Why is the UK facing water shortages despite record rainfall?

[debtlessmanc]

Just now, kzb said:

Thousands if not millions of us queue up to experience those temperatures abroad every year.

Cold produces more excess deaths than heat in the UK.

Abroad - where they have air conditioning ….

[Trampa501]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

Abroad - where they have air conditioning ….

I think most Brits already struggle with the leccy bill.

[TheChangeIsCast]

8 hours ago, Nick Cash said:

Yes, typo. Clearly 76. The late 70s were a combination of dry winters and hot summers. Hence the summer droughts.

 

Historically the UK has never really needed to store water except for the SE as sufficient rain falls across most of the larger population areas. How much of the rain that falls in the Lake District is captured? Not much I don’t think. Similarly North Wales. Clearly Wales has some huge reservoirs but most of the rainfall feeds straight back into the sea. The Dee and the Severn are the main reservoir catchment areas. The rivers leading to the Conwy estuary are barely used. Or indeed those West of the Wye (source of the Severn).

I live, in South Midlands, fairly close to a reservoir, fed from The Trent I think (via pipes). Most of the capacity is moved further on. Don’t even think our water comes from it. Not sure whether Severn Trent water is used to fill reservoirs for Thames Water. It would make sense. I assume that was the rationale behind the proposed reservoir at Didcot.

We collect enough water here in North Wales to cater for our population for circa 650k people. North Wales is pretty sparsely populated outside of NE Wales, and there are lots of small to medium sized reservoirs in Snowdonia supplying the towns and villages. 

[kzb]

2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Abroad - where they have air conditioning ….

Even I have aircon in my car.  We have it at work also.  Supermarkets and many stores have it.  They sell portable aircon units in Home Bargains these days.

Anyhow, most people don't go on holiday so they can lie around in a hotel room for a fortnight, with a TV they can't understand for company.  

Clearly after last summer, with lethal heat and out of control wildfires in Europe, none of us will be going there.  We'll all stop here, where it topped out at 18 degrees, nice and cool.  In fact all those Europeans will be heading up here, to escape their terrible climate.

[kzb]

Just now, TheChangeIsCast said:

We collect enough water here in North Wales to cater for our population for circa 650k people. North Wales is pretty sparsely populated outside of NE Wales, and there are lots of small to medium sized reservoirs in Snowdonia supplying the towns and villages. 

Actually a lot of your water is going to Liverpool.  You have an excess, as I am sure lots of western areas do also.

[TheChangeIsCast]

3 minutes ago, kzb said:

Even I have aircon in my car.  We have it at work also.  Supermarkets and many stores have it.  They sell portable aircon units in Home Bargains these days.

Anyhow, most people don't go on holiday so they can lie around in a hotel room for a fortnight, with a TV they can't understand for company.  

Clearly after last summer, with lethal heat and out of control wildfires in Europe, none of us will be going there.  We'll all stop here, where it topped out at 18 degrees, nice and cool.  In fact all those Europeans will be heading up here, to escape their terrible climate.

All that will happen is many people will look to do Europe earlier or later in the season (April-Mid June), and Sep-Nov, and avoid July and August. Those that can't avoid July/August, can just go to Atlantic islands (Madeira, Canaries) where it is generally a lot cooler than the Med. Certainly that's what we did last year (a pleasant 27 deg in Gran Canaria whilst half the Greek islands were on fire), and are doing again this year (Madeira early July, La Palma in October).

[TheChangeIsCast]

22 minutes ago, kzb said:

Actually a lot of your water is going to Liverpool.  You have an excess, as I am sure lots of western areas do also.

Yes, of course. Llyn Brenig and Llyn Celyn both supply Merseyside as well as the more densely populated parts of NE Wales. Llyn Alwen supplies Birkenhead, Llyn Vyrnwy Birmingham. All of the other North Wales population centres outside of NE Wales are mainly supplied by a myriad of smaller and medium size reservoirs, their's tons of them in Snowdonia. Llyn Colwyd for example supplies the whole of Conwy and Colwyn Bay. Llandudo is supplied by Llyn Dulyn and Melynllyn. So like I say, our population is catered for, and we already supply some of the big population areas in Western England, so there's no need for more in Wales IMO. I don't think any more welsh villages and residents being forcibly removed would be tolerated to be honest after the whole Llyn Celyn / Liverpool Corporation thing, not without throwing petrol over the flames of Welsh nationalism, which has already seen an upsurge since 2016. Northern England, and Scotland, should also have plentiful water of their own. It's mainly the SE that's the problem, as far as I can tell. If the wealthiest part of England wants more water, they can afford to pay for a de-salination plant or two I reckon.

Edited April 2 by TheChangeIsCast

[Depressedpedro]

2 hours ago, kzb said:

 

 

 

Perhaps a bit disingenuous given the main thrust of sustained heat by in large in 2022 hit after the end of that chart. (August joint 3rd hottest ever I believe.) Whereas 76 was generally cooler after that period.

That 76 2-3 week period though is still by far the hottest max period, nothing has come even close to that spell.

[kzb]

17 minutes ago, Depressedpedro said:

Perhaps a bit disingenuous given the main thrust of sustained heat by in large in 2022 hit after the end of that chart. (August joint 3rd hottest ever I believe.) Whereas 76 was generally cooler after that period.

That 76 2-3 week period though is still by far the hottest max period, nothing has come even close to that spell.

Didn't the 1976 heat last until the final week of August ?  I certainly recall the crane flies, which tend to come out in August.

Aug 2022 might've been warmer of course.

[kzb]

28 minutes ago, TheChangeIsCast said:

If the wealthiest part of England wants more water, they can afford to pay for a de-salination plant or two I reckon.

Really we should be able to sell it to them. 

There ought to be a deduction off our bills for water sold to the SE.  Getting more expensive when in shortage obviously.

[onlooker]

23 minutes ago, kzb said:

Didn't the 1976 heat last until the final week of August ?  I certainly recall the crane flies, which tend to come out in August.

Aug 2022 might've been warmer of course.

I'm not sure about the heat, but the drought lasted until the end of August 76. I believe it was a few days after the then government appointed its first drought minister that the first rain fell. So he was made redundant.

I was a student working in Greenland in 1976, and the rain systems which missed the UK, went further north, and the summer in West Greenland was unusually cold and wet.

[Nick Cash]

1 hour ago, TheChangeIsCast said:

Yes, of course. Llyn Brenig and Llyn Celyn both supply Merseyside as well as the more densely populated parts of NE Wales. Llyn Alwen supplies Birkenhead, Llyn Vyrnwy Birmingham. All of the other North Wales population centres outside of NE Wales are mainly supplied by a myriad of smaller and medium size reservoirs, their's tons of them in Snowdonia. Llyn Colwyd for example supplies the whole of Conwy and Colwyn Bay. Llandudo is supplied by Llyn Dulyn and Melynllyn. So like I say, our population is catered for, and we already supply some of the big population areas in Western England, so there's no need for more in Wales IMO. I don't think any more welsh villages and residents being forcibly removed would be tolerated to be honest after the whole Llyn Celyn / Liverpool Corporation thing, not without throwing petrol over the flames of Welsh nationalism, which has already seen an upsurge since 2016. Northern England, and Scotland, should also have plentiful water of their own. It's mainly the SE that's the problem, as far as I can tell. If the wealthiest part of England wants more water, they can afford to pay for a de-salination plant or two I reckon.

 Fair enough. But I wasn’t asking for more reservoirs. I’m aware of Llyn Celyn and how divisive it is/was.

I do a lot of walking in North Wales - love the area.

I think we could move water from North Wales and replenish existing reservoirs, both in England and Wales from rainfall that otherwise runs into the sea. Especially if the west coast is going to get wetter and wetter. Loads of opportunities for hydroelectric power too. Surely using Wales natural resources effectively is a good idea.

[onlooker]

7 hours ago, Nick Cash said:

 Fair enough. But I wasn’t asking for more reservoirs. I’m aware of Llyn Celyn and how divisive it is/was.

I do a lot of walking in North Wales - love the area.

I think we could move water from North Wales and replenish existing reservoirs, both in England and Wales from rainfall that otherwise runs into the sea. Especially if the west coast is going to get wetter and wetter. Loads of opportunities for hydroelectric power too. Surely using Wales natural resources effectively is a good idea.

It would be a way for Wales to repay the huge subsidy paid them by English taxpayers. But emotions can be easily whipped up. Llyn Celyn is often cited as a flooded village, yet it was smaller than a hamlet - about three cottages and a chapel were actually lost, if you look  at old maps.

[winkie]

12 hours ago, kzb said:

Thousands if not millions of us queue up to experience those temperatures abroad every year.

Cold produces more excess deaths than heat in the UK.

That is why there are people that flock to sunnier brighter healthier climates, when the weather here is dark cold and miserable ...... Short flight, less than and faster than a train journey. Saving on fuel costs, water costs, food costs at home, plenty of fresh produce including fish.....if choose the right accomodation, right place the rent can be very low that includes energy and water sometimes produced from the sun solar panels, WiFi included .......British summers are the best however.

[TheChangeIsCast]

1 hour ago, onlooker said:

It would be a way for Wales to repay the huge subsidy paid them by English taxpayers. But emotions can be easily whipped up. Llyn Celyn is often cited as a flooded village, yet it was smaller than a hamlet - about three cottages and a chapel were actually lost, if you look  at old maps.

I am Welsh, but I'm not a Welsh nationalist by the way, my comments were made half jokingly, but if you're going  to invade, occupy and annex a country, you can't complain about having to subsidise it, we are the original Britons after all, you lot came from Europe and pushed us out 😉 But in all seriousness, there has been a noticeably big uptick in nationalism in recent years, and I doubt flooding any more Welsh valleys to supply England could be done without whipping up a lot of anti-English crap, which I obviously don't want to see.

[kzb]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

That is why there are people that flock to sunnier brighter healthier climates, when the weather here is dark cold and miserable ...... Short flight, less than and faster than a train journey. Saving on fuel costs, water costs, food costs at home, plenty of fresh produce including fish.....if choose the right accomodation, right place the rent can be very low that includes energy and water sometimes produced from the sun solar panels, WiFi included .......British summers are the best however.

But surely we cannot risk going to Europe after last summer.  According to news reports it was verging on uninhabitable.

[onlooker]

1 hour ago, TheChangeIsCast said:

I am Welsh, but I'm not a Welsh nationalist by the way, my comments were made half jokingly, but if you're going  to invade, occupy and annex a country, you can't complain about having to subsidise it, we are the original Britons after all, you lot came from Europe and pushed us out 😉 But in all seriousness, there has been a noticeably big uptick in nationalism in recent years, and I doubt flooding any more Welsh valleys to supply England could be done without whipping up a lot of anti-English crap, which I obviously don't want to see.

Every part of the UK has to do its bit. No region can expect to be carried by other taxpayers for long. Most high ground Welsh valleys are of no economic value unless used for storing water.

[debtlessmanc]

19 minutes ago, kzb said:

But surely we cannot risk going to Europe after last summer.  According to news reports it was verging on uninhabitable.

I only go in June or September anyway - too hot for me.

[TheChangeIsCast]

8 minutes ago, onlooker said:

Every part of the UK has to do its bit. No region can expect to be carried by other taxpayers for long. Most high ground Welsh valleys are of no economic value unless used for storing water.

We are doing our bit, we supply Birmingham, and the whole of Merseyside including Birkenhead, the Wirral, and Liverpool itself. We also supply places in Herefordshire, and Gloucestershire. That's a lot of people. I'd be in favour of flooding economically worthless valleys in the Peak district and the Lake district, as well as the Yorkshire moors, to supply other areas of England. Basically, England has enough of it's own hilly and mountainous regions, so flood those instead. The lake district is just full of posh knobbers and their range rover sports chelsea tractors anyway. Geographically, it's probably easier to transport water from the Peak to the SE, than from Wales anyway. For example, you could create a vast reservoir if you built a big dam and turned the edale valley into a reservoir, it would have some depth to it as well.

[Casual-observer]

Kielder reservoir was built in part to supply a heavy industry in Teesside that's no longer there. It's also of much better quality than the hard water in south England. 

The excess in this country could easily be captured and distributed with some decent investment and will power. 

The simple fact is it's not in their interest to offer a cheap resource, everything is to be milked for profit. 

Edited April 3 by Casual-observer

[winkie]

3 hours ago, kzb said:

But surely we cannot risk going to Europe after last summer.  According to news reports it was verging on uninhabitable.

No really nice..... Cyprus or Malta is popular if can only speak English......thousands of Brits live all over Europe......their kids are born there, lots retire to the sun.....as popular as ever, lots of different nationalities, Swedish, Dutch, Norwegian, Polish, German.......all get along together, most people these days especially the young will speak English well, they learn from a young age at school, many WFH...all good.

[kzb]

17 minutes ago, winkie said:

No really nice..... Cyprus or Malta is popular if can only speak English......thousands of Brits live all over Europe......their kids are born there, lots retire to the sun.....as popular as ever, lots of different nationalities, Swedish, Dutch, Norwegian, Polish, German.......all get along together, most people these days especially the young will speak English well, they learn from a young age at school, many WFH...all good.

All  very nice but we're talking about the climate.  We are being told that summers will be unbearable, with the land reduced to ashes every year.

[kzb]

3 hours ago, Casual-observer said:

The simple fact is it's not in their interest to offer a cheap resource, everything is to be milked for profit. 

Absolutely.  No business would pay for resources that are only used every (say) ten years, and are a cost the rest of the time.

On water supply, it'd be cheaper to cut people off, and in the sewage overflows it'd be cheaper to pay the fines.

There is likely an equation somewhere which tells you where the balance point, between resource provision and revenue loss/fines, lies.

It's a business.  It exists purely to return shareholder value.

[winkie]

32 minutes ago, kzb said:

All  very nice but we're talking about the climate.  We are being told that summers will be unbearable, with the land reduced to ashes every year.

That can happen anywhere.......snow on the mountains with a week of continuous rain, sun out, water still flowing down from the hills to refill reservoirs, countries now should have been planning ahead to cover for all situations, or do nothing and hope for the best.....

https://www.businessinsider.com/salicrop-ag-tech-startup-grow-crops-salt-water-2024-3?op=1

Edited April 3 by winkie

[kzb]

4 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

I only go in June or September anyway - too hot for me.

Lot's have to go in the school/college/university vacations.

As an aside, did you notice that USS owns 20% of Thames Water ?  And that no dividends have been paid to shareholders since 2017 ?  That puts a different angle on it.