This Chip story doing the rounds

[Nomadd]

5 hours ago, slawek said:

Why wouldn't you buy new 4090? 

The price.

[byron78]

1 hour ago, shlomo said:

They might not want more rights, definitely they will want more money 

I've never been. Couple of grandkids have and I think I'm largely basing that assumption on the attitudes of younger Chinese they've told me about. Could be miles off.

 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

7 hours ago, athom said:

I remember people flogging their old 2080ti for cheap on ebay just before expecting to buy a 30 series. Oh dear. Still now there seems to be a trickle of 30 series and same things happened with the 40 series release. Scan have a couple of used 2080ti for sale at more than their original new price i think https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-nvidia-gaming/2779/2840/2945/2947/3506 Impossible to judge if moores law is over when supply is creating a situation like this.

Scan are great!

[Maghull Mike]

https://thediplomat.com/2022/08/chinas-semiconductor-breakthrough/

[TerryBoi]

16 hours ago, Maghull Mike said:

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/what-annihilation-looks-biden-export-controls-wreaking-havoc-chinas-chip-industry

 

I seen this in many places, they say its like Japan getting its oil cut off & leading to Peal Harbor..........but while i could see long term effects i can't see why this would have instant effects. I mean it may slow R+D but why would it effect production?

What am i missing here?

Mike

This shit is getting serious and someone is gonna get hurt.

https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-war/article/3196270/apple-drops-chinas-ymtc-memory-chip-supplier-amid-us-trade-sanctions

[Maghull Mike]

Having done some reading China is NOT gong to be that hurt by this, US producers will!

Mike

[shlomo]

11 minutes ago, Maghull Mike said:

Having done some reading China is NOT gong to be that hurt by this, US producers will!

Mike

Both will get hurt

[Maghull Mike]

29 minutes ago, shlomo said:

Both will get hurt

Yes, but its NOT the Knock out blow it is said to be

[shlomo]

29 minutes ago, Maghull Mike said:

Yes, but its NOT the Knock out blow it is said to be

It will give China the impetus to try to get results in that area

[slawek]

2 hours ago, Nomadd said:

The price.

It is adequate to the performance, twice faster than 3080 plus better RT and DSLL.

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, TerryBoi said:

This shit is getting serious and someone is gonna get hurt.

https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-war/article/3196270/apple-drops-chinas-ymtc-memory-chip-supplier-amid-us-trade-sanctions

Coma Joe is now America's CEO. 😆

[shlomo]

2 hours ago, byron78 said:

I've never been. Couple of grandkids have and I think I'm largely basing that assumption on the attitudes of younger Chinese they've told me about. Could be miles off.

 

Some time we assume, when ever I meet black people I find myself saying  how much racism is wrong I have always thought this was a conversation that they want to have, in 50 years no black person has said that this is a subject matter they do not have a viewpoint on, whenever you meet Greek or Turkish people you talk about how beastly the other one is.

Maybe the Chinese assume we want to talk about democracy and human rights and are humouring us..

[A.steve]

9 hours ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Even if Moore's Law was over and zero improvements to IC performance are made in the future, it will take years before current microprocessor designs are fully and efficiently utilised in software.

The increase in hardware power has caused a massive amount of laziness in efficient software development.

With stuff like flash memory/storage it's obviously a bit different.

Of course.  If you were to believe Kolmogorov (who claimed a law of full employment for programmers... because he proved it impossible to ever show that any program is maximally efficient) then 'take years' would be the understatement of eternity.

Something I find interesting... is that, in at least some sense, memory/storage is not different.  Just as there's an (effectively) infinite process of improvement for algorithms, there's a mathematically similar argument for data structures.

There is no doubt at all, in my mind, that existing hardware can be made to perform orders of magnitude better (for typical tasks) far easier than new hardware can be designed and implemented.  The problem is that there's such a lot of it - and it's such awful quality.

[zugzwang]

5 hours ago, 17 Year Veteran said:

Well, this site has been predicting a house price for longer than that. 
 

And yet here we are. 

There was a nationwide crash 2009-11. Try again.

[Staffsknot]

@zugzwang there's a lot of sources saying the same and Nikkei Asia is not known for fantastical nonsense.

Lots of businesses seeing this as a cue to change tack

Also

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/17/hong-kong-protester-attacked-at-chinese-consulate-in-manchester

You made no comment considering how vocal you normally are about right to protest being undermined...

Edited October 17, 2022 by Staffsknot

[Nomadd]

3 hours ago, slawek said:

It is adequate to the performance, twice faster than 3080 plus better RT and DSLL.

It's 2.5 times the price of a two year old 3080. And it's DLSS (not DSLL) change is the fake frames introduced in v3.0.

It's aimed at the suckers. Just like the vastly overpriced 4080 16GB. The public reception of the 4080 12GB (and it's embarrassing withdrawal from the market now) shows you that even Nvidia can't rely on fleecing those suckers forever.

Anyhow, this is HPC, not Overclockers UK, so let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[17 Year Veteran]

16 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

@zugzwang there's a lot of sources saying the same and Nikkei Asia is not known for fantastical nonsense.

Lots of businesses seeing this as a cue to change tack

No thanks

[17 Year Veteran]

1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

There was a nationwide crash 2009-11. Try again.

The pundit on this site who has done the best over the last 17 years is TTRTR. 

We are deep into stopped clock territory here. 
 

[Staffsknot]

28 minutes ago, 17 Year Veteran said:

No thanks

No idea what you are saying

[slawek]

48 minutes ago, Nomadd said:

It's 2.5 times the price of a two year old 3080. And it's DLSS (not DSLL) change is the fake frames introduced in v3.0.

It's aimed at the suckers. Just like the vastly overpriced 4080 16GB. The public reception of the 4080 12GB (and it's embarrassing withdrawal from the market now) shows you that even Nvidia can't rely on fleecing those suckers forever.

Anyhow, this is HPC, not Overclockers UK, so let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You are right 2.5 is a little too much vs 3080 but 2.2-2.3x would be fair. I know that DLSS 3.0 is mostly gimmick but it is still better than 2.0 in 3080. I agree 4080s are rather bad deals.    

[shlomo]

Korea Inc. faces an uphill battle as a push in the United States for economic security is taking its toll on companies dependent on China for manufacturing or for the supply of materials and components.  
 
The U.S. is passing laws and enacting executive orders to bring the manufacturing of products important to national interest back to U.S. soil. Chips, batteries, electric vehicles(EV), solar cells and certain biotechnology products are on the list, and China is the main country of concern.  
 
A number of Korean companies have been affected already. 

Hyundai Motor’s EV sales in the U.S. have fallen since the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), as its EV models won’t be qualified for the subsidies under the act.  
 
Samsung Electronics and SK hynix are having to rethink their use of China as a major manufacturing base for semiconductors as a number of U.S. rules are making it difficult to transfer key technologies to China, which is the second largest source of memory chips for these companies after Korea.    
 
Korea feels betrayed by its ally and is fighting for workarounds that would allow its companies to continue sourcing heavily from China. It is now engaged in an intense lobbying effort to get the rules watered down or waivers for its companies.
 
This anniversary special will explore the impact of the U.S.-China tech war on Korean business and map out ways to curtail the damage. It is based on interviews with academics and researchers.  
 
Some argue that the dependence on China needs to be reexamined, while others argue that the Yoon Suk-yeol administration should come up with sizable financial incentives and tax cuts to attract manufacturing facilities for chips and high-tech products to Korea.

https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2022/10/16/business/economy/Korea-Samsung-Electronics-Hyundai-Motor/20221016180011925.html

[shlomo]

SINGAPORE—American workers hold key positions throughout China’s domestic chip industry, helping manufacturers develop new chips to catch up with foreign rivals. Now, those workers are in limbo under new U.S. export control rules that prohibit U.S. citizens from supporting China’s advanced chip development.

At least 43 senior executives working with 16 publicly listed Chinese semiconductor companies are American citizens, according to an examination of company filings and official websites by The Wall Street Journal. Many of them hold C-suite titles, from chief executive to vice president and chairman.

Almost all of the executives moved to China’s chip industry after spending years working in Silicon Valley for U.S. chip makers or semiconductor equipment firms, according to the companies’ filings. Their work histories reflect the free flow of talent across companies and borders over the years. Some were drawn to China through initiatives including the country’s “Thousand Talents” program, which was introduced in 2008 by the Chinese government to boost research standards.

The Commerce Department this month imposed export controls over an array of chips and chip-making technology, marking the U.S.’s biggest salvo against China’s tech industry so far.

In a rare move that caught the industry off guard, it also sought to restrict the use of American know-how by barring U.S. persons from supporting China’s advanced chip development or production without a license. The department defines U.S. persons to include U.S. citizens, permanent residents, people who live in the U.S., and American companies.

everal companies, including Beijing-based Naura Technology Group Co. and Dutch equipment maker ASML Holding NV, have suspended their American employees from continuing work that could now be restricted while they seek clarity on the rules, the companies have said.

Restricting Chinese companies’ access to U.S. talent delivers a direct blow to the heart of China’s attempt to move up the technology chain, said Dane Chamorro, a Washington, D.C.-based head of global risk and intelligence at business consulting firm Control Risks.

“The technology is nothing without the people there to make it work,” he said.

For many senior executives at Chinese companies, the rule will likely force them to decide between their jobs and their U.S. citizenship or permanent resident status, Mr. Chamorro said. The rules require all U.S. persons to apply for a license to continue working in Chinese advanced chip development.

Among prominent U.S. executives in China is Gerald Yin, founder and chairman of Advanced Micro-Fabrication Equipment Inc., or AMEC, one of China’s largest chip-making equipment vendors. He and six current senior managers and core researchers at AMEC are American citizens, according to the company’s website and its latest annual report.

Mr. Yin, whose company is listed on the Shanghai Stock Exchange, spent almost 20 years working at Silicon Valley companies including Intel Corp. and Applied Materials Inc., where he was chief technology officer of its Asian unit before he left to found AMEC.

The Shanghai-based company, which makes etching machines key to turning silicon wafers into semiconductors, is viewed as a rising national champion in the sector, though it still lags behind global leaders such as Lam Research Corp. and Applied Materials. In its latest annual report, the company said it received more than $50 million in subsidies from the Chinese government in 2021.

AMEC and Mr. Yin didn’t respond to requests for comment.

Other companies that face being affected include Chinese flash memory chip designer GigaDevice Semiconductor Inc., an up-and-coming designer of flash chips used in automobiles and personal computers. GigaDevice’s deputy chairman, Shu Qingming, and a director, Cheng Taiyi, hold U.S. passports, the company’s latest annual report says.

GigaDevice didn’t respond to requests for comment.

KingSemi Co., which produces the most advanced coating and development equipment in China and supplies giants including Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., told investors that it is assessing the impact of the new directives. An executive director, Chen Xinglong, holds a U.S. green card, the company’s latest annual report says.

 

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

@zugzwang there's a lot of sources saying the same and Nikkei Asia is not known for fantastical nonsense.

Lots of businesses seeing this as a cue to change tack

Also

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/17/hong-kong-protester-attacked-at-chinese-consulate-in-manchester

You made no comment considering how vocal you normally are about right to protest being undermined...

 

You are the very last person on here qualified to make a complaint about the physical assault of innocent protesters.

[Staffsknot]

@zugzwang ducks the question, tries to claim again without evidence that I was involved in this 0 out of 10 my evasive and lacking in any case again poster.

Btw those weren't protesters.

Have we hit a nerve that you jump to the pics, insults and BS again?

Also those individuals were rightly charged for assaulting those individuals and got jail time for their heinous acts - I fully edorse that.

I trust you must therefore support the charging or expulsion of those assaulting the protestor at the consulate and condemn the atrocious behaviour of these Consulate staff. Otherwise you're a massive hypocrite coopting pictures of Iraqi detainee suffering for your own pathetic purposes - not for the first time.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Staffsknot

[shlomo]

• Intel (INTC) was down 56%;
• Micron (MU) was down 50%;
• Nvidia (NVDA) was down 69% (its products having been directly targeted by the Biden administration); and
• AMD (AMD) (also directly targeted) was down 67%.

Among US semiconductor equipment companies:

• Applied Materials (AMAT) was down 57%;
• Lam Research (LRCX) was down 59%; and
• KLA (KLAC) was down 45%.

Outside the United States, ASML (ASML) of the Netherlands was down 59% from 52-week high to 52-week low. Japanese equipment makers Tokyo Electron (TYO 8035) and Screen Holdings (TYO 7735) were down 50% and 44%, respectively.

Japanese semiconductor makers Renesas (TYO 5723) and Rohm (TYO 6963) were down only 27% and 28%, but they focus on automotive and industrial semiconductors, not the artificial intelligence and high-performance computing devices that obsess the Biden administration. Their 52-week lows were last March.

SMIC (HKG 0981), China’s top IC foundry, was down 40% while TSMC (TPE 2330) was down 43% – a relatively strong performance under the circumstances.