Universal Basic Income (UBI)

[winkie]

20 hours ago, flb said:

Of course they go to food banks, why wouldn't they? It's free. Do you think they're on benefits because they mind free stuff?

People are free to give to food banks....I have never seen a well off person in a food bank, they have to have a reason to go there.....even if they had a stash in a bank why judge them.....free giving = free taking.

Nobody is judging you, be grateful you feel satisfied.

[steve99]

13 minutes ago, flb said:

I don't read that rag. I actively avoid ever clicking on any link that leads there.

It's got nothing to do with them. 

It is however an identikit opionion, not a fact. Also you have to have a referral to access food banks.

[iamnumerate]

26 minutes ago, winkie said:

People are free to give to food banks....I have never seen a well off person in a food bank, they have to have a reason to go there.....even if they had a stash in a bank why judge them.....free giving = free taking.

Nobody is judging you, be grateful you feel satisfied.

How do you know by looking at people if they are well off or not? 

 

[flb]

17 minutes ago, steve99 said:

It is however an identikit opionion, not a fact. Also you have to have a referral to access food banks.

Other people are free to have similar opinions. I don't see a problem with that.

Getting a referral might be a problem for someone with a job and urgent things to so. When you don't work, though, it's not a big deal. You go and get one. 

26 minutes ago, winkie said:

People are free to give to food banks....I have never seen a well off person in a food bank, they have to have a reason to go there.

Meh. You could see them there. I know people who work for banks...and they volunteer at food banks.

But of course you won't see me there. Why would I queue for some tinned tomatoes when I can go and buy some at any supermarket if I really need some?

What I'm saying is that people are going to use food banks simply because they exist and they're "free". If you asked them to work for a day in order to get a parcel, 90% of them would find better options.

[iamnumerate]

15 hours ago, A17 said:

Okay... So to summarize, there seems to be three general plans.

1. The Soviet. Everybody is given enough UBI to live off (£10k pa), as well as a free/cheap place to live. However, there is no real incentive to work or better oneself. The scheme is funded by taxing the rapidly shrinking useful part of the economy into oblivion, or by printing money. Expect long queues to hand over your weekly allowance for a loaf of bread.

2. The Simple Concept. The current welfare and pensions system is scrapped, and the money currently spent is split evenly between the population. No arguments, no exemptions, no special cases. I calculated earlier that would be £87pw for the entire population, or £111pw if only over-18s received it. Not really enough to live off, so if you are unemployed, or unfortunate enough to be unable to work (though disability, old age) you are in trouble. Which leads on to Plan 3....

3. The Gordon Brown. Start with Plan 2, but add expansions for certain categories. The elderly get additional money (we could call it a "pension"). If you are disabled and unable to work, you can get a top up, but of course this would require a government agency to assess and check who is deserving of the top up. Maybe an additional payment for those who have recently lost their job, or those with children?  The wealthy - do they really need their UBI? Suddenly, the scheme is back to where we are now, either with people paying higher taxes only to have it returned as UBI (less the government worker handling fee), with the UBI reduced to a nominal £10 pw.

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

As UBI is low it would not be that many hours - it could be just keeping several streets free of dog's mess for x hours a week?  Or beaches free of plastic if you live near the sea.

[Social Justice League]

1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

As UBI is low it would not be that many hours - it could be just keeping several streets free of dog's mess for x hours a week?  Or beaches free of plastic if you live near the sea.

Yeah agree.  There must be enough useful work for everyone to do, rather than filling Costa Coffee cups for fat people.

[winkie]

3 minutes ago, flb said:

Other people are free to have similar opinions. I don't see a problem with that.

Getting a referral might be a problem for someone with a job and urgent things to so. When you don't work, though, it's not a big deal. You go and get one. 

Meh. You could see them there. I know people who work for banks...and they volunteer at food banks.

But of course you won't see me there. Why would I queue for some tinned tomatoes when I can go and buy some at any supermarket if I really need some?

What I'm saying is that people are going to use food banks simply because they exist and they're "free". If you asked them to work for a day in order to get a parcel, 90% of them would find better options.

Why you picking on those less fortunate than yourself, look above your head and see what some are getting away with.....free will.

Good apples, bruised apples and rotten apples.

[flb]

2 minutes ago, winkie said:

Why you picking on those less fortunate than yourself

I'm not. What makes you think I am?

[Social Justice League]

2 minutes ago, winkie said:

Why you picking on those less fortunate than yourself, look above your head and see what some are getting away with.....free will.

Good apples, bruised apples and rotten apples.

Yes indeed, western capitalism is fooking corrupt from the top down.

Many greedy bent b4stards should be done for treason imo.

[winkie]

7 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

How do you know by looking at people if they are well off or not? 

 

You can't, but you can by what they say....that is why anyone who visits a good bank should be treated equally.

I think the country should be ashamed that food banks are something that many now depend on.

[longgone]

3 minutes ago, Social Justice League said:

Yeah agree.  There must be enough useful work for everyone to do, rather than filling Costa Coffee cups for fat people.

i dunno i was told by an agency that i`m unemployable as i stepped off the hamster wheel for too long, this was after asking them why they thought the locality of the job was irrelevant to its pay and pay was based on skill set solely. 🤣

yeah sure it is. 

[flb]

6 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

As UBI is low it would not be that many hours - it could be just keeping several streets free of dog's mess for x hours a week?  Or beaches free of plastic if you live near the sea.

Erm, two reasons:

- someone has to pay you to do a job. Who? Councils etc are complaining about lacking funds. So...

- some people on benefits CAN'T work (disabilities, sickness etc). 

[iamnumerate]

1 minute ago, flb said:

Erm, two reasons:

- someone has to pay you to do a job. Who? Councils etc are complaining about lacking funds. So...

- some people on benefits CAN'T work (disabilities, sickness etc). 

I was assuming that if we do have a UBI so therefore, the money would already be paid.

 

I agree with you about people who are sick - although that needs to be checked more.  I used to do martial arts with someone on sickness benefit - she was the best student there!

[winkie]

Just now, flb said:

I'm not. What makes you think I am?

..... if they are better off than you but they are happy helping themselves to free food, that is for them to live with.

Like already said just anyone can't turn up and help themselves, they have to be referred.

[flb]

6 minutes ago, winkie said:

.... if they are better off than you but they are happy helping themselves to free food, that is for them to live with.

I never suggested that either.

All I said was that people use them because they (food banks) exist.

You've got all the time in the world and you can either work for food or you can get it free of charge if you go through some hoops.

Of course a lot of people are going to choose the free option - because it only costs time and time is what they've got.

I don't envy them, I don't look down etc. What I'm saying is that food banks are the kind of "product" that create the demand. Child poverty was much higher, as example, before Tony Blair and food banks weren't a thing. Did children starve in Britain in 1980, for example? No. Were food banks a thing? No.

But as soon as they re-appeared (there were some in the previous century), they created a demand for themselves, a demand that simply keeps growing because they exist.

Edited September 4, 2020 by flb

[winkie]

2 minutes ago, flb said:

I never suggested that either.

All I said was that people use them because they (food banks) exist.

You've got all the time in the world and you can either work for food or you can get it free of charge if you go through some hoops.

Of course a lot of people are going to choose the free option - because it only costs time and time is what they've got.

I don't envy them, I don't look down etc. What I'm saying is that food banks are the kind of "product" that create the demand.

What did I say....I said there will be a few people that will take advantage of any system....top to the bottom...so why demonise the rest.

The food often will be thrown away by the big supermarkets, suppliers and producers near sell by unsold food, stale bread that can toast, have you seen the amount of food we waste..... other donations have been given, when something is given to give away it is given away as seen fit by the recipient..

I am not proud there are food banks....but I hate waste.

[A17]

1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

As UBI is low it would not be that many hours - it could be just keeping several streets free of dog's mess for x hours a week?  Or beaches free of plastic if you live near the sea.

Basically unenforceable. Nothing to stop people ticking the box to say "Yes - I spent 5+ hours a week picking litter". Would the government really supervise it? And it would no longer be a Universal Basic Income.

[A17]

57 minutes ago, flb said:

But as soon as they re-appeared (there were some in the previous century), they created a demand for themselves, a demand that simply keeps growing because they exist.

There is always going to be a demand for free stuff, particularly food.

[flb]

8 minutes ago, A17 said:

There is always going to be a demand for free stuff, particularly food.

Exactly what I was saying. People working with food banks go like "omg, it's shameful, the demand rises year on year". Well yeah, you're the ones creating the demand...

[iamnumerate]

27 minutes ago, A17 said:

Basically unenforceable. Nothing to stop people ticking the box to say "Yes - I spent 5+ hours a week picking litter". Would the government really supervise it? And it would no longer be a Universal Basic Income.

I don't want a basic income - I want a basic job.  I don't think it is unenforcable - tricky but not impossible and probably cheaper than the current benefits system (as a lot of people wouldn't claim). You could give people an app on their phones and use it to monitor that they spend x hours per week in those places.  

[iamnumerate]

17 minutes ago, flb said:

Exactly what I was saying. People working with food banks go like "omg, it's shameful, the demand rises year on year". Well yeah, you're the ones creating the demand...

I agree with that.

[iamnumerate]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

What did I say....I said there will be a few people that will take advantage of any system....top to the bottom...so why demonise the rest.

The food often will be thrown away by the big supermarkets, suppliers and producers near sell by unsold food, stale bread that can toast, have you seen the amount of food we waste..... other donations have been given, when something is given to give away it is given away as seen fit by the recipient..

I am not proud there are food banks....but I hate waste.

How do you know that it is just a few?  I personally don't know the percentage.

[A17]

35 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I don't want a basic income - I want a basic job.  I don't think it is unenforcable - tricky but not impossible and probably cheaper than the current benefits system (as a lot of people wouldn't claim). You could give people an app on their phones and use it to monitor that they spend x hours per week in those places.  

What you are suggesting is basically workfare. Sending the unemployed and unemployable to half heartedly push a broom around (or more likely stand around playing on their phones) in order to receive their benefits.

The Soviet joke - "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" springs to mind.

[iamnumerate]

1 hour ago, A17 said:

What you are suggesting is basically workfare. Sending the unemployed and unemployable to half heartedly push a broom around (or more likely stand around playing on their phones) in order to receive their benefits.

The Soviet joke - "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" springs to mind.

Yes - I think workfare is the solution.

I agree with you that it could be abused - but surely less than the current system.

 

[flb]

1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Yes - I think workfare is the solution.

I agree with you that it could be abused - but surely less than the current system.

 

What I'd like to know is why nobody takes into account the other option: 0 type of benefits. No UBI, no UC, nothing. Now, it's not that I hate anyone, because I don't. I just don't think that I owe anyone a living, that's all.