Turned Out Nice Again Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 US court to decide if Alzheimer's patient was able to consent to sex Henry Rayhons, 78, an Iowa politician, is on trial charged with sex abuse after paying conjugal visits to his septuagenarian wife, who suffered from Alzheimer's disease, in a nursing home http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11536863/US-court-to-decide-if-Alzheimers-patient-was-able-to-consent-to-sex.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 If it was a gay couple, then no problem. US is totally ******ed up in some places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 So what happens if he says before the Alzheimer's really took hold she requested that they always have sex 3 times a week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 If it was a gay couple, then no problem. US is totally ******ed up in some places. As english law stands, he would also be charged here So what happens if he says before the Alzheimer's really took hold she requested that they always have sex 3 times a week? Consent must be given every time and the person must know what they are consenting to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 As english law stands, he would also be charged here Consent must be given every time and the person must know what they are consenting to He Could be charged here. In the US case, the third party was the complainant. The defence is, in the UK, that the accused does reasonably believe that the other party consents. If this law is the same in the US, he only has to show she whispered yes please. Its up to the Jury then to decide, again on the circumstances, whether this was likely or not, or whatever defence he comes up with, was likely or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 He Could be charged here. In the US case, the third party was the complainant. The defence is, in the UK, that the accused does reasonably believe that the other party consents. If this law is the same in the US, he only has to show she whispered yes please. Its up to the Jury then to decide, again on the circumstances, whether this was likely or not, or whatever defence he comes up with, was likely or not. The sexual offences acts in the UK are a bloody mess, compounded with case law in attempts to 'clarify' matters The fact a complainant is a 3rd party is neither here nor there - the authorities have been made aware of a possible offence. Heaven forbid, if a baby was abused and unable to complain, hopefully a nurse in a maternity ward would complain and the authorities would charge She may have whispered yes - in her mind what was she whispering yes to - the point of law (in the uk at least) is it must be informed consent - and he must reasonably believe she knows what she is consenting to. Like i say the law is an absolute minefield in this area. In this country such a case would most definitely come down to the jury - america I dunno. I would guess it comes down to how GaGa the missus is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 what is interesting in this case,according to the news report, is the question of the nursing home interference. The article states the lady was put in the nursing home because she deteriorated. for some reason they did this :"On May 15 her husband was told, among many other things, that the nursing home had concluded she was not able to consent to sex." For me, this implies the man was coming in to visit, and had sex with his wife...otherwise, why would they even mention it? And this is Iowa, the middle of the bible belt. It seems the daughter didnt approve of her mother having sex (implied from the report the the daughter "had concerns"), and got the mother moved to a shared room. The report also very poorly reports on the events of the evening in question...an alarm is raised, but that person is later to have said something.... Its all very wierd and involves a politician, a "concerned" daughter and jobsworths in the US medical industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Bear Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 It would depend very much on how bad the dementia was, but it's likely that if she was bad enough to be in a care home then she would very likely not be able to understand or give informed consent. And even if she said yes to a question, she may not have understood what she was asked. People with dementia will often say yes to all sorts that they don't understand or have a clue about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 It would depend very much on how bad the dementia was, but it's likely that if she was bad enough to be in a care home then she would very likely not be able to understand or give informed consent. And even if she said yes to a question, she may not have understood what she was asked. People with dementia will often say yes to all sorts that they don't understand or have a clue about. of course, but there are other reasons she could have been in the care home, like the husband simply couldnt cope. From the report, it is implied he came to visit and had his conjugals in the private room what interests me, is why the home brought the subject up at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Bear Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 of course, but there are other reasons she could have been in the care home, like the husband simply couldnt cope. l? The very reason relatives can no longer cope, and someone goes into a care home, is nearly always BECAUSE the dementia is advanced. Hardly anyone takes this decision lightly - it's very often when carers are at the end of their tethers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juvenal Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 'Bonkers Booty Call Oldster' has just entered the popular parlance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 - Only In America Surely you don't think this guys behaviour is OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turned Out Nice Again Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Surely you don't think this guys behaviour is OK? I do. Unless it was absolutely proven that he was abusing his wife. Having sex is a normal thing that married people do. Why would her having Alzheimer's change that? How condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I do. Unless it was absolutely proven that he was abusing his wife. Having sex is a normal thing that married people do. Why would her having Alzheimer's change that? How condescending. Sex between old people is unimaginable to the young so it must be some kind of perversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I do. Unless it was absolutely proven that he was abusing his wife. Having sex is a normal thing that married people do. Why would her having Alzheimer's change that? How condescending. Oh dear. You do realise rape within a marriage is possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Oh dear. You do realise rape within a marriage is possible? Im sure he does. But how does that bear on his comment on old codger sex being a normal activity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Im sure he does. But how does that bear on his comment on old codger sex being a normal activity? sex without informed consent is the legal definition of rape (in english law at least) - old codger sex is fine as long as both old codgers understand the nature of the act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 sex without informed consent is the legal definition of rape (in english law at least) - old codger sex is fine as long as both old codgers understand the nature of the act Indeed, thats what I find interesting about this case...the issue of sex appears to have been brought into the frame by the daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Indeed, thats what I find interesting about this case...the issue of sex appears to have been brought into the frame by the daughter. Maybe the daughter considers her mother too far gone to give that informed consent - and maybe the daughter knows the father as some domineering pig from her childhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Maybe the daughter considers her mother too far gone to give that informed consent - and maybe the daughter knows the father as some domineering pig from her childhood Did you bother to read the newspaper article linked to in the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Did you bother to read the newspaper article linked to in the OP? Okay. I missed the 2007 marriage bit maybe the daughter doesn't like him marrying her mum, or maybe there is a genuine concern. The daughter never cried rape on behalf of her mother until he was having sex with her and she was non compos mentis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Maybe the daughter considers her mother too far gone to give that informed consent - and maybe the daughter knows the father as some domineering pig from her childhood Maybe she does, but as Bruceeee says, you should read the article. Of course, it is only an article and therefore designed to inflame and outrage. My interest was piqued by the fact that the issue of sex and consent was brought up at all, and how the daughter has put herself in the case. After that, the report goes into the realms of fantasy and impossible timings, so the case will be of passing interest. Saying that, I wont bother to look it up unless it comes back here for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Reminiscent in some ways of this case: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2806391/Judge-rules-22-year-old-woman-severe-learning-disability-history-abusive-relationships-does-mental-capacity-consent-sex.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turned Out Nice Again Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 sanity prevails: Man accused of sexually abusing his wife with dementia is found NOT GUILTYhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3051134/Jury-Iowa-man-not-guilty-abusing-wife-dementia.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 sanity prevails: I'm not so sure about that. The way I read the article, had there been proof that they had sex he would have been found guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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