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Is Prime London Crashing? - Merged Threads


Damik

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HOLA441

I would like to know what is the builder's floor price for at least 5% profit. I am afraid that it has passed ... :wub::wub::wub:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=OUTCODE^2521&insId=3&maxDaysSinceAdded=1&googleAnalyticsChannel=buying

16/03/2015 Price changed: from '£1,500,000' to '£1,275,000'

01/12/2014 Price changed: from '£1,600,000' to '£1,500,000'

03/11/2014 Initial entry found.

2 bed flat....1.275 Million

Funniest thing ive seen in years.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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HOLA442

I have been a relatively quiet follower. So I thought I would ask this question.

How long will it take Prime London house prices to ripple out to the UK?

I think there are some major falls in London and its gaining momentum. If you don't believe me take a look at Westminster on zoopla and sort by discounted properties within 3 miles. Some are discounted by 30%.

Also I often look at Foxton estate agent share price which I think is a good lead indicator. The share chat is also very bearish.http://m.lse.co.uk/markets/shareprice/chat.asp?share=FOXT

Am I just being wishful?

Will the pension reforms just mitigate the drop?

Or am I seeing the start of something beautiful?

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HOLA443

I like it. Even it is just RM index:

http://www.cityam.com/211623/slowdown-top-and-bottom-market-hits-london-house-prices

New seller asking prices dropped by 0.4 per cent according to online property market Rightmove. It is the first time in three years that prices have retreated in March. High-end property values saw their asking prices trimmed by 2.6 per cent.
Best performing areas
Islington 7.2% Greenwich 6.6% Waltham Forest 5% Ealing 4.5% Haringey 3.6%

Worst performing areas

City of Westminster -17.1 % Barnet -12.7% Hounslow -5.8% Hackney -4.1% Tower Hamlets -3.3%
Edited by Damik
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HOLA444

There are currently 43 (up from 40 a few days ago), of the 246 properties who's last sold date and price I know, who's current asking price is below the LR valuation.

Of that 43, 10 (23%) last sold in 2014. Given that there are 26 that last sold in 2014, that's 38% of which are accepting a rate of inflation less than the LR rate of inflation, and more than a couple of those appear to be asking for less than they paid.

Probably a few more (maybe the whole 38%?) underwater once sales fees, stamp duty, etc have been factored in.

Really appreciate all the data you've been compiling btw :)

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HOLA445
I have been a relatively quiet follower. So I thought I would ask this question.

How long will it take Prime London house prices to ripple out to the UK?

I think there are some major falls in London and its gaining momentum. If you don't believe me take a look at Westminster on zoopla and sort by discounted properties within 3 miles. Some are discounted by 30%.

Also I often look at Foxton estate agent share price which I think is a good lead indicator. The share chat is also very bearish.http://m.lse.co.uk/m....asp?share=FOXT

Am I just being wishful?

Will the pension reforms just mitigate the drop?

Or am I seeing the start of something beautiful?

Hey outdriveman. Good to see a new voice on the thread. Prime London is tanking there is very little question about that. 43% drop in volume y/y for properties above £2Mill according to the latest LR report. That is a serious drop in volume. I believe that is one of the strongest signs that the market is imploding: not just falling prices but also massive fall in volumes. As for your first question, I believe we will be y/y at zero in the May LR report published in June this year. I guess that's when the official ripple effect will start.

Foxton's is always an interesting indicator and there are several hedge funds and investment banks actively betting against Foxton's (e.g. betting on Foxton's to drop). You will have read the recent news of Foxton's firing about 60 staff members. My prediction is that they will start selling their Mini fleet in a year's time. In two years time or so they will go into administration.

As for your last three questions, here are my two cents:

Am I just being wishful? - Most certainly not. This thing is happening right now and with every day passing by the data is becoming more clear. The LR report at the end of this month will be a thriller.

Will the pension reforms just mitigate the drop? - I don't see how senior citizens getting access to £30k will make any difference whatsoever. Are we to assume that they all turn into BTL landlords? With that amount of money I doubt we will see much effect on the real economy either so why would it have on the property market?

Or am I seeing the start of something beautiful? - Yes, you are seeing the start of something very beautiful indeed. By the summer she will be drop dead gorgeous.

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HOLA446

Hey outdriveman. Good to see a new voice on the thread. Prime London is tanking there is very little question about that. 43% drop in volume y/y for properties above £2Mill according to the latest LR report. That is a serious drop in volume. I believe that is one of the strongest signs that the market is imploding: not just falling prices but also massive fall in volumes. As for your first question, I believe we will be y/y at zero in the May LR report published in June this year. I guess that's when the official ripple effect will start.

Foxton's is always an interesting indicator and there are several hedge funds and investment banks actively betting against Foxton's (e.g. betting on Foxton's to drop). You will have read the recent news of Foxton's firing about 60 staff members. My prediction is that they will start selling their Mini fleet in a year's time. In two years time or so they will go into administration.

As for your last three questions, here are my two cents:

Am I just being wishful? - Most certainly not. This thing is happening right now and with every day passing by the data is becoming more clear. The LR report at the end of this month will be a thriller.

Will the pension reforms just mitigate the drop? - I don't see how senior citizens getting access to £30k will make any difference whatsoever. Are we to assume that they all turn into BTL landlords? With that amount of money I doubt we will see much effect on the real economy either so why would it have on the property market?

Or am I seeing the start of something beautiful? - Yes, you are seeing the start of something very beautiful indeed. By the summer she will be drop dead gorgeous.

Dont forget to add the disclaimer in case not in all cases, but i really hope you dont need it.

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HOLA447

Probably a few more (maybe the whole 38%?) underwater once sales fees, stamp duty, etc have been factored in.

Really appreciate all the data you've been compiling btw :)

Yes.

The figure that represents the difference between the LR valuation and the asking price, I'm calling the "mark-up", so that 38% are where the mark-up is negative.

I just went to find out what the average mark-up was for those sellers who bought in 2014, to give an idea of how underwater/afloat they are in general, and I found myself back at the LR price calculator double checking my calculations. I realised then, that the calculator actually allows you to put the London borough in, whereas I had been using "Greater London" so far for SW16.

Streatham is in Lambeth right? So I changed my code to use Lambeth rather than Greater London for the valuations.

Crikey.

Using Lambeth, it's not 43 out of 246 with negative markup, it's 88 (35% not 17%). And of the 26 from 2014, 12 have negative markup (46% not 38%).

This is giving a totally different picture of the market.

Here is the breakdown by last sold year again, with the average asking price, the average mark-up, the number of properties with negative mark-up (I call these "fallers" - as they are the ones that will be putting downwards pressure on the rate of price inflation):

1999: 10 (4.07%) - £986,000.00 (Markup 30.92%) Fallers: 2 (20.00%)2000: 7 (2.85%) - £559,278.43 (Markup 6.82%) Fallers: 3 (42.86%)2001: 4 (1.63%) - £527,500.00 (Markup 13.55%) Fallers: 2 (50.00%)2002: 16 (6.50%) - £620,924.69 (Markup 2.03%) Fallers: 5 (31.25%)2003: 13 (5.28%) - £464,611.54 (Markup 4.91%) Fallers: 8 (61.54%)2004: 14 (5.69%) - £618,842.86 (Markup 10.54%) Fallers: 5 (35.71%)2005: 15 (6.10%) - £502,383.33 (Markup 2.43%) Fallers: 7 (46.67%)2006: 19 (7.72%) - £468,142.11 (Markup -1.36%) Fallers: 9 (47.37%)2007: 34 (13.82%) - £456,814.71 (Markup 1.64%) Fallers: 14 (41.18%)2008: 13 (5.28%) - £465,746.15 (Markup 13.29%) Fallers: 3 (23.08%)2009: 19 (7.72%) - £571,571.05 (Markup 24.03%) Fallers: 5 (26.32%)2010: 7 (2.85%) - £455,000.00 (Markup 12.42%) Fallers: 2 (28.57%)2011: 8 (3.25%) - £558,737.50 (Markup 29.11%) Fallers: 0 (0.00%)2012: 16 (6.50%) - £589,362.50 (Markup 29.65%) Fallers: 1 (6.25%)2013: 25 (10.16%) - £572,396.00 (Markup 9.11%) Fallers: 10 (40.00%)2014: 26 (10.57%) - £462,490.00 (Markup 9.83%) Fallers: 12 (46.15%)

In terms of price range, the 3 sectors with the highest supply and demand, that is £100k-£200k, £200-£300k, and £300k-£400k, the average mark-up is -1.02%, 0.10%, and 2.41%.

I would have previously labelled SW16 as "struggling". Now I think it can definitely be called in "dire". If sold prices are on average 10% below asking prices, the LR index is most definitely still heading downwards.

Fantastic news. If this is representative of London as a whole, then if it's not crashing, it's very, very close to it.

Thank you, btw, for the support - I had been wondering whether my big tables of data were causing groans among other forum members. It's nice to feel appreciated ;-)

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HOLA448

I like it. Even it is just RM index:

http://www.cityam.com/211623/slowdown-top-and-bottom-market-hits-london-house-prices

New seller asking prices dropped by 0.4 per cent according to online property market Rightmove. It is the first time in three years that prices have retreated in March. High-end property values saw their asking prices trimmed by 2.6 per cent.
Worst Best performing areas
Islington 7.2% Greenwich 6.6% Waltham Forest 5% Ealing 4.5% Haringey 3.6%

Best Worst performing areas

City of Westminster -17.1 % Barnet -12.7% Hounslow -5.8% Hackney -4.1% Tower Hamlets -3.3%
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HOLA449

Yes.

The figure that represents the difference between the LR valuation and the asking price, I'm calling the "mark-up", so that 38% are where the mark-up is negative.

I just went to find out what the average mark-up was for those sellers who bought in 2014, to give an idea of how underwater/afloat they are in general, and I found myself back at the LR price calculator double checking my calculations. I realised then, that the calculator actually allows you to put the London borough in, whereas I had been using "Greater London" so far for SW16.

Streatham is in Lambeth right? So I changed my code to use Lambeth rather than Greater London for the valuations.

Crikey.

Using Lambeth, it's not 43 out of 246 with negative markup, it's 88 (35% not 17%). And of the 26 from 2014, 12 have negative markup (46% not 38%).

This is giving a totally different picture of the market.

Here is the breakdown by last sold year again, with the average asking price, the average mark-up, the number of properties with negative mark-up (I call these "fallers" - as they are the ones that will be putting downwards pressure on the rate of price inflation):

1999: 10 (4.07%) - £986,000.00 (Markup 30.92%) Fallers: 2 (20.00%)2000: 7 (2.85%) - £559,278.43 (Markup 6.82%) Fallers: 3 (42.86%)2001: 4 (1.63%) - £527,500.00 (Markup 13.55%) Fallers: 2 (50.00%)2002: 16 (6.50%) - £620,924.69 (Markup 2.03%) Fallers: 5 (31.25%)2003: 13 (5.28%) - £464,611.54 (Markup 4.91%) Fallers: 8 (61.54%)2004: 14 (5.69%) - £618,842.86 (Markup 10.54%) Fallers: 5 (35.71%)2005: 15 (6.10%) - £502,383.33 (Markup 2.43%) Fallers: 7 (46.67%)2006: 19 (7.72%) - £468,142.11 (Markup -1.36%) Fallers: 9 (47.37%)2007: 34 (13.82%) - £456,814.71 (Markup 1.64%) Fallers: 14 (41.18%)2008: 13 (5.28%) - £465,746.15 (Markup 13.29%) Fallers: 3 (23.08%)2009: 19 (7.72%) - £571,571.05 (Markup 24.03%) Fallers: 5 (26.32%)2010: 7 (2.85%) - £455,000.00 (Markup 12.42%) Fallers: 2 (28.57%)2011: 8 (3.25%) - £558,737.50 (Markup 29.11%) Fallers: 0 (0.00%)2012: 16 (6.50%) - £589,362.50 (Markup 29.65%) Fallers: 1 (6.25%)2013: 25 (10.16%) - £572,396.00 (Markup 9.11%) Fallers: 10 (40.00%)2014: 26 (10.57%) - £462,490.00 (Markup 9.83%) Fallers: 12 (46.15%)
In terms of price range, the 3 sectors with the highest supply and demand, that is £100k-£200k, £200-£300k, and £300k-£400k, the average mark-up is -1.02%, 0.10%, and 2.41%.

I would have previously labelled SW16 as "struggling". Now I think it can definitely be called in "dire". If sold prices are on average 10% below asking prices, the LR index is most definitely still heading downwards.

Fantastic news. If this is representative of London as a whole, then if it's not crashing, it's very, very close to it.

Thank you, btw, for the support - I had been wondering whether my big tables of data were causing groans among other forum members. It's nice to feel appreciated ;-)

So for 2014 buyers, average asking price is 10% above what Lr data says it should be. But within that population 46% are selling bellow what LR says they should. Is that right?

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HOLA4410
Barnet -12.7%

Well about time this started to happen, living in and around Barnet it is very clear that the council is really not interested in the welfare of the vulnerable or even the tax paying citizens of the borough but more about profits and lining their pockets, Barnet has the highest home waiting lists in London even for someone who was born and raised here, they have no chance of ever finding living standard social housing, let alone finding something close to the definition of affordable to an average wage , I doubt that very much has changed seeing as they are still trying to tear down social housing and privatise the profits for their big property business chums ala Sweets Way N20:

Broken Barnet Indeed: http://wwwbrokenbarnet.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/sweets-way-another-round-of-evictions.html

Edited by JustAnotherProle
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HOLA4411
11
HOLA4412
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HOLA4413
13
HOLA4414

So those overvalued are very overvalued hence the 10% increase in average despite nearly half reducing prices.

There aren't any conversions in there screwing up the data is there?

The LR index has qualitative adjustments, though how this is done is not stated. The methodology is described here:

http://pro.landmarkanalytics.co.uk/Land-Registry-House-Price-Index-Methodology-1995.pdf

It is the view of Calnea Analytics that in so far as data on systematic property deterioration or improvement is available, this information can and should be practically incorporated in the model. One valuable source of such information is the English House Condition Survey (EHCS) annually conducted by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.

Not sure if they can adequately account for the rash of side return extensions and bifolding doors though.

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HOLA4415

So those overvalued are very overvalued hence the 10% increase in average despite nearly half reducing prices.

There aren't any conversions in there screwing up the data is there?

There are definitely mismatches. The most common I've found is where the sale of a flat is mistaken for the sale of a house and vice versa (this is RM's mistake, not mine).

Here are the 26. It's the property id, last sold date, last sold price, LR valuation, current asking price, initial asking price, and mark-up.

48833218 : Dec 2014 £177,500.00 - £175,563.00 - £95,000.00 (£95,000.00) -45.89%48473134 : May 2014 £395,000.00 - £437,231.00 - £285,000.00 (£300,000.00) -34.82%50072894 : Dec 2014 £177,500.00 - £175,563.00 - £115,000.00 (£115,000.00) -34.50%50112947 : Apr 2014 £410,109.00 - £466,130.00 - £375,000.00 (£375,000.00) -19.55%48282289 : Jan 2014 £472,500.00 - £575,485.00 - £479,995.00 (£479,995.00) -16.59%33008376 : Mar 2014 £580,000.00 - £683,975.00 - £580,000.00 (£580,000.00) -15.20%50130263 : May 2014 £395,000.00 - £437,231.00 - £375,000.00 (£375,000.00) -14.23%33008466 : May 2014 £1,040,000.00 - £1,151,191.00 - £1,000,000.00 (£1,000,000.00) -3.85%33008445 : Apr 2014 £550,000.00 - £625,131.00 - £595,000.00 (£595,000.00) -4.82%50505833 : Feb 2014 £720,000.00 - £865,287.00 - £850,000.00 (£850,000.00) -1.77%48447014 : Jan 2014 £500,000.00 - £608,978.00 - £599,950.00 (£599,950.00) -1.48%33573738 : Apr 2014 £490,000.00 - £556,935.00 - £550,000.00 (£550,000.00) -1.25%33008487 : Oct 2014 £375,000.00 - £369,842.00 - £375,000.00 (£375,000.00) 1.39%48821866 : Jan 2014 £250,000.00 - £304,489.00 - £309,950.00 (£309,950.00) 1.79%33008484 : Sep 2014 £485,000.00 - £483,747.00 - £499,950.00 (£499,950.00) 3.35%33008373 : Nov 2014 £520,000.00 - £511,417.00 - £550,000.00 (£550,000.00) 7.54%50086130 : Apr 2014 £290,000.00 - £329,614.00 - £375,000.00 (£375,000.00) 13.77%32479680 : Jul 2014 £270,000.00 - £283,018.00 - £335,000.00 (£335,000.00) 18.37%50519726 : Jun 2014 £351,000.00 - £374,449.00 - £450,000.00 (£450,000.00) 20.18%47841503 : Jul 2014 £315,000.00 - £330,188.00 - £400,000.00 (£400,000.00) 21.14%49704290 : Jun 2014 £196,000.00 - £209,094.00 - £275,000.00 (£275,000.00) 31.52%51095318 : Oct 2014 £275,000.00 - £271,217.00 - £375,000.00 (£375,000.00) 38.27%48821872 : Oct 2014 £334,000.00 - £329,406.00 - £479,950.00 (£479,950.00) 45.70%51127928 : Oct 2014 £325,000.00 - £320,529.00 - £469,995.00 (£469,995.00) 46.63%48821863 : Nov 2014 £354,000.00 - £348,157.00 - £579,950.00 (£579,950.00) 66.58%46085092 : Jan 2014 £220,000.00 - £267,950.00 - £650,000.00 (£650,000.00) 142.58%

I think the last one, we've already verified as a mistake in the LR as £220k is way below what you'd expect for the road.

The mismatches in general are most likely to be the outliers at the start and the end of the list. It wouldn't take too long if you wanted to manually verify them and remove the matches to come up with more more accurate average mark-up and fallers numbers.

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HOLA4416

The LR index has qualitative adjustments, though how this is done is not stated. The methodology is described here:

http://pro.landmarkanalytics.co.uk/Land-Registry-House-Price-Index-Methodology-1995.pdf

Not sure if they can adequately account for the rash of side return extensions and bifolding doors though.

I don't believe so, they specifically state there is no hedonic analysis:

RSR requires only data on transaction prices and dates of two consequent transactions, and does not require data on physical attributes.

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HOLA4417
17
HOLA4418

It is just not selling. How do EAs feel when they spend so much time on RM reducing the prices ??? Do they feel like morons ???

RM traffic for last 24h:

- SW6 - 42% (8/19) of price reductions

- SW8 - 40% (4/10) of price reductions

- Streatham - 33% (6/18) of price reductions

- Kensington & Chelsea - 32% (15/47) of price reductions

- Fulham - 44% (10/23) of price reductions

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HOLA4419

It is just not selling. How do EAs feel when they spend so much time on RM reducing the prices ??? Do they feel like morons ???

RM traffic for last 24h:

- SW6 - 42% (8/19) of price reductions

- SW8 - 40% (4/10) of price reductions

- Streatham - 33% (6/18) of price reductions

- Kensington & Chelsea - 32% (15/47) of price reductions

- Fulham - 44% (10/23) of price reductions

Quick skim through - Each of these areas had roughly 25 - 30% rental reductions too.

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HOLA4420
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HOLA4421

Yes.

The figure that represents the difference between the LR valuation and the asking price, I'm calling the "mark-up", so that 38% are where the mark-up is negative.

I just went to find out what the average mark-up was for those sellers who bought in 2014, to give an idea of how underwater/afloat they are in general, and I found myself back at the LR price calculator double checking my calculations. I realised then, that the calculator actually allows you to put the London borough in, whereas I had been using "Greater London" so far for SW16.

Streatham is in Lambeth right? So I changed my code to use Lambeth rather than Greater London for the valuations.

Crikey.

Using Lambeth, it's not 43 out of 246 with negative markup, it's 88 (35% not 17%). And of the 26 from 2014, 12 have negative markup (46% not 38%).

This is giving a totally different picture of the market.

Here is the breakdown by last sold year again, with the average asking price, the average mark-up, the number of properties with negative mark-up (I call these "fallers" - as they are the ones that will be putting downwards pressure on the rate of price inflation):

1999: 10 (4.07%) - £986,000.00 (Markup 30.92%) Fallers: 2 (20.00%)2000: 7 (2.85%) - £559,278.43 (Markup 6.82%) Fallers: 3 (42.86%)2001: 4 (1.63%) - £527,500.00 (Markup 13.55%) Fallers: 2 (50.00%)2002: 16 (6.50%) - £620,924.69 (Markup 2.03%) Fallers: 5 (31.25%)2003: 13 (5.28%) - £464,611.54 (Markup 4.91%) Fallers: 8 (61.54%)2004: 14 (5.69%) - £618,842.86 (Markup 10.54%) Fallers: 5 (35.71%)2005: 15 (6.10%) - £502,383.33 (Markup 2.43%) Fallers: 7 (46.67%)2006: 19 (7.72%) - £468,142.11 (Markup -1.36%) Fallers: 9 (47.37%)2007: 34 (13.82%) - £456,814.71 (Markup 1.64%) Fallers: 14 (41.18%)2008: 13 (5.28%) - £465,746.15 (Markup 13.29%) Fallers: 3 (23.08%)2009: 19 (7.72%) - £571,571.05 (Markup 24.03%) Fallers: 5 (26.32%)2010: 7 (2.85%) - £455,000.00 (Markup 12.42%) Fallers: 2 (28.57%)2011: 8 (3.25%) - £558,737.50 (Markup 29.11%) Fallers: 0 (0.00%)2012: 16 (6.50%) - £589,362.50 (Markup 29.65%) Fallers: 1 (6.25%)2013: 25 (10.16%) - £572,396.00 (Markup 9.11%) Fallers: 10 (40.00%)2014: 26 (10.57%) - £462,490.00 (Markup 9.83%) Fallers: 12 (46.15%)

In terms of price range, the 3 sectors with the highest supply and demand, that is £100k-£200k, £200-£300k, and £300k-£400k, the average mark-up is -1.02%, 0.10%, and 2.41%.

I would have previously labelled SW16 as "struggling". Now I think it can definitely be called in "dire". If sold prices are on average 10% below asking prices, the LR index is most definitely still heading downwards.

Fantastic news. If this is representative of London as a whole, then if it's not crashing, it's very, very close to it.

Thank you, btw, for the support - I had been wondering whether my big tables of data were causing groans among other forum members. It's nice to feel appreciated ;-)

That does look pretty dire!

From your post it seems that the most transacted price brackets are still trading around the current LR inflation rate, and from your One In Three Houses Do Not Sell... thread I'm aware that quite a large proportion of marketed properties are often removed without a sale, so I wouldn't be certain that this will necessarily translate into the LR index (we'll have to see how many of the fallers translate into actual sales) but it certainly gives an interesting picture of the precarious state of the current market.

Data is always good, certainly much appreciated from my PoV. Hopefully if you keep at it for long enough you'll start to be able to make correlations with subsequent index movements, at the moment it seems like it must be quite hard to discern the signal from the noise (but then I always favoured mechanics over statistics so what do I know).

Oh, and yes, Streatham is in Lambeth :D

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HOLA4422

Not trading at the current LR inflation rate, being marketed at it. The question is, what price will they sell at.

Over a long enough period, I can get a good idea by re-mapping sold listings to their new last sold price and finding the average.

For now, it has to be a guess, and as you say, the fact that a decemt number won't even sell it's all the more difficult.

It feels like sold prices should be 20-40% below asking prices, but on Location!, Location!, Location! (I'm only half joking, terrible I know but this is the extent of my experience) they rarely seem to manage more than 5 or 8% off.

The gap must be wider though in a falling market.

Do bear in mind, I have a number of other areas in the db, and streathams weakness is very obvious in comparison.

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HOLA4423

I do not think there is any new BTL in London; as the gross rental profit is close to 3% only

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2999118/Mortgage-lending-time-buyers-slumps-21-month-low.html

Buy-to-let investors continue to benefit from lending surge but first-time buyers struggle as loans fall to 21-month low
  • Lending to first-time buyers fell by 27% in January compared to December
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HOLA4424
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HOLA4425

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