It's Amazing How Low

[guitarman001]

I think the OP does have a valid point. I *used* to think 'what nutter, what are they banging on about' certain things on here... they seemed far out etc. But really I was the person in denial - I had to open my mind to certain things. Just because others will look at this thread and laugh doesn't mean things as they stand are fine. The majority are usually wrong.

[Boughtin95]

Nothing trolling about it. It's the truth. Most people in paid employment in 2011 can't afford to live without debt.

Do you have any links to support your stance?

I think many people in full time employment, who are in debt, could have afforded to live without debt however, they chose not to do so.

Look around you, far too many people live beyond their income but don't have to, they choose to.

[MrWallace]

Yes. My friends and colleagues typically earn 25-40k and the thicker ones moan about their constant lack of money. I get funny looks when I try to explain the above to them. Telling them that they earn lots and currently live well usually results in laughter / stares. I don't know if they generally represent those earning in that bracket; one hopes not but.....

I even have a friend on £100k who has only started to realise how far along the earnings curve he is, despite my efforts over the past few years. He is closer to the footballers or bankers than the vast majority of people.

It all just depends what sort of circles you live / socialise in, and how much of your disposable you spend on tat.

Of course, housing costs are a big factor in this, but at the same time people become their own worst enemy when taking out shoe-box mortgages.

In my experience your friends do represent those in the above earnings bracket.

It's because people tend to associate with people like themselves, so they're comparing what they have with what they see those around them having; not what most people have. People often think that their neighbours and social groups are representative of society as a whole when they're usually not.

Salaries of around 35K are about average in the industry I work in (oil and gas). Someone on this type of salary once asked me if he thought most people earned more or less than we did. I said 'A LOT LESS' and he was surprised. My response was ask yourself this: 'Do you think most people in Scotland work in the offshore oil and gas industry like we do, or do most people work in places like factories, supermarkets, McDonalds and the likes? How many people do you think work for the local council and what is the pay like for 90% of them, how many nurses are there, how many people are in the army and how much do you think a soldier gets paid etc?'. Then he got it. But it's easy not to get it when you're not friends with many people working in those jobs, out of sight out of mind as they say.

[Wait & See]

What I find laughable is that so many people think £2,400 a month is good. Giving up most of your life for a couple of grand a month is a shockingly bad deal. Same with giving up most of your life for £1,000 a month or £800 a month.

What a bloody waste of time and effort that is.

All that is happening is that the capital owners are laughing at the workers all running around going to work everyday for a few coppers in order to serve a huge mortgage/rent payment.

That's what i'm trying to get at. The distribution of wealth is shockingly bad, yet people are still happy to work for, in the grand scheme of things, bugger all.

[chronyx]

What I find laughable is that so many people think £2,400 a month is good. Giving up most of your life for a couple of grand a month is a shockingly bad deal. Same with giving up most of your life for £1,000 a month or £800 a month.

What a bloody waste of time and effort that is.

All that is happening is that the capital owners are laughing at the workers all running around going to work everyday for a few coppers in order to serve a huge mortgage/rent payment.

That's what i'm trying to get at. The distribution of wealth is shockingly bad, yet people are still happy to work for, in the grand scheme of things, bugger all.

So what is the alternative? The closest I have found is workaway or WWOOF type arrangements.

Also we all depend on other people "Giving up most of their life for a couple of grand a month" in order to live. No-one is totally self-sufficient these days.

Edited October 18, 2011 by chronyx

[unclefester]

A decent average wage imo is one that -

A. Pays for at least average accomodation = £1,200 per month

B. Pay for all bills = £500 per month

C. Pays for one small car = £500 per month (including insurance and tax)

D. Pays for food and clothing = £200 per month

E. Allows some kind of saving = £500 per month

If you add all that up, it comes to roughly £3,000 per month. So a salary of 52k per year should do it.

This thread is all about cost of living v how much we all get paid. As we all know, if you could rent or buy a property for £200 per month, a large salary is not really needed.

This thread is also about showing up how piss poor most people get paid compared to a few super earners who are happy that we are all desperate to work for buttons.

Assuming that the average wage is to pay for an average person living an average life these figures are way off the mark.

A. Accomodation (Renting a nice 2 bed flat not in London) £750 per month

B. Bills( By halfing mine for a 4 bed place in the south with kids) £250 per month

C. Car (Brand new Peugot 207 on lease, £600 budget for insurance and assuming no major commuting) £330 per month

D. Food and clothing - I'll go with your £200 - seems reasonable £200 per month

E. Savings / Disposable income - again your figure while optimistic is not unreasonable £500 per month

Total needed would be nearer £30k. And it would be very easy to trim that budget further.

Thats not to say that living in the the UK is cheap but this attitude you seem to have or want to justify, that its not worth your while stacking shelves for less than 52k takes a worthwhile discussion off into troll territory

[roadtoruin]

What I find laughable is that so many people think £2,400 a month is good. Giving up most of your life for a couple of grand a month is a shockingly bad deal. Same with giving up most of your life for £1,000 a month or £800 a month.

What a bloody waste of time and effort that is.

All that is happening is that the capital owners are laughing at the workers all running around going to work everyday for a few coppers in order to serve a huge mortgage/rent payment.

That's what i'm trying to get at. The distribution of wealth is shockingly bad, yet people are still happy to work for, in the grand scheme of things, bugger all.

I agree the distribution of wealth is shocking, but it should be the people at the bottom brought up from the frankly unliveable minimum wage incomes. But your ideas of what you need are roughly double what is really needed (and is sustainable environmentally). Housing apart - and that can be sorted out - an income of 35K for a family should be plenty. I can live on 20K easily, the best things in life are not expensive, and we're going to have to rediscover that over the next few years.

[MrWallace]

What I find laughable is that so many people think £2,400 a month is good. Giving up most of your life for a couple of grand a month is a shockingly bad deal. Same with giving up most of your life for £1,000 a month or £800 a month.

What a bloody waste of time and effort that is.

All that is happening is that the capital owners are laughing at the workers all running around going to work everyday for a few coppers in order to serve a huge mortgage/rent payment.

That's what i'm trying to get at. The distribution of wealth is shockingly bad, yet people are still happy to work for, in the grand scheme of things, bugger all.

What do you suggest, that the able bodied refuse to work and just claim benefits and watch day time TV instead? Tempting but no thanks.

Start a business of your own. No thanks, I've done that it's a huge amount of work and bloody hard work. Working for someone is much easier. What's your solution.

Oh wait, you said "the capital owners". You want a communist workers paradise right?

[guitarman001]

A. Accomodation (Renting a nice 2 bed flat not in London) £800 per month for decent mortgage

B. Bills( By halfing mine for a 4 bed place in the south with kids) £250 per month

C. Car (Brand new Peugot 207 on lease, £600 budget for insurance and assuming no major commuting) £350 per month if I were to commute from an area with low-cost housing

D. Food and clothing - I'll go with your £200 - seems reasonable £300 per month easily if you're too feed 3 mouths

E. Savings / Disposable income - again your figure while optimistic is not unreasonable £500 per month

So that's £1850 which is about £30k. gross I'm sure there's a lot not covered there as I've done the sums before in detail and it didn't come out so favourable (in fact that £500 disposable really got eaten into... pension, entertainment and other]. The problem is that rent/mortgage figure - too high and for too long.

[blackgoose]

Assuming that the average wage is to pay for an average person living an average life these figures are way off the mark.

A. Accomodation (Renting a nice 2 bed flat not in London) £750 per month

B. Bills( By halfing mine for a 4 bed place in the south with kids) £250 per month

C. Car (Brand new Peugot 207 on lease, £600 budget for insurance and assuming no major commuting) £330 per month

D. Food and clothing - I'll go with your £200 - seems reasonable £200 per month

E. Savings / Disposable income - again your figure while optimistic is not unreasonable £500 per month

Total needed would be nearer £30k. And it would be very easy to trim that budget further.

Thats not to say that living in the the UK is cheap but this attitude you seem to have or want to justify, that its not worth your while stacking shelves for less than 52k takes a worthwhile discussion off into troll territory

Another example could be for a married/ cohabiting person, who own significant amount of a house they bought before the bubble:

A. 50000 left on mortgage, paying 3.5% £75 per month

B. Half of bills £200 per month

C. One full car £350 per month

D. Food and clothing £200 per month

So before savings/ discretionary spending, 825gbp per month, or £10k pa is required. Just shows how easy it would have been without the housing bubble.

[drainman]

An idea that I have is that each employee get's his/her basic salary and then receives the same again in stock.

This way, the more years they work for a company, the bigger the stake they have in the company.

An easy way of giving employees a point to getting out of bed in the morning.

you did not risk your stake to start the company,you got paid every week but now you want the company ? would you bail it out if times got bad ...i doubt it .

[justthisbloke]

What I find laughable is that so many people think £2,400 a month is good. Giving up most of your life for a couple of grand a month is a shockingly bad deal. Same with giving up most of your life for £1,000 a month or £800 a month.

What a bloody waste of time and effort that is.

All that is happening is that the capital owners are laughing at the workers all running around going to work everyday for a few coppers in order to serve a huge mortgage/rent payment.

That's what i'm trying to get at. The distribution of wealth is shockingly bad, yet people are still happy to work for, in the grand scheme of things, bugger all.

That much money per month (or double for a couple) gives you a choice.

Sure, you can max out on expenditure (as most people do at any income level) and work until you drop. Or, you can sit down and work out what is necessary to keep body and soul together and invest the rest. If you're mega-frugal, it won't take long before your divis match your mega-frugal requirements.

Of course, not for everyone but it is a choice you make.

[guitarman001]

Talking to a recruiter today about those potential jobs. It's happening.

[Saberu]

Yep definitely very lucky

But it's not all luck, I'm sure it took a lot of hard work and intelligent to be successful in your field. 80k per month for a couple is a great income probably puts you in the top 1% of household income? Not sure on that.

[Saberu]

There are only so many hours in a day, assuming you are working 40 of them at least a week.

Need me to spell it out for you? Free time is worth more than money. A lot of people either have money OR free time and don't have both. If you guys have the business sense you could consider moving to a country with a low cost of living perhaps somewhere in South America as I hear that is a great place to be then starting up a small coffee shop or some other kind of shop or even a small hotel. Get employees then live life easy as the boss.

That's a very rudimentary example, there are a lot of smarter but more difficult business plans out there.

Another option is to save a lot of money then put them into investments. Go and live in a country with a low cost of living like China and teach English, with experience it's possible to be on my salary/ benefits and only need to teach 12-16 hours/ week (12 if you are lucky).

Then you would be on almost 2000 pounds/ month between you plus have free housing. Then you can dip into your investments for an extra 1000 pounds/ month and I swear 3000/ month in China you can live like a king. Whereas in the UK you live more like a lower middle class level person.

You mentioned whores, probably not a bad way to burn some money. Especially considering your girlfriend probably wouldn't accept you to date other girls if she's like most girls but whores don't count as cheating haha.

Honestly in my opinion best way to spend money is cars (if you have enough), good food, whores and alcohol like wine, beer or whiskey depending on taste

Though if you are lucky enough to be single (I'm not right now but often wish I was) then you can burn money dating hotties Though that's better in Japan or South America than China as girls are crazy materialistic here.

If you don't want to move then you could consider having children, then the government will give you money for free. Either one of you can keep working or both of you can quit your jobs depending whether or not you have moral problems with being on benefits. Personally I don't think it's a bad thing but as I don't want kids I never considered the option and I'm not so immoral to have kids just for free money. Whilst I say that I don't particularly condone the amount of money parents get, but getting what is rightfully yours doesn't mean you have to politically support it as you all pay for it from your taxes anyway.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Saberu

[Wait & See]

you did not risk your stake to start the company,you got paid every week but now you want the company ? would you bail it out if times got bad ...i doubt it .

Anyone who works for a company can also buy shares in it, if it's floated. I would suggest that most employees do just that, so that they can go to the AGM and tell the people who run it for them what they think.

Let's remember that the shareholders own the company, so this definitely gives an employee a say in how the company they work for is run.

[dredwerker]

You might be able to live comfortably if you bought your house before 2001, but if you're paying £1,200 a month on the mortgage + all the bills, £2,400 is useless really.

Anyway, I'm just using the £2,400 as an example of how little most people are willing to work for. IMO a comfortable lifestyle involves having capital that's earns a proper return, but if you think £2,400 a month is good for someone in the top 5% of UK earners, that's fine.

Aren't there a lot of people in that 5,6,7% of earners I am sure it ramps up 1,2,3,4. But you could be in the 5th but have kids and someone in the sixth be in direct competition if they were single. Or if you have kids and someone is helping you look after them that is worth £10k taxed a year.

A lot of people are in the average wage band but don't realise it - especially with tax credits, HB etc.. Thats why housing (Brighton) seems to start at £750 and you get bundles more for every £100 you pay. We are all competing at the same level.

Its also the same with IQ AFAIK.

[Lagarde's Drift]

You mentioned whores, probably not a bad way to burn some money. Especially considering your girlfriend probably wouldn't accept you to date other girls if she's like most girls but whores don't count as cheating haha.

Money, as you say, is not everything. Moving to a foreign culture where thinking such as this which frankly I find revolting, purely to free up money in the name of time would be the wrong decision for many people. Having lots of time and/or money would be crap if you were miserable and didn't get along with anyone.

What people should do is lower their expectations and therefore spending. We have had it far too good for far too long. Witness the number of people, even on this forum, who consider themselves "middle class" whatever that is, and have expectations beyond their means or ability to achieve it. I still think the OP is trolling because I cannot see how one's expectations can be that deluded.

[SarahBell]

This is sort of my point in asking how much a minimum wage job costs the tax payer depending on who is employed.

[guitarman001]

Got some good info on jobs in Germany, going to try and get something arranged in 6-9 months time.

Recruiter asked me if I was interested in a job in London... for a salary of £40k. Told him it wasn't worth it, I'd be better off on £10k up here!

[sympatex]

Got some good info on jobs in Germany, going to try and get something arranged in 6-9 months time.

Recruiter asked me if I was interested in a job in London... for a salary of £40k. Told him it wasn't worth it, I'd be better off on £10k up here!

keep the board posted!

[dredwerker]

Got some good info on jobs in Germany, going to try and get something arranged in 6-9 months time.

Recruiter asked me if I was interested in a job in London... for a salary of £40k. Told him it wasn't worth it, I'd be better off on £10k up here!

I have seen that a few years ago with an accountant in Wales - looking to move Lewes nr Brighton - took the job at £40kish looked at houseprices in Lewes and decided he would be worse off.

Its a wonder to me that there are people to do some of the lesser paid jobs in the more affluent(supposed) areas of the country. I suppose as is always pointed out its HB.

[StainlessSteelCat]

Its a wonder to me that there are people to do some of the lesser paid jobs in the more affluent(supposed) areas of the country. I suppose as is always pointed out its HB.

Sometimes it depends on the other half. I know a Pharmacist on £50K in darkest Wales and zero competition for her job when she took it. Apparently most Pharmacists want to work in London because their other half does.

guitarman - £40K in London isn't bad (and can be a good stepping stone to overseas work). If you are happy to live in a shared place (recommended for a single bloke) then you'll have plenty of spare cash.

[guitarman001]

The recruiter said he himself lives in London, he also didn't think it was that bad a salary. I still think it's peanuts for London and wouldn't fancy any long commute. I wonder just how many knockbacks he gets just because these jobs are in London.

The crunch is going to come in a year's time when I either follow through with all this talk... or if houses drop say 10%, me and the missus will have ~£90-100k between us and we can get a detached house for £160k or so, so only £60k mortgage and living in relatively cheap Scotland (compared to expensive Munich). It's going to be financial security vs. life adventure.

The guy's going to get back in touch with me around May time. I should hopefully have had my work review by then, and if my work's gone unrewarded, I'll have to tart thinking seriously on the move (not that I amn't already!).

Edited October 19, 2011 by guitarman001

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

A decent average wage imo is one that -

A. Pays for at least average accomodation = £1,200 per month

B. Pay for all bills = £500 per month

C. Pays for one small car = £500 per month (including insurance and tax)

D. Pays for food and clothing = £200 per month

E. Allows some kind of saving = £500 per month

If you add all that up, it comes to roughly £3,000 per month. So a salary of 52k per year should do it.

This thread is all about cost of living v how much we all get paid. As we all know, if you could rent or buy a property for £200 per month, a large salary is not really needed.

This thread is also about showing up how piss poor most people get paid compared to a few super earners who are happy that we are all desperate to work for buttons.

Sounds about right.