Spanish Nightmare

[live in hope]

Wish you'd given me that advice a few years back

Sorry, but i wasnt aware of it then. Only years and experience show things for what they can be.

[Democorruptcy]

Property in Spain now requires a new type of document, these are being made 'ultra-rare' by the local authorities. It pretty much says that the house you are living is 'legal'. I know of British couples paying thousands of pounds to various authorities to get them this piece of paper saying their house is legit.

Pretty much what happened was people went over there and started sticking houses up in the 'Campo' (rural countryside), these were illegal, and for a while they were allowed to get away with it, however all being equal people are naturally greedy so they built extensions and other houses on the land they had legally brought (without proper permission you can't build on any land regardless of whether you have 5 or 500 hectares). The law is that you can build on any land where an existing structure exists - but you can only build something as big as or smaller than the original dwelling (oh and it has to be listed as a dwelling in the first place).

Eventually the Government says 'That is it, we've had enough' and went around tearing down these new homes. Near my parents they literally sent in armed Swat teams to arrest a British couple who had built their house on National park land. They also tore down the place they were living in.

For anyone interested, thanks to this new requirement a large proportion of houses that were built by Spanish people are actually illegal. My parents home for instance is legally built, or is it? Nobody actually seems to know, not the local council or the provincial council.

I saw a program about land grab where some people were having their gardens taken by the council which was then sold to developers to build on. The double whammy was that they were then charged for the costs of building the infrastructure to provide access etc for the new houses.

Does the new document also make them safe from that and guarantee their land?

This sort of thing:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=317925&in_page_id=2

[retz]

I saw a program about land grab where some people were having their gardens taken by the council which was then sold to developers to build on. The double whammy was that they were then charged for the costs of building the infrastructure to provide access etc for the new houses.

Does the new document also make them safe from that and guarantee their land?

This sort of thing:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=317925&in_page_id=2

I do not believe so. This document merely states that the Spanish Government recognise your property as a legal 'dwelling', your land can still be taken at will, whenever they please (big arguments about this as your link shows).

Pretty much you have to get a Government contracted surveryor or architect to come round, look at your property and certify it has, for example: 3 bedrooms, a lounge, a kitchen and a bathroom. They sign off and you get your piece of paper stating you are legal and they can't tear your house down for breaking the law.

That is about it, oh and it means you can sell your house.

[stormymonday_2011]

I do not believe so. This document merely states that the Spanish Government recognise your property as a legal 'dwelling', your land can still be taken at will, whenever they please (big arguments about this as your link shows).

Pretty much you have to get a Government contracted surveryor or architect to come round, look at your property and certify it has, for example: 3 bedrooms, a lounge, a kitchen and a bathroom. They sign off and you get your piece of paper stating you are legal and they can't tear your house down for breaking the law.

That is about it, oh and it means you can sell your house.

This is not exactly shouting invest in Spanish property to the rest of the world, although I suppose if they tear down peoples existing homes they might get a few to live in the 1.4 million properties that lie empty.

[rxe]

The Spanish property market is so corrupt that it would make the average Somalian warlord weep. No planning, planning avoidance, kickbacks to town halls, "additional" developments, re-zoning, law changes, you name it. If you buy a property in Spain with a view, you'd better make sure you own that view, otherwise someone better connected than you will build on it. Some brits built quite a nice place near us, and all looked good because because their house was essentially on a cliff - no one could nick their view. Unless of course, you get your cronies in the town hall to allow an 8 storey tower block. Which is exactly what happened.

When I sit on the patio, I look across the bay and see hundreds of houses - they're quite pretty from two miles away. Then you realise that no one is home - all you see is street lights. These are "town houses" - in an area with no jobs and no "town". They went for 300 - 500K euros, all bought off plan. Probably a thousand houses, so about about half a billion euros of property. Dead, deserted (even in August), and now falling down. Houses split in two by landslip, houses sliding into the sea - and the developers are nowhere to be seen (went bust two years ago). And this is one crappy little village, one headland, a story that is repeated up and down the Spanish coastline.

I'm still playing my long game with the Spanish estate agent. 5 years ago, a plot sort of next to us came up for sale. It's a crap plot, worst in our area, and I thought it might be a nice place to put a pool (don't want to put a pool behind our place, Spanish plumbing is a joke...). So I go to the EA, and ask about the plot. With a completely straight face he says that they want EUR 750K for it. Ha ha. By that reckoning our place is worth EUR £2m. In our dreams. I'll have to drop in again soon and re-iterate my EUR 100K offer.

If you've got the cash, Spain is a good place to spend time and buy a house. Don't ever think of it as an investment - think of it as money down the pan. You'd get a more reliable return in the Bank Of Mogadishu.

Edited November 29, 2010 by rxe

[Oliver Sutton]

Things must be really bad in Spain.

Haven't seen the resident Spanish ramper on here for a while.

The one with three accounts because he "forgot" his password for the other ones.

[Peter Hun]

I saw a program about land grab where some people were having their gardens taken by the council which was then sold to developers to build on. The double whammy was that they were then charged for the costs of building the infrastructure to provide access etc for the new houses.

Does the new document also make them safe from that and guarantee their land?

This sort of thing:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=317925&in_page_id=2

Well not exactly.

The spanish have a little trick; the government can give you a document thats says what you are doing is legal. Then declare that part of govenrment were crooks therefore your are a criminal who must be punished.

Another trick; you buy a house for xxx thousand. Government decides that you are crook and underpaid so you have to pay tax on the figure they invented (which matches/exceeds the valuation that supports the banks). Another trick - you have to pay tax on rental income, even though its impossible to rent a spanish property.

Yet another, they tax you on worldwide wealth; Rich? pay more tax in Spain.

And yes of course they will steal land from you and make you pay for its redevelopment. BTW, don't try to got to court unless you are connected.

I only know a few of the tricks, there are more.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Peter Hun

[Peter Hun]

duplicate

Edited November 30, 2010 by Peter Hun

[Realistbear]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/spain-s-banks-face-111-billion-funding-hurdle-in-2011-amid-bailout-threat.html

Spain’s banks may struggle to refinance about 85 billion euros ($111 billion) in debt next year as costs surge on concern continental Europe’s fourth- biggest economy may need an Irish-style bailout.

“There’s a universal dumping of Spain going on,” said Andrea "Andee" Williams

, who helps manage about 623 million pounds ($968 million), including shares in Banco Santander SA, at Royal London Asset Management. “The fear is that Portugal, Spain and Italy are now in line after what happened in Ireland.”

Who is going to wait around until next year? The market will probably take Spain down this side of Crimbo IMO.

[88Crash]

You know how to get your own back don't you? Have a sex-change and then seduce your ex in a lesbian burst of passion before taking her to the cleaners. Works every time!

That’s a cunning plan

Only two flaws I can think of?

First the sex change in going to hurt and second my new girlfriend won’t be too impressed, but other than that its perfect

[88Crash]

Theft has also gone up, quite a few British people living in communities (Brits love other Brits it seems) have been robbed and their houses vandalised.

Which is a side effect of the Spanish Property boom and/or economic boom

I remember a time when Spain was more or less crime free, petty crime for sure, but you could walk anywhere, without getting robbed. The boom required lots of people to work in Spain ‘cheap’ i.e do the dirty work – fast forward several years and guess what, now the boom has finished crime seems to be on the increase, both by the locals and the immigrants

Just in case this sounds a bit racist, I left the UK and live in a foreign country so I am an immigrant myself, so I’m merely pointing out that a lot of the crime in Spain is carried out by non-Spanish, but that not much consolation when you get robbed – who cares what nationality the perpetrators are?

[Realistbear]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/ecb-support-may-prove-critical-for-spain-as-crisis-worsens-buiter-says.html

ECB Support `Critical' for Spain as Crisis Worsens, Buiter Says

By Gabi Thesing - Nov 30, 2010 12:01 AM GMT

The European Central Bank may have to step up purchases of Spanish government bonds and backstop its banking system if the country runs into financing difficulties, Citigroup Inc. Chief Economist Willem Buiter said.

“Once Spain needs assistance, the support of the ECB will be critical,”

Just a matter of days now..........................................

[88Crash]

When I sit on the patio, I look across the bay and see hundreds of houses - they're quite pretty from two miles away. Then you realise that no one is home - all you see is street lights. These are "town houses" - in an area with no jobs and no "town". They went for 300 - 500K euros, all bought off plan. Probably a thousand houses, so about about half a billion euros of property. Dead, deserted (even in August), and now falling down. Houses split in two by landslip, houses sliding into the sea - and the developers are nowhere to be seen (went bust two years ago). And this is one crappy little village, one headland, a story that is repeated up and down the Spanish coastline.

Yep, sadly it is repeated - you can have facts and economic figures, but then there is also what you see with your own eyes, really I think its a shame that Spain had such a great opportunity to advance post Franco and with EU investment - shame they choose to stop working as a country and rely on House prices instead

[rxe]

but then there is also what you see with your own eyes

Indeed. It was clear that Spain was screwed in 2004 - the crazy building, the fact that people were buying properties off plan with little intention of living there (and no model for rental income).

[Bloo Loo]

there is nothing wrong, in theory, of Spain becoming a retirement home for Europeans.

Nothing wrong with People selling up and moving south, living off their pensions.

This brings revenues to Spain, creating jobs, service needs and an Export economy....the provision of retirement service.

Where is went wrong, was when Financiers stepped up to the plate and offered mortgages...this meant pensioners then had to out bid each other for a place, not with their cash, which would have stopped bidders when they ran out of resource, but what they could borrow...and as bankers stopped checking the earnings and repayment potential of borrowers, they just loaned higher and higher loans...First homes, Second homes, Local buyers...all could get Loans to enter the bidding war.

Now, people cant pay back, and bankers have been caught with their trousers down....but, up steps the Government and bails them...theyre Ok for now, but the homeowners, now that bankers arent lending any more, they cant sell their houses at what they are worth.

IMHO...Mortgages on Private housing should be banned.

FORTHWITH.

[Einstein71]

Things must be really bad in Spain.

Haven't seen the resident Spanish ramper on here for a while.

The one with three accounts because he "forgot" his password for the other ones.

I assume you mean me? I think I have explained about 30 times but you always get a few slow ones.

I first joined HPC all of 6 years ago, about 2 years in I had my laptop nicked. When I bought a new one I came to HPC and just thought it would be easier (after waiting 3 days for a reply to my email asking for my details) to just set up a new account. I set up another new account when I was in the States for 3 months and was eager to post but again forgot the password I had used and didnt have access to my PC. Anyway I have always been very open about it, nothing sinister about it I can promise you that.

OK lets tackle the idea that I am a Spanish Ramper, evidence of this please. I bought my house in Spain ages ago, it is fully paid up and I never ever imagine I will sell it or want to sell it. I believe prices in Spain have fallen and continue to fall, I would never encourage anyone to buy as an investment and if you are thinking of buying out there then please rent for 3-6 months first. This as always been the opinion that I have expressed on this forum, I wouldnt really call it ramping, would you ?

I sold up in the UK in 2003 and have rented ever since, I am an active campaigner for a House Price Crash. In fact a bigger Bear you are unlikely to meet.

My point on Spain as always been that it is a great lifestyle. I personally know 100's of people who would never imagine coming back to the UK. These people have paid cash and couldn't give 2 monkeys that prices are crashing, in fact they prefer it because the roads are a little quieter and the building work has stopped. A lot of these ghost estates are in areas where nobody in their right mind would ever have bought unless motivated by an opportunity to flip/invest.

It is always in the interest of certain people to paint a doomsday scenario. if you bought Spanish Property to flip or as an investment then you will have been stung. If you bought a nice apartment somewhere with either cash or a very small manageable mortgage then you are enjoying it, especially if it is somewhere desirable that you are happy with. There will always be people looking to return, who made a mistake or their situation has changed, these stories are what TV shows and papers like to highlight. Land Grab Law is a perfect example, so far if you look at British Consulate figures around 38 people have been directly affected out of a million with homes in Spain. So that is less than 0.000035%, but the way it is covered you would imagine it is affecting every Brit in Spain.

The main story in the Daily Mail is simple. This couple bought an apartment they couldnt afford, it could be anywhere...Manchester...Bradford...Dublin....Paris, the fact is that they are now upset because they couldnt offload it when it started going bad. They would have been quite happy to lord it around if they had made £100k on it. You can't expect reward without risk. This isn't indicative of Spanish Property but of greedy people who always felt that property was win/win and are now unwilling to take responsibility for their gamble.

[winkie]

The situation out there is not good at the moment...many are stuck in property they cannot sell at any price...many who can have locked up left and moved back, many urbanizations are semi deserted with community fees not being paid.....the banks are holding onto repossessed properties to try stem the flow of price falls...not very pretty.

[Venger]

I found some old listing info for their Spanish property investment and holiday rental business but can't find the property itself on the links to the holiday rental portal websites. Probably the full listing information removed by now, or still there but someone else acting as agent on behalf of their lenders.

Alquile su apartamento en Manilva, Zona de Manilva en HomeAway.es.¡ Reserve su apartamento directamente del ... Carol & Ian Chatterton.

appartamento Manilva, Duquesa Hills, El Oasis, Puerto de la Duquesa, ... Contatto: Carol & Ian Chatterton. Invia un'email al proprietario. Disponibilità. Tariffe ...

Ferienwohnung am Meer, SELBSTVERPFLEGUNG in Region Manilva bei FeWo-direkt.de mieten - mit Fotos, ... Carol & Ian Chatterton. Vermieter spricht: Englisch

Luxury 2 bedroom self catering apartment with large quiet gardens and 2 swimming ... Carol & Ian Chatterton. Language(s) Spoken: English ...

Repeat: £250,000 mortgage with the Halifax on their fine home bought in 1990 and with an optimistic current market value of around £300,000 and a big mortgage for the property they bought in Spain. 'How can we live like that, with that threat hanging over us?' Carol said. You can allow lenders to take possession and go rent somewhere smaller and cheaper elsewhere.

[88Crash]

OK lets tackle the idea that I am a Spanish Ramper, evidence of this please. I bought my house in Spain ages ago, it is fully paid up and I never ever imagine I will sell it or want to sell it. I believe prices in Spain have fallen and continue to fall, I would never encourage anyone to buy as an investment and if you are thinking of buying out there then please rent for 3-6 months first. This as always been the opinion that I have expressed on this forum, I wouldnt really call it ramping, would you ?

Not a ramper IMO, in fact very balanced post and I agree 100%

[Einstein71]

The situation out there is not good at the moment...many are stuck in property they cannot sell at any price...many who can have locked up left and moved back, many urbanizations are semi deserted with community fees not being paid.....the banks are holding onto repossessed properties to try stem the flow of price falls...not very pretty.

Perhaps in Torrevieja but I am not seeing this on the ground with my own eyes in all other areas of the Costas. I was out there a month ago and I saw a lot of very happy people. I do know of one couple who are looking to sell up and move to Canada to be nearer to her daughter, they have been trying to sell now for just over 6 months but are looking to actually make a profit on what they paid in 2006. I actually told them that they needed to drop by at least 20%, but even though they moan about it all the time they are in no real rush to leave so just claim that someone will fall in love with the flat and want to buy it.

A lot of communities on the Costas are semi deserted because the majority of houses/apartments are owned by Spanish people who only tend to use them in August and public bank holidays. To the untrained eye they could look abandoned but I can assure you it as always been like that out of season.

I just wanted to edit to add that their is a noticeable difference in that a few bars have closed and of course the building work as stopped. I can also add that there are more Se Vende signs both on Spanish owned and UK owned properties but that as been a slow creep since 2007. Property is certainly very difficult to sell for those that need to sell, I would imagine it being nigh on impossible unless you have something special at a knock down price. What I would object to is the doomsday scenario that the Costa's are full of distressed people. People like the ones in this Daily Mail article are fortunately in the minority but boy do they scream and shout and the papers lap it up, possibly because there is no longer any advertising revenue coming from this market anymore and also because for the majority it is the ideal shadenfreude.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Einstein71

[Bloo Loo]

Perhaps in Torrevieja but I am not seeing this on the ground with my own eyes in all other areas of the Costas. I was out there a month ago and I saw a lot of very happy people. I do know of one couple who are looking to sell up and move to Canada to be nearer to her daughter, they have been trying to sell now for just over 6 months but are looking to actually make a profit on what they paid in 2006. I actually told them that they needed to drop by at least 20%, but even though they moan about it all the time they are in no real rush to leave so just claim that someone will fall in love with the flat and want to buy it.

A lot of communities on the Costas are semi deserted because the majority of houses/apartments are owned by Spanish people who only tend to use them in August and public bank holidays. To the untrained eye they could look abandoned but I can assure you it as always been like that out of season.

in fariness...sounds like they are stuck....by their own valuation of what the thing is WORTH.

being happy and stuck are entirely different things.

[winkie]

So to sum up...if you bought at the right time, at the right price, in the right place and you live there for the right reasons for the great quality of life and have a comfortable income, cost of living and exchange rate permitting you have nothing to fear.

[Bloo Loo]

So to sum up...if you bought at the right time, at the right price, in the right place and you live there for the right reasons for the great quality of life and have a comfortable income, cost of living and exchange rate permitting you have nothing to fear.

sounds right...if you can afford it, you can afford it.

[Einstein71]

So to sum up...if you bought at the right time, at the right price, in the right place and you live there for the right reasons for the great quality of life and have a comfortable income, cost of living and exchange rate permitting you have nothing to fear.

Yes spot on. I think you'll find that most pensioners are in that situation, although I do think concerns are raised when they start worrying about their health as they get a lot older. Pensioner Care is a massive concern in Spain and something offered for free and in abundance in the UK.

The exchange rate has made things a little more expensive for those that rely on a UK based income/pension but it is still comparitively a lot cheaper than the UK. As always you will have those that were living close to the breadline who will struggle with Xchange Rate changes but here in the UK with £140+ council tax and increasing costs/bills/food prices I think they could find they are returning to a fairly similar situation.

I think my point was that the majority of people out there are quite content. Like anything in life it is only an issue if you lose your job or your situation means that you have to sell. There are a growing number of these people but they are still a small minority. I can see this trend continuing though but still will amount to less than 10% in my opinion.

Edited to add that of course the situation is crippling for those Brits out there who relied on the property market or who did odd jobs etc. That work as all dried up into nothing. The "living the dream" mantra is no longer relevant unless you can work out there remotely.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Einstein71

[James Barrow]

too many people became too greedy