Trade Deal With India

[Si1]

Good question as this is relevant; we are in the main pretty lightweight in terms of development as we are a digital agency mostly designing and building websites - so this is not a City IT position we usually recruit via creative courses (and have good links with some universities) where graduates have a desire to move into a more technical role. So we look for Flash development (AS3 with OO) and web dev such as php with mysql.

edit: FYI we don't normally have an issue with recruitment at these wage levels during the summer period due to our links with universities: and graduates seem pretty happy to start on the wage we offer as like I said there is good progression. The problem always arrises when we try to recruit after the summer when most UK students - at least the quality ones - have already taken up positions.

aren't those creative skills less likely to be produced by Indian universities? also, you would have a creative cultural bias that Indians might find hard to replicate?

I mean - in more pure techie stuff, Oracle, COBOL, C++ etc, it's easy to churn out programmers from Indian universities, cultural and aesthetic qualities don't come into it??

[goldbug9999]

My company is currently advertising for a junior dirt cheap web developer (Digital agency in London) and so far we have 30 CV's - only 2 of those CV's are from British born candidates the rest from overseas with the majority being from Asia.

We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

In london 25K is a pittance.

[Djini]

Let them.

The Chickens will soon come home to roost when they realise the vast majority if these 'foreign' workers are usually a combination of:

1. 'Paper MCSEs' (or CCNA, CompTIA, ITIL, etc etc) who can't do ANYTHING except follow someone else's walkthroughs.

2. Have bought-and-paid-for degrees in IT from 'universities' in their home country that isn't even remotely close to the quality of education here in teh UK.

3. Have virtually no experience whatsoever in the field past the barn-chicken call-centre they worked in following a set-piece of instructions written by someone else (usually in Europe/USA or SA).

4. Have simply got the qualifications and bits of paper nessesary to bluff their way into a job that gives them a visa, so they can escape their native country.

The whole 'offshore to india' idea blew up in everyone's faces that done it for IT because those guys they offshored the jobs and paid peanuts to knew presicely ***-all about how to do the job, and they ended up having to bring it all back to the UK and Europe at great expense in the end.

[MinceBalls]

aren't those creative skills less likely to be produced by Indian universities? also, you would have a creative cultural bias that Indians might find hard to replicate?

I mean - in more pure techie stuff, Oracle, COBOL, C++ etc, it's easy to churn out programmers from Indian universities, cultural and aesthetic qualities don't come into it??

Sorry, maybe we've got our wires crossed: our links with universities - and where we get most of our graduates are UK universities - Bourmouth being a exmple - for the reasons you describe. I don't have any links to Indian Universities and don't employ anyone from overseas.

[Si1]

Sorry, maybe we've got our wires crossed: our links with universities - and where we get most of our graduates are UK universities - Bourmouth being a exmple - for the reasons you describe. I don't have any links to Indian Universities and don't employ anyone from overseas.

yep

let me reframe myself:

as far as I know, techie IT wages are suppressed in the UK where Indians can compete, which is in a lot of monkey-programming roles

in your field, Indians can't compete, so wages are better

close?

[Si1]

Let them.

The Chickens will soon come home to roost when they realise the vast majority if these 'foreign' workers are usually a combination of:

1. 'Paper MCSEs' (or CCNA, CompTIA, ITIL, etc etc) who can't do ANYTHING except follow someone else's walkthroughs.

2. Have bought-and-paid-for degrees in IT from 'universities' in their home country that isn't even remotely close to the quality of education here in teh UK.

3. Have virtually no experience whatsoever in the field past the barn-chicken call-centre they worked in following a set-piece of instructions written by someone else (usually in Europe/USA or SA).

4. Have simply got the qualifications and bits of paper nessesary to bluff their way into a job that gives them a visa, so they can escape their native country.

The whole 'offshore to india' idea blew up in everyone's faces that done it for IT because those guys they offshored the jobs and paid peanuts to knew presicely ***-all about how to do the job, and they ended up having to bring it all back to the UK and Europe at great expense in the end.

trouble is - most UK-born techies are just as bad, and the work is badly monitored so quality is never rewarded

[MinceBalls]

In london 25K is a pittance.

No it’s not for a graduate with no commercial experience who will need investment in order for him/her to be commercially useful. Add to that we review wages @ 3 months and 6 months and it isn’t so cr@ppy.

Graduates should think about progression in their profession not just $$; that’s what I did, I started on very little: 14K in London as a junior developer in 1996 and after 2 years of being poor but being thrown in at the deep end I went freelance and made 60K per year for a few years (1999 and 2000). I then set up a business with 40K which I had saved from these 2 years. I saw the whole thing as a plan and I executed it - the first few years I was poor but it was worth it in the end.

Life isn’t as simple as obtaining the highest possible wage from day one as a graduate. It is about obtaining the knowledge and experience you will need for future earning capacity and long term goals.

Unfortunately I do agree that the cost of living - housing - is dampening the youth’s ability to take the decisions that may be better for their long term future / goals.

[MinceBalls]

yep

let me reframe myself:

as far as I know, techie IT wages are suppressed in the UK where Indians can compete, which is in a lot of monkey-programming roles

in your field, Indians can't compete, so wages are better

close?

Well that sounds about right but I am currently being accused of paying pittance! If I was paying pittance I'd be offereing 17K for a graduate position which I know from first hand is happening accross many digital agencies in London but I am not prepared to do. edit, and BTW: there is now a trend for a lot of agencies to ask graduates to work for free for up to 3 months to prove themselves.. this is a disgrace!

As for other IT jobs in London, I cannot see this surpression of wages that people describe: I have 3 mates - close mates - who all work in the city as sys admin or developers and the smallest wage they are on is £500 per day. That's not to say that what you describe isn't happening.

Edited October 21, 2010 by MinceBalls

[Gone baby gone]

Oh, I've justed popped next door to a few guys I know, they are also a digital agency and they have 3 new graduates - all British born - and their starting wage is 17-19K (17 for designers and 19 for developers). These developers live in shared houses much like I did when I came to London - renting with mates in ok areas, go out drinking in trendy bars and generally doing what 22 year olds do. Obviously skint but that's what you are as a graduate isn't it? I was. But then 1 years experiece and suddenly they can get work elsewhere on much higher wages. The hard work pays off.

£19K for developers (developing pretty much any kind of software / websites, etc) in London is in line with the rates paid in 1997-98, so I can see precisely why no graduate would want to bother with a career in IT, especially as the rug is increasingly likely to be pulled from under their feet when they get to more senior roles.

The IT skills shortage is a self-fulfilling prophecy - the more Indians they bring, the fewer locals want to pursue it as a career.

[Si1]

Well that sounds about right but I am currently being accused of paying pittance! If I was paying pittance I'd be offereing 17K for a graduate position which I know from first hand is happening accross many digital agencies in London but I am not prepared to do.

fair enough

As for other IT jobs in London, I cannot see this surpression of wages that people describe: I have 3 mates - close mates - who all work in the city as sys admin or developers and the smallest wage they are on is £500 per day. That's not to say that what you describe isn't happening.

fair enough again - my experience is the regions, the wages seem radically different to London, but I also feel the competence and competitiveness is higher in London

[MinceBalls]

£19K for developers (developing pretty much any kind of software / websites, etc) in London is in line with the rates paid in 1997-98, so I can see precisely why no graduate would want to bother with a career in IT, especially as the rug is increasingly likely to be pulled from under their feet when they get to more senior roles.

The IT skills shortage is a self-fulfilling prophecy - the more Indians they bring, the fewer locals want to pursue it as a career.

14K 1996; see previous posts

[Gone baby gone]

14K 1996; see previous posts

You were underpaid. I was on £12K working at the bottom of the ladder in a regional local authority IT department in 1994. Moved to London in 1995 and started on £20K, rapidly increased to £30K before Labour won the election. AND I'm not a graduate!

Like I said, youngsters aren't stupid, when they see their older siblings getting paid below average wages for a fairly skilled job, they move on to something else. IT, unlike Law, Accountancy or Medicine has no professional body to restrict supply, so it's the first one to die.

[TwoWolves]

Let them.

The Chickens will soon come home to roost when they realise the vast majority if these 'foreign' workers are usually a combination of:

1. 'Paper MCSEs' (or CCNA, CompTIA, ITIL, etc etc) who can't do ANYTHING except follow someone else's walkthroughs.

2. Have bought-and-paid-for degrees in IT from 'universities' in their home country that isn't even remotely close to the quality of education here in teh UK.

3. Have virtually no experience whatsoever in the field past the barn-chicken call-centre they worked in following a set-piece of instructions written by someone else (usually in Europe/USA or SA).

4. Have simply got the qualifications and bits of paper nessesary to bluff their way into a job that gives them a visa, so they can escape their native country.

The whole 'offshore to india' idea blew up in everyone's faces that done it for IT because those guys they offshored the jobs and paid peanuts to knew presicely ***-all about how to do the job, and they ended up having to bring it all back to the UK and Europe at great expense in the end.

+1.

Spot on. I have to do the final technical interview for these people for our project, it is clear that most of the CVs are utterly fictitious.

[Si1]

You were underpaid. I was on £12K working at the bottom of the ladder in a regional local authority IT department in 1994. Moved to London in 1995 and started on £20K, rapidly increased to £30K before Labour won the election. AND I'm not a graduate!

Like I said, youngsters aren't stupid, when they see their older siblings getting paid below average wages for a fairly skilled job, they move on to something else. IT, unlike Law, Accountancy or Medicine has no professional body to restrict supply, so it's the first one to die.

well there IS european chartered It professional status - however it is roundly ignored for some reason

I suppose, say, bad lawyers are transparent by the number of cases they lose, whereas bad analysts and programmers are harder to identify, since IT projects tend to be hard to judge by outsiders

[Gone baby gone]

well there IS european chartered It professional status - however it is roundly ignored for some reason

I suppose, say, bad lawyers are transparent by the number of cases they lose, whereas bad analysts and programmers are harder to identify, since IT projects tend to be hard to judge by outsiders

It's much simpler than that. Lawyers can't practise without being recognised by their professional body, whereas in IT no such restriction exists.

There is a not small degree of irony in the fact that the only jobs that still have the equivalent of union "closed shop" protection, are those occupied by the upper-middle class.

[billybong]

It's effectively ANY professional, managerial or skilled worker and what about companies on the government payroll at cost plus who just want numbers on their payroll to justify hours claimed, competence not a hugely significant factor - just numbers of employees.

And who voted for this new policy in the general election, there didn't seem to be anything about it in any of the manifestos - and that was only 5 months ago.

Edited October 21, 2010 by billybong

[Papa Serf]

It's effectively ANY professional, managerial or skilled worker and what about companies on the government payroll at cost plus who just want numbers on their payroll to justify hours claimed, competence not a hugely signifiacant factor - just numbers of employees.

And who voted for this new policy in the general election, there didn't seem to be anything about it in any of the manifestos - and that was only 5 months ago.

There was a policy but it was the complete reverse of this.

[Tiger Woods?]

No it isn't; where do you get your facts or are they made up? I started in London as a junior developer in 1996 after a MSc in Computer Science on 14K. Everyone on my course who got jobs in the South East got between 13-17K. This is fact. I believe you have made your figures up.

I took an entry level development job at a non-bank company in 1997. This was Suffolk and not London. I was paid just under 20k, as was everyone else in that intake. I think people on your course got shafted.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Tiger Woods?

[Si1]

I took an entry level development job at a non-bank company in 1997. This was Suffolk and not London. I was paid just under 20k, as was everyone else in that intake. I think people on your course got shafted.

Suffolk / Cambs high tech area tho? I knew a techie do very will as intro job, about 17k, in 1997

[fluffy666]

It's effectively ANY professional, managerial or skilled worker and what about companies on the government payroll at cost plus who just want numbers on their payroll to justify hours claimed, competence not a hugely signifiacant factor - just numbers of employees.

And who voted for this new policy in the general election, there didn't seem to be anything about it in any of the manifestos - and that was only 5 months ago.

Well, over 1 in 5 people who were eligible to vote (1 in 6 of the population) voted for the Conservatives, who at least mentioned spending cuts.

[Toto deVeer]

At least this will help to reduce unemployment....

In India.. :angry:

[MinceBalls]

I took an entry level development job at a non-bank company in 1997. This was Suffolk and not London. I was paid just under 20k, as was everyone else in that intake. I think people on your course got shafted.

I didn't get shafted; I used the company who threw me in at the deep end to gain all the experience and knowledge I needed in order to move on - after 10 months - to a better paid job. The first few years of a career are about deciding on a plan for your future and selecting the right course of action for that plan; not getting the best paid job available at the time. I guess this is too entrepreneurial for some though judging by some of the responses.

[South Lorne]

I didn't get shafted; I used the company who threw me in at the deep end to gain all the experience and knowledge I needed in order to move on - after 10 months - to a better paid job. The first few years of a career are about deciding on a plan for your future and selecting the right course of action for that plan; not getting the best paid job available at the time. I guess this is too entrepreneurial for some though judging by some of the responses.

...you are talking from the point of view of a wealth creator ...the challenge (if it can be called that) is from 'Civil Servants'..........

Edited October 21, 2010 by South Lorne

[PopGun]

I didn't get shafted; I used the company who threw me in at the deep end to gain all the experience and knowledge I needed in order to move on - after 10 months - to a better paid job. The first few years of a career are about deciding on a plan for your future and selecting the right course of action for that plan; not getting the best paid job available at the time. I guess this is too entrepreneurial for some though judging by some of the responses.

And................................luck!

Plenty out there who started out in a similar position, with tthe promise of future opportunity that's never forthcoming.

[Boom Boom]

In London yes spot on, however up narth £20-25k is a very good wage in many locations. Imagine how far it would go if sent back to Mumbai? IT/Analyst positions at entry/grad level can still fetch over £18k, with four times less living costs.

The answer is simple. Untill living cost sanity is reclaimed in the capital, don't work there.

Right, but the same jobs in the North pay about 16k, so you can't win.