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Trade Deal With India

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It seems phase 2 of the rape of IT is udnerway then :( This will do nothing but drive down wages even further.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8051349/India-trade-deal-with-EU-will-allow-thousands-of-immigrants-into-Britain.html

India trade deal with EU will allow thousands of immigrants into Britain

Thousands of Indian workers will be allowed into Britain under a new European Union trade deal that threatens to overturn the Coalition's pledge severely to limit immigration.

By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels

Published: 9:30PM BST 08 Oct 2010

135 Comments

Both Vince Cable (left) and William Hague (right) are in favour of the 'free trade agreement' with India Photo: PA

A planned "free trade agreement" with India, to be signed this December, will give skilled Indian IT workers, engineers and managers easy passage into Europe in return for European companies gaining access to India's huge domestic market.

The deal has split some of the most senior figures in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition. Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, and William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, argue that the EU-India agreement must go ahead because it is worth hundreds of millions of pounds to business. But David Cameron, the Prime Minister, and Theresa May, the Home Secretary, are opposed. They, and other Conservatives, have insisted that the government uphold a high-profile pledge to bring down net immigration, which is currently at 176,000 entrants a year.

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Cabinet talks over the deal begin next week and senior government sources have admitted that "the circle must be squared" to thrash out a government agreement that protects the country from increased immigration without damaging British industry.

The European Commission has asked for comments by the end of October from the Cabinet and other EU governments on a negotiating position that was hammered out with the Indians over the summer.

India has insisted on increased mobility for its skilled workers in return for reduced tariffs on European products and the lifting of some restrictions on businesses bidding for public procurement contracts.

Under the current EU negotiating position, Indians who are skilled professionals will be able to work in any EU country under contract. The UK will be bound by any final EU agreement and British companies will be able to recruit in sectors such as information technology, management consultancy and engineering.

Many Conservative politicians fear the trade deal will undercut the wages of British managers and make a nonsense of a promise to cap immigration from non-EU countries.

Philip Davies, the Conservative MP for Shipley, said: "I am not a big fan of the EU doing trade deals on our behalf. My personal view is that the immigration cap is non-negotiable."

The UK is usually on the free-trade wing of the EU and British is business is concerned that the country could instead be aligned with more protectionist countries such as France.

David Frost, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, said companies needed to have the ability to recruit skilled employees from outside Britain. "The UK must maintain its position as a member state that is an advocate of free trade, and we must surrender no ground to protectionism," he said. "We cannot allow any proposal to improve the UK-India trade relationship to be delayed because of disagreements within Europe over the movement of highly skilled migrants."

One problem for the Coalition is that the deal struck between Liberal Democrats and Conservatives agrees on both a limit on immigration and on forging deeper ties with India. Damian Green, the immigration minister, has already said that new annual quotas would be flexible enough to allow more Indian businessmen and professionals to move to Britain as trade between the two countries increased.

A Brussels study has predicted that under an EU-wide deal with India, Europe’s economy would grow by £3.9 billion a year.

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Dont worry.

Im sure many of those who immigrate will not be the productive " IT workers, engineers and managers", but will in fact have their eye on an easy life on benefits.

After all, why work your ass off in India 10 hours a day for 10 pounds a day when you can come to UK and get that more than that sitting on your ass on welfare. And moaning about not getting enough.

Edited by blackgoose

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Dont worry.

Im sure many of those who immigrate will not be the productive " IT workers, engineers and managers", but will in fact have their eye on an easy life on benefits.

How will they qualify for benefits?

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http://www.thehindu.com/business/Economy/article609739.ece

Terming the ongoing India-European Union Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations “non-transparent” and a threat to the livelihoods of millions of people, Indian and European advocacy groups have warned that any hasty conclusion of the talks will only fuel poverty, inequality and environmental destruction.

The terms of a new deal between the EU and India, negotiations of which have been “hijacked” by big business and vested interests on both sides, will jeopardise the livelihood of millions of small farmers and patients, a joint study by the Belgium-based Corporate Europe Observatory and India-based India FDI Watch has revealed.

The report, ‘Trade invaders-how big business is driving the EU-India FTA negotiations,' released simultaneously in New Delhi and Brussels on Wednesday, gives an insight into how negotiators are working behind closed doors, hand-in-glove with industry to push a big business-first agenda.

Internal European Commission documents on secret meetings with corporate lobbyists show how European supermarket giants are demanding access to the Indian retail market, threatening the livelihood of street vendors and small retailers.

India FDI Watch director Dharmendra Kumar, who has co-authored the report, said: “The negotiations could damage the lives and livelihood of millions of India's poorest. Giant retailers such as Carrefour, Metro, Tesco and Bharti Retail are pushing for opening up India for foreign investment in multi-brand retail, which is now banned. The result will push street traders and small farmers into poverty and hunger.”

Good to see that working Brits and Indians will be shafted equally. I love the smell of Globalisation in the morning.

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Many Conservative politicians fear the trade deal will undercut the wages of British managers

Oh dear, chattering classes just woken up and realised we're all in this together means the globalists are going to destroy them too. And they thought it just meants Waynetta and her b'stard progeny.

Who knew!

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What a mess, I am a firm believer this country would be a better place to live if it had less people in it.

Our population will grow faster than we can cut carbon emissions, which means lots of juicy fines to be paid to the EU. More traffic and a greater burden on services, utilities and houses.

We will also be more reliant on overseas goods leaving us vunerable to disruptions in the supply chain. One day we will be hit by another volcano ash cloud or freezing temperators or a strike (here or abroad) and the whole thing will grind to a halt, a week or two of no food imports for what ever reason and we will have a real problem.

But we can't complain, f^ck it I will.

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It seems phase 2 of the rape of IT is udnerway then :( This will do nothing but drive down wages even further.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8051349/India-trade-deal-with-EU-will-allow-thousands-of-immigrants-into-Britain.html

This is about letting people in though isn't it? Not allowing more jobs to go offshore. Whilst I understand many people see no difference there is a distinct difference economically. Anyhow, I do have my own concerns but it is a complicated issue; I can only give my own view and experience of this below:

My company is currently advertising for a junior web developer (Digital agency in London) and so far we have 30 CV's - only 2 of those CV's are from British born candidates the rest from overseas with the majority being from Asia. There seems to be a distinct lack of young UK talent within IT. If you go to any university and look at who is doing the IT related courses you will discover the exact same thing.

We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

This is obviously a problem because there is demand for young, skilled IT graduates and it is a shame that we cannot fulfil our own requirements as a country especially with the economic problems and coming unemployment; how do we encourage our ‘own’ to engage within the industries and with the skills we need? It doesn’t seem like we are doing that very well and hence are having to ship in people to fill the void.

Answers on a postcard!

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My company is currently advertising for a junior web developer (Digital agency in London) and so far we have 30 CV's - only 2 of those CV's are from British born candidates the rest from overseas with the majority being from Asia. There seems to be a distinct lack of young UK talent within IT. If you go to any university and look at who is doing the IT related courses you will discover the exact same thing.

I can beat that, one of my friends who runs a small software house advertised for a Java web developer last year... 150-odd CVs, only about 20 were from UK citizens, the rest were from people on a visa and some were from people still in India who wanted him to sponsor their visa!

We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

This is obviously a problem because there is demand for young, skilled IT graduates and it is a shame that we cannot fulfil our own requirements as a country especially with the economic problems and coming unemployment; how do we encourage our ‘own’ to engage within the industries and with the skills we need? It doesn’t seem like we are doing that very well and hence are having to ship in people to fill the void.

Answers on a postcard!

The answer is - people have stopped studying IT related degrees, because they've seen what's happened to the UK industry over the last 5-7 years. For those who do study anything IT related, the last thing they want is a technical job, because that is at high risk of being offshored or outsourced or at the very least have their wages suppressed by immigration.

£20K is the kind of salary that graduate positions were paying in London and the South-East in 1997.

I rest my case.

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British people not seeing a future in it? Wages have been driven down for a lot of IT jobs so people choose... I dunno....property development instead

Nail on head.

If I wasn't already in IT, I wouldn't choose to get into it. The salaries and contract rates have been stagnant for years, dropping in many cases.

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This is about letting people in though isn't it? Not allowing more jobs to go offshore. Whilst I understand many people see no difference there is a distinct difference economically. Anyhow, I do have my own concerns but it is a complicated issue; I can only give my own view and experience of this below:

My company is currently advertising for a junior web developer (Digital agency in London) and so far we have 30 CV's - only 2 of those CV's are from British born candidates the rest from overseas with the majority being from Asia. There seems to be a distinct lack of young UK talent within IT. If you go to any university and look at who is doing the IT related courses you will discover the exact same thing.

We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

This is obviously a problem because there is demand for young, skilled IT graduates and it is a shame that we cannot fulfil our own requirements as a country especially with the economic problems and coming unemployment; how do we encourage our ‘own’ to engage within the industries and with the skills we need? It doesn’t seem like we are doing that very well and hence are having to ship in people to fill the void.

Answers on a postcard!

20-25K in London ? Wor lass was earning more than that for a sh1t housing office job 10 years ago. No way can UK workers live on that in London without considerable help from their parents.

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Nail on head.

If I wasn't already in IT, I wouldn't choose to get into it. The salaries and contract rates have been stagnant for years, dropping in many cases.

I was made redundunt from an IT support role last year, I honestly can not face another job like the last one. What few jobs are around are paying little more than an office admin role. Plus they expect the latest Microsoft qualifications which take about a year of study and need updating every 3 years. I would advise people do something else.

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This is about letting people in though isn't it? Not allowing more jobs to go offshore. Whilst I understand many people see no difference there is a distinct difference economically. Anyhow, I do have my own concerns but it is a complicated issue; I can only give my own view and experience of this below:

My company is currently advertising for a junior web developer (Digital agency in London) and so far we have 30 CV's - only 2 of those CV's are from British born candidates the rest from overseas with the majority being from Asia. There seems to be a distinct lack of young UK talent within IT. If you go to any university and look at who is doing the IT related courses you will discover the exact same thing.

We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

This is obviously a problem because there is demand for young, skilled IT graduates and it is a shame that we cannot fulfil our own requirements as a country especially with the economic problems and coming unemployment; how do we encourage our ‘own’ to engage within the industries and with the skills we need? It doesn’t seem like we are doing that very well and hence are having to ship in people to fill the void.

Answers on a postcard!

Ashtonished!

Where the feck are you advertising?

The country is CHOCK FULL of unemployed IT people, 30 CVs?? We got more like 30,000 last time my company advertised. 95% of them could probably have done the job but none were 'suitable' and we're still looking, apparently.

Skills crisis my ****.

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Stay in the country for 5 years then apply for naturalisation.

I am not sure but cannot be bothered to look up, whether 5 years is long enough under the new rules. I suspect it isn't, but even if it is you are trying to argue that someone would come over for 5 years, work in a white collar job, get a passport then jack it all in for a life on benefits (assuming they get fired, IIRC you cannot claim if you resign from your job).

It really is pretty ******ing tedious reading this forum at times.

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We are not paying pittance wages for a graduate position either - 20-25K - so it's not down to UK people being undercut by cheap overseas labour; I just don’t see the talent.

Answers on a postcard!

I am sorry but £20K = £1310 net take home per month

Could you have any kind of life living in a cheap bedsit or shared house on that kind of wage in London?

The Indian Nationals can do it because they are crammed into shared houses by the agencies and can send some money back home. After all its a lot cheaper to live in Bangalore than Barnet.

People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefor there must be a 'skills shortage'.

I would rather sit at home and scratch a living with affiliate marketing than work for youu with your poverty pay and attidude. :angry:

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I am not sure but cannot be bothered to look up, whether 5 years is long enough under the new rules. I suspect it isn't, but even if it is you are trying to argue that someone would come over for 5 years, work in a white collar job, get a passport then jack it all in for a life on benefits (assuming they get fired, IIRC you cannot claim if you resign from your job).

It really is pretty ******ing tedious reading this forum at times.

it only takes one of them to do it then they can bring their spouse over getting 80 years worth of benefits for 5 years of work.

Edited by blackgoose

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Many Conservative politicians fear the trade deal will undercut the wages of British managers

Not only British managers but British professionals of ANY description - so now it's not just the low wage jobs going to be taken by incomers (not that it was ever only those jobs).

How will they justify this, will they stilll be saying its only jobs that British people don't want to do.

And they're helping to make room for more by increasing the shared accomodation housing benefit age limit from 25 to 35 so releasing space.

Edited by billybong

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£20K is the kind of salary that graduate positions were paying in London and the South-East in 1997.

No it isn't; where do you get your facts or are they made up? I started in London as a junior developer in 1996 after a MSc in Computer Science on 14K. Everyone on my course who got jobs in the South East got between 13-17K. This is fact. I believe you have made your figures up.

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I am sorry but £20K = £1310 net take home per month

Could you have any kind of life living in a cheap bedsit or shared house on that kind of wage in London?

The Indian Nationals can do it because they are crammed into shared houses by the agencies and can send some money back home. After all its a lot cheaper to live in Bangalore than Barnet.

People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefor there must be a 'skills shortage'.

I would rather sit at home and scratch a living with affiliate marketing than work for youu with your poverty pay and attidude. :angry:

In London yes spot on, however up narth £20-25k is a very good wage in many locations. Imagine how far it would go if sent back to Mumbai? IT/Analyst positions at entry/grad level can still fetch over £18k, with four times less living costs.

The answer is simple. Untill living cost sanity is reclaimed in the capital, don't work there.

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I am sorry but £20K = £1310 net take home per month

Could you have any kind of life living in a cheap bedsit or shared house on that kind of wage in London?

The Indian Nationals can do it because they are crammed into shared houses by the agencies and can send some money back home. After all its a lot cheaper to live in Bangalore than Barnet.

People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefor there must be a 'skills shortage'.

I would rather sit at home and scratch a living with affiliate marketing than work for youu with your poverty pay and attidude. :angry:

You are a pr1k.

I said 20-25K for a graduate position with no commercial experience. We have developers here with 2 years commercial on 35K. This is ENTRY level with good opportunity to expand knowledge and wages quite rapidly (3 and 6 month reviews).

Do you know what the average graduate starting wage is in The South East? No, i didn't think so.

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You are a pr1k.

I said 20-25K for a graduate position with no commercial experience. We have developers here with 2 years commercial on 35K. This is ENTRY level with good opportunity to expand knowledge and wages quite rapidly (3 and 6 month reviews).

Do you know what the average graduate starting wage is in The South East? No, i didn't think so.

what dev environments and products do you develop with/for may I ask??

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I am sorry but £20K = £1310 net take home per month

Could you have any kind of life living in a cheap bedsit or shared house on that kind of wage in London?

The Indian Nationals can do it because they are crammed into shared houses by the agencies and can send some money back home. After all its a lot cheaper to live in Bangalore than Barnet.

People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefor there must be a 'skills shortage'.

I would rather sit at home and scratch a living with affiliate marketing than work for youu with your poverty pay and attidude. :angry:

Oh, I've justed popped next door to a few guys I know, they are also a digital agency and they have 3 new graduates - all British born - and their starting wage is 17-19K (17 for designers and 19 for developers). These developers live in shared houses much like I did when I came to London - renting with mates in ok areas, go out drinking in trendy bars and generally doing what 22 year olds do. Obviously skint but that's what you are as a graduate isn't it? I was. But then 1 years experiece and suddenly they can get work elsewhere on much higher wages. The hard work pays off.

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what dev environments and products do you develop with/for may I ask??

Good question as this is relevant; we are in the main pretty lightweight in terms of development as we are a digital agency mostly designing and building websites - so this is not a City IT position we usually recruit via creative courses (and have good links with some universities) where graduates have a desire to move into a more technical role. So we look for Flash development (AS3 with OO) and web dev such as php with mysql.

edit: FYI we don't normally have an issue with recruitment at these wage levels during the summer period due to our links with universities: and graduates seem pretty happy to start on the wage we offer as like I said there is good progression. The problem always arrises when we try to recruit after the summer when most UK students - at least the quality ones - have already taken up positions.

Edited by MinceBalls

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