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And................................luck!

:)

Plenty out there who started out in a similar position, with tthe promise of future opportunity that's never forthcoming.

I think i understand what you are saying but I am not sure. I would always advise that if an employer promises you future opportunity then make sure you have a timescale on that 'future' and if the opportunity doesn't materialise then leave for somewhere else. Always choose a job / employer who will provide you with the skills you need to move onto the next step in your life. Use your employer as much as they use you.

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I agree with MinceBalls.

I started a graduate developer role in London in 1996 on 15K. This progressively increased to 25K over the first year as I proved my worth.

20-25K sounds like a reasonable start for a graduate in London today, especially as MinceBalls intends to increase their pay in line with their experience.

It's the out of control London housing costs which are the issue here. Accusing small companies of paying a pittance because wages haven't tracked housing costs is attacking the symptoms rather than the illness.

Edited by PaulParanoia
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Stay in the country for 5 years then apply for naturalisation.

Or get a visa at the correct tier and you can bring your entire family over to enjoy free healthcare and education whilst not paying any taxes. This is happening now and involves inflows of hundreds of thousands of people. It's one of them policies you can't pin on any party. Labour started it. The LibsCons seem intent on carrying it on but that is a mistake, a serious strategic mistake.

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You are a pr1k.

I said 20-25K for a graduate position with no commercial experience. We have developers here with 2 years commercial on 35K. This is ENTRY level with good opportunity to expand knowledge and wages quite rapidly (3 and 6 month reviews).

Do you know what the average graduate starting wage is in The South East? No, i didn't think so.

You really are a c0ck!

My problem with your attidude is not the pittance wage. I accept that you are arguing that this is some kind of 'apprentice scheme' etc etc. However your job can ONLY appeal to people in a very specific circumstance. Ie: Living at home, being subsidised by Mum & Dad and having their knickers washed and ironed by Mum.

So with only the possibility of recruiting from such a small specific population you then claim there is a general skill shortage in IT.

C0ck :P

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The skill shortage, if any, has been manufactured by the companies that have all but shut down IT training schemes for MAs and graduates. The schemes have closed down because so many companies elected to use the ICT route to bring people in. They then claim there is a shortage and they need to bring people in which is a bit rich when they created their own shortage of skilled locals in the first place by exploiting immigration loopholes and restructuring their recruitment and training processes accordingly.

Edited by needsleep
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No it’s not for a graduate with no commercial experience who will need investment in order for him/her to be commercially useful. Add to that we review wages @ 3 months and 6 months and it isn’t so [email protected]

Graduates should think about progression in their profession not just $$; that’s what I did, I started on very little: 14K in London as a junior developer in 1996 and after 2 years of being poor but being thrown in at the deep end I went freelance and made 60K per year for a few years (1999 and 2000). I then set up a business with 40K which I had saved from these 2 years. I saw the whole thing as a plan and I executed it - the first few years I was poor but it was worth it in the end.

Life isn’t as simple as obtaining the highest possible wage from day one as a graduate. It is about obtaining the knowledge and experience you will need for future earning capacity and long term goals.

Unfortunately I do agree that the cost of living - housing - is dampening the youth’s ability to take the decisions that may be better for their long term future / goals.

Oh pur-lease! You went from 14k to 60k IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIGGEST DOT-COM BOOM IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, EVER!

That is not going to happen to in today's market. The grads who are not applying can see this and say, well 20-25k is SFA in London, I won't bother.

Whether you think 20-25k is enough is neither here nor there, you've got to react to the market.

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You really are a c0ck!

My problem with your attidude is not the pittance wage. I accept that you are arguing that this is some kind of 'apprentice scheme' etc etc. However your job can ONLY appeal to people in a very specific circumstance. Ie: Living at home, being subsidised by Mum & Dad and having their knickers washed and ironed by Mum.

So with only the possibility of recruiting from such a small specific population you then claim there is a general skill shortage in IT.

C0ck :P

Colin, I shouldn't have called you a Pr1ck but you were offensive first 'People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefore there must be a 'skills shortage'.'

It showed that you haven't thought through the things I was saying or paid any time to read my comments thoroughly; you'd just prefer to be offensive instead.

We are a small business (6 of us) who pay 20-25K for a graduate straight out of college. Normally that graduate needs a lot of hard work on our part - training - before they become commercially useful. I also stated that after 3 months, if the initial period has been successful that they will get a pay review (which always ends up with a rise of 10-20%). They then get another review after 6 months so will likely end the first year on 25-29K. This year the graduates also got a 1K bonus. They get 24 days holiday (instead of the 20 most get), their skills are pushed as far as they want – One of our graduates has just completed a part time MA which we partially funded and allowed him to move down to 3.5 days a week to complete.

I absolutely agree this is not massive money and that it isn't for everyone but they do OK, are pushed in terms of their skills progression and, should they want to move on after a year or so would have great commercial experience which will stand them in good stead for the next position.

FYI: the 2 graduates we got 2 years ago are still with me: one is on 28K the other 32K. They haven’t left, they said they enjoy working here in every review and are brilliant members of staff. We don’t make massive profits but I can assure you when we do make profit I share it with them – I get the same bonus as they do and my wages are only 10% higher than the next in line.

I have also already stated that I do not normally have a problem recruiting UK students which we normally do in the summer just after courses complete.

EDIT: You don't have to live with mum and dad on 25K either, I know loads of people who are living with their mates out of choice in places - not cheap places - like Stoke Newington and Hackney (where apparently the kids love to hang out these days) for £600 per month for a relatively nice terraced house with garden. I am not suggesting this is what everyone wants but a lot of 22 year olds do - i did the same and lived with mates until i was 27.

Edited by MinceBalls
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Oh pur-lease! You went from 14k to 60k IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIGGEST DOT-COM BOOM IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, EVER!

That is not going to happen to in today's market. The grads who are not applying can see this and say, well 20-25k is SFA in London, I won't bother.

Whether you think 20-25k is enough is neither here nor there, you've got to react to the market.

Please read previous post/s.

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ICTs or rather the blatant abuse of them are killing the UK IT industry. We have lost so many skills already that we may have passed the tipping point already. The place where I work (large UK bank) is staffed full of ICTs both onshore and loads more offshore resources and there is constant pressure to to reduce non ICT headcount even further.

Edit for lazy grammar.

Edited by Bear Monger
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Colin, I shouldn't have called you a Pr1ck but you were offensive first 'People like you actually make me sick when you can spout that £1300 per month is a decent salary and therefore there must be a 'skills shortage'.'

It showed that you haven't thought through the things I was saying or paid any time to read my comments thoroughly; you'd just prefer to be offensive instead.

We are a small business (6 of us) who pay 20-25K for a graduate straight out of college. Normally that graduate needs a lot of hard work on our part - training - before they become commercially useful. I also stated that after 3 months, if the initial period has been successful that they will get a pay review (which always ends up with a rise of 10-20%). They then get another review after 6 months so will likely end the first year on 25-29K. This year the graduates also got a 1K bonus. They get 24 days holiday (instead of the 20 most get), their skills are pushed as far as they want – One of our graduates has just completed a part time MA which we partially funded and allowed him to move down to 3.5 days a week to complete.

I absolutely agree this is not massive money and that it isn't for everyone but they do OK, are pushed in terms of their skills progression and, should they want to move on after a year or so would have great commercial experience which will stand them in good stead for the next position.

FYI: the 2 graduates we got 2 years ago are still with me: one is on 28K the other 32K. They haven’t left, they said they enjoy working here in every review and are brilliant members of staff. We don’t make massive profits but I can assure you when we do make profit I share it with them – I get the same bonus as they do and my wages are only 10% higher than the next in line.

I have also already stated that I do not normally have a problem recruiting UK students which we normally do in the summer just after courses complete.

EDIT: You don't have to live with mum and dad on 25K either, I know loads of people who are living with their mates out of choice in places - not cheap places - like Stoke Newington and Hackney (where apparently the kids love to hang out these days) for £600 per month for a relatively nice terraced house with garden. I am not suggesting this is what everyone wants but a lot of 22 year olds do - i did the same and lived with mates until i was 27.

No offense taken - I actually quite like trading mild insults! I guess, after your apology I owe you one for c0ck! :lol:

I should have phrased the above that your argument makes me sick, not you personally. :)

I'm not disputing anything you aree saying (except the 'skill shortage'). Your perspective on these matters is probably different to mine. I just know that I am sick and tired of seeing really good .net, java and c++ devs struggle to get contracts while the banks are choc full of Indian Nationals. (I don'r even blame them - I just wish I had their cost of living). So it's an emotive subject - I was out on the bench from last November to last July - sickening to think that you pay your taaxes to people who just want to sabotage your living. :o

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No offense taken - I actually quite like trading mild insults! I guess, after your apology I owe you one for c0ck! :lol:

I should have phrased the above that your argument makes me sick, not you personally. :)

I'm not disputing anything you aree saying (except the 'skill shortage'). Your perspective on these matters is probably different to mine. I just know that I am sick and tired of seeing really good .net, java and c++ devs struggle to get contracts while the banks are choc full of Indian Nationals. (I don'r even blame them - I just wish I had their cost of living). So it's an emotive subject - I was out on the bench from last November to last July - sickening to think that you pay your taaxes to people who just want to sabotage your living. :o

Very good :)

I know for sure that if we were looking for .net, java and c++ developers then we'd certainly have to pay a higher starting salary... we aren't loking for those skills though and TBH I don't know much about that world so i will take your word for it that there is no skills shortage in those areas.

Good luck with everything.

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Very good :)

I know for sure that if we were looking for .net, java and c++ developers then we'd certainly have to pay a higher starting salary... we aren't loking for those skills though and TBH I don't know much about that world so i will take your word for it that there is no skills shortage in those areas.

Good luck with everything.

Well, if it's any consolation I still think you're a **** and the wages you are paying are a joke.

Edited by Boom Boom
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Erm, I think that Billybong was referring to the Conservative pledge to cap immigration, nothing to do with spending cuts... :)

Hi DeepLurker

Thanks very much for clarifying that.

From the OP and the Telegraph link.

India trade deal with EU will allow thousands of immigrants into Britain

Thousands of Indian workers will be allowed into Britain under a new European Union trade deal that threatens to overturn the Coalition's pledge severely to limit immigration.

By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels

Published: 9:30PM BST 08 Oct 2010

135 Comments

Both Vince Cable (left) and William Hague (right) are in favour of the 'free trade agreement' with India.

A planned "free trade agreement" with India, to be signed this December, will give skilled Indian IT workers, engineers and managers easy passage into Europe in return for European companies gaining access to India's huge domestic market.

....

Many Conservative politicians fear the trade deal will undercut the wages of British managers and make a nonsense of a promise to cap immigration from non-EU countries.

....

Damian Green, the immigration minister, has already said that new annual quotas would be flexible enough to allow more Indian businessmen and professionals to move to Britain as trade between the two countries increased.

My point being that this new "free trade agreement" wasn't mentioned in the election manifestos that people voted on just a short 5 months ago. Nothing like it and most would say quite the opposite was promised by the Tories signed manifesto.

It's all just being sprung on people now that they've gained power.

Also trade agreements used to mean trade of goods and services and the like - not humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_pact

A trade pact (also known as trade agreement) is a wide ranging tax, tariff and trade pact that often includes investment guarantees. The most common trade pacts are of the preferential and free trade types are concluded in order to reduce (or eliminate) tariffs, quotas and other trade restrictions on items traded between the signatories.

Edited by billybong
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My point being that this new "free trade agreement" wasn't mentioned in the election manifestos that people voted on just a short 5 months ago. Nothing like it and most would say quite the opposite was promised by the Tories signed manifesto.

That's because it's an EU agreement, and since the EU Constitution... sorry... Lisbon Treaty was forced through without a referendum Parliament now has about as much control over Britain as your local council does.

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trouble is - most UK-born techies are just as bad, and the work is badly monitored so quality is never rewarded

Well said. The art of fault finding and fault resolution for the under 25's seems to be dying a death. Where I work, the "Help Desk" are only a tad more useful than an answering machine. It's a truly sad state of affairs when they don't even resort to trying a reboot before referring it to 2nd or even 3rd line support.

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Well said. The art of fault finding and fault resolution for the under 25's seems to be dying a death. Where I work, the "Help Desk" are only a tad more useful than an answering machine. It's a truly sad state of affairs when they don't even resort to trying a reboot before referring it to 2nd or even 3rd line support.

Blame the processes, not the people.

The unfortunate souls on the Hell Desk are not very different to the 2-legged robots that stand behind the counter at McDonalds.

They know that any deviation - no matter how slight - from procedure can result in their dismissal.

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