Bring Back The Poll Tax

[Crazy88s]

I think this would be a good idea, set at a sufficently high level we will have the deficit cleared in no time.

[Gman]

Q) Bring back the Poll Tax?

A) No.

[boynamedsue]

I think this would be a good idea, set at a sufficently high level we will have the deficit cleared in no time.

Yep, it was a winner the first time, but Thatcher just didn't have the spine to carry it through. Now we've got the Iron Toff in charge, I'm sure it'll work out fine.

**puts Ghost Town on I-Pod, fills milkbottles with petrol and giggles**

Edited May 12, 2010 by boynamedsue

[Crazy88s]

Seriously, if you analyse it why is the poll tax a bad thing?

Everyone benefits from things the poll tax pays for, in fact those that it supposedly hits hardest are the ones that use most of the services - its only fair.

Its is about time responsibility was shared.

[bobthe~]

Yep, it was a winner the first time, but Thatcher just didn't have the spine to carry it through. Now we've got the Iron Toff in charge, I'm sure it'll work out fine.

**puts Ghost Town on I-Pod, fills milkbottles with petrol and giggles**

You do know there was a 9 year gap between the "Ghost Town" riots and the Poll Tax riots?

More likely you would be putting Soul2Soul's "Back To Life" on and pretend that Labour, the Liberals and the Unions were not begging Major (as chancellor) to join the ERM.

[Injin]

Seriously, if you analyse it why is the poll tax a bad thing?

Stealing is wrong?

Everyone benefits from things the poll tax pays for, in fact those that it supposedly hits hardest are the ones that use most of the services - its only fair.

If everyone benefits, why does it have to be a tax?

Its is about time responsibility was shared.

it's about time responsibility was allocated to individuals.

if you want roads and schools, you pay for them and leave everyone else alone.

[bobthe~]

Seriously, if you analyse it why is the poll tax a bad thing?

Everyone benefits from things the poll tax pays for, in fact those that it supposedly hits hardest are the ones that use most of the services - its only fair.

Its is about time responsibility was shared.

Yes,

Why should a litlle old widowed lady sitting mortgage free in a 1 million pound mansion pay the same as a struggling family in a council house?

I heard that argument back in the day as well. Although it was framed somewhat differently by the Tories back then.

[Crazy88s]

Stealing is wrong?

If everyone benefits, why does it have to be a tax?

it's about time responsibility was allocated to individuals.

if you want roads and schools, you pay for them and leave everyone else alone.

Stealing is wrong but the poll tax is not stealing and is therfore not wrong - elementary logic.

Yes individuals I agree but that shoud include every person that is a tax payer.

Roads and schools are used by all either directly or indiretly

[Crazy88s]

Yes,

Why should a litlle old widowed lady sitting mortgage free in a 1 million pound mansion pay the same as a struggling family in a council house?

I heard that argument back in the day as well. Although it was framed somewhat differently by the Tories back then.

I am sure she pays her way, she should enjoy the fruits of her labour until she dies. The person you describe is often asset rich (house) and cash poor and probably does not burden society in any way. If that type of person is as well of as you think perhaps she also pays for her own medical bills.

She may employ people too.

No, I strongly advocate that if you make everyone responsible for poll tax it should make them realise that they have a duty to contribute to society.

Perhaps IHT still has its place, but that is a different argument.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Crazy88s

[The Eagle]

I think this would be a good idea,

I agree, it would be a good idea, since it would finally start a proper popular revolution in the UK, with the chance that it would get rid of the feudal system that still dominates (land ownership, house of lords, etc).

Edited May 12, 2010 by wise_eagle

[CrashConnoisseur]

Seriously, if you analyse it why is the poll tax a bad thing?

Everyone benefits from things the poll tax pays for, in fact those that it supposedly hits hardest are the ones that use most of the services - its only fair.

Its is about time responsibility was shared.

Everyone pays for around 80% of local services via general taxation and business rates. Council Tax typically only pays for 20% of a local council's budget. The value of property is enhanced by the provision of local services such as made up roads, drainage, local schools, steet-lighting, police, fire brigade, etc.. For owner-occupied property Council Tax is the only tax paid by the beneficiary on that increase in value.

When the Thatcher government replaced rates with the poll tax this was said to have "boosted house prices by probably another 15-or-something per cent"...

'Select Committee on Treasury Minutes of Evidence: Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)':

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtreasy/1092/8101402.htm

Professor Muellbauer: I have argued for 21 years now that taxation has a useful role to play in stabilising the housing market. In 1987 when Mrs Thatcher got rid of domestic rates and introduced the poll tax, at the height of that particular property bubble, that was a terribly destabilising mistake because it boosted house prices by probably another 15-or-something per cent at the very top of the bubble and made things far worse. Property taxation has a very useful role to play in stabilising house prices. The Danish economy is one where there was a successful example of that kind of tax system in operation. Unfortunately, in 2001, they stopped it under short-term political expediency and, as a result, they had a sharp rise in house prices thereafter...

[Dorkins]

We pretty much have the poll tax already, it's called council tax. A billionaire pays £2k a year for his sprawling mansion while his NMW cleaning lady pays £1k a year for her tiny flat. That's virtually a flat tax.

[Crazy88s]

Everyone pays for around 80% of local services via general taxation and business rates. Council Tax typically only pays for 20% of a local council's budget. The value of property is enhanced by the provision of local services such as made up roads, drainage, local schools, steet-lighting, police, fire brigade, etc.. For owner-occupied property Council Tax is the only tax paid by the beneficiary on that increase in value.

When the Thatcher government replaced rates with the poll tax this was said to have "boosted house prices by probably another 15-or-something per cent"...

'Select Committee on Treasury Minutes of Evidence: Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)':

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtreasy/1092/8101402.htm

You are correct, and with an increased revenue from community charge there could be a reduction in business rates and then perhaps

a) we can open up the boarded up shops

employ more people

the tax on business is too large

Also the closer the relationship between what you pay and the services one receives will increase efficiency. Noone understandably likes paying taxes, in the 80's the cnd badge wearing socialist morons should have had ago at the labour run councils if they were unhappy about the levels poll tax charge.

[erranta]

Yes,

Why should a litlle old widowed lady sitting mortgage free in a 1 million pound mansion pay the same as a struggling family in a council house?

I heard that argument back in the day as well. Although it was framed somewhat differently by the Tories back then.

Council bods would pay far more than the millionaire, as each individual is targetted to pay full whack over 16yrs/18yrs - which is why Poll taxes have been dissolved both times, leading to loss of government control & direct cause of UK riots & anarchy!

O.P who mentioned it is a deliberate Inflama!

[boynamedsue]

You do know there was a 9 year gap between the "Ghost Town" riots and the Poll Tax riots?

More likely you would be putting Soul2Soul's "Back To Life" on and pretend that Labour, the Liberals and the Unions were not begging Major (as chancellor) to join the ERM.

True, but there were no petrol bombs in the poll tax disturbances, so I though I'd go back to when both the riots and the soundtrack were a bit classier. I suppose I could have harked back to the original poll tax riots and listened to a lute solo while sharpening my scythe...

I'm a labour man, but I've got a bit of a soft spot for old Major. He should've devalued after he won in 92 though, according to Hattersley labour were going to do it the first day. Major laid the groundwork for the positive cultural changes that became the official national values under Blair, and he never used the police repressively as Thatcher did, and actively sought to depoliticise them.

[bobthe~]

I am sure she pays her way, she should enjoy the fruits of her labour until she dies. The person you describe is often asset rich (house) and cash poor and probably does not burden society in any way. If that type of person is as well of as you think perhaps she also pays for her own medical bills.

She may employ people too.

No, I strongly advocate that if you make everyone responsible for poll tax it should make them realise that they have a duty to contribute to society.

Perhaps IHT still has its place, but that is a different argument.

I had an answer, but unfortunately I could only read your first paragraphs in the style of Harry Enfield's "Tory Boy".

so content yourself with this Govey baby:

She gets a free TV License and a state pension. If she wants to live in a big house she can pay her ******ing council tax.

[tomwatkins]

I am sure she pays her way, she should enjoy the fruits of her labour until she dies. The person you describe is often asset rich (house) and cash poor and probably does not burden society in any way. If that type of person is as well of as you think perhaps she also pays for her own medical bills.

She may employ people too.

No, I strongly advocate that if you make everyone responsible for poll tax it should make them realise that they have a duty to contribute to society.

Perhaps IHT still has its place, but that is a different argument.

Never understood why IHT is not just IT. Why is it IHT? I know IT is information technology but so what?

[bobthe~]

True, but there were no petrol bombs in the poll tax disturbances, so I though I'd go back to when both the riots and the soundtrack were a bit classier. I suppose I could have harked back to the original poll tax riots and listened to a lute solo while sharpening my scythe...

I'm a labour man, but I've got a bit of a soft spot for old Major. He should've devalued after he won in 92 though, according to Hattersley labour were going to do it the first day. Major laid the groundwork for the positive cultural changes that became the official national values under Blair, and he never used the police repressively as Thatcher did, and actively sought to depoliticise them.

Indeed, i am sure Labour were going to devalue the pound because it genuinely was the right thing to do. But before we went in, they were saying how great it would be for business and stability, as were the moderate Tories. I am not sure what the Left were saying but Sir alan Walters was defionitely against it before we went in.

As an aside to your aside, I watched John Major in front of some committee on the parliament channel over the Xmas break (it was on and I only had freeview at the in-laws. He was very open and honest about his time in govt. I can't remember what it was about, otherwise I would give more details, but I was impressed.

And let's not forget that Major started the peace process in Norn Iron as well.

[boynamedsue]

And let's not forget that Major started the peace process in Norn Iron as well.

Started by Major, brought to fruition by Mowlam and sealed by Mandelson.

So why exactly is it Blair's legacy?

[tomwatkins]

Indeed, i am sure Labour were going to devalue the pound because it genuinely was the right thing to do. But before we went in, they were saying how great it would be for business and stability, as were the moderate Tories. I am not sure what the Left were saying but Sir alan Walters was defionitely against it before we went in.

As an aside to your aside, I watched John Major in front of some committee on the parliament channel over the Xmas break (it was on and I only had freeview at the in-laws. He was very open and honest about his time in govt. I can't remember what it was about, otherwise I would give more details, but I was impressed.

And let's not forget that Major started the peace process in Norn Iron as well.

People forget he was a pretty good Chancellor-he always looked rock solid in that job. Osborne? Do me a favour.

[boynamedsue]

duplicate post

Edited May 12, 2010 by boynamedsue

[boynamedsue]

And let's not forget that Major started the peace process in Norn Iron as well.

Oh yes, and let's not forget that the Ra actually tried to kill him, and he still spoke to them...

The rest of his government were a set of mongrels and wrong cocks though... only Hague had owt about him.

[LJAR]

If you want people to pay for their services you should actually make them pay for the ones they use and want, not the ones that the govt thinks we need and wants to provide.

A poll tax would be a gross affront to freedom of choice.

Therefore we should eliminate council taxes and central funding of councils and make all the services pay at source (or funded by local taxation). At the same time we should open up the market in the provision of those services to other players.

Maybe my bins would get collected weekly then (I'd be happy to pay extra for that.)

[winkie]

When poll tax first came out I was for it, now I can clearly see how wrong it was......It takes away choice from the people, if you want your big house you pay for it.......we are not all the same so why pay the same.

[Guest happy?]

Everyone pays for around 80% of local services via general taxation and business rates. Council Tax typically only pays for 20% of a local council's budget. The value of property is enhanced by the provision of local services such as made up roads, drainage, local schools, steet-lighting, police, fire brigade, etc.. For owner-occupied property Council Tax is the only tax paid by the beneficiary on that increase in value.

When the Thatcher government replaced rates with the poll tax this was said to have "boosted house prices by probably another 15-or-something per cent"...

'Select Committee on Treasury Minutes of Evidence: Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)':

http://www.publicati...092/8101402.htm

Fascinating quote on the impact of taxation on house prices - I'm always interested in the pragmatic.

On the original question: The poll tax was unfair - it was a regressive tax. More importantly, it proved impossible to collect. John Major - never bound by silly dogma in the way most of his colleagues realised it had failed completely, and the damaging effect this was having on service provision hence he abolished it in favour of council tax.