Injin Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Of course we're all concerned about it! The point of the OP is that all you guys who knock public sector pensions/workers might do better to turn your energies towards improving you're own. I have no doubt that there's no such thing as a gold plated pension with the criminals we have at the helm in this country and Tories will be no better. If they improve their pensions, the public secotr will simply steal the excess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wait & See Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 It's all about Pyramids........Innit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Quite aside from any moral argument its demographics which are going to drive a gigantic steak of reality through the heart of this jam tomorrow lunacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charterhouse Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Quite aside from any moral argument its demographics which are going to drive a gigantic steak of reality through the heart of this jam tomorrow lunacy. Yep, absolutely. I for one would be very concerned as to whether I was ever likely to get what I was promised if I was on a defined benefit/final salary pension. At least with a defined contribution one the money is actually there. Obviously though property is your real pension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I work on principle as well, and the concept of public sector workers enjoying terms of employment available to pretty much no-one in the private sector, as a result of using trade union contributions to bribe the labour government, quite frankly stinks.I've got a degree and a professional qualification so the scope for further improvement is limited. Unfortunately (and this is a point that seems to escape the public sector staff), working in a competetive labour market in a competetive industry it is not possible to secure the improvements that the state employees can gain by threatening to strike or withold funding from the governing party. If we could do this most of our jobs would quickly be re-located overseas. I work in the public sector and I have three degrees. Scope for your further development is massive as with all of us. We don't threaten to withold payments we just work hard to keep delivering. We haven't caused the problems we're all in... that came from the private sector, we're not cheating the tax man, have no bonuses, no perks, no glamour, crap wages (mostly). I really don't understand this vitriol, can someone explain it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Of course we're all concerned about it! The point of the OP is that all you guys who knock public sector pensions/workers might do better to turn your energies towards improving you're own. I have no doubt that there's no such thing as a gold plated pension with the criminals we have at the helm in this country and Tories will be no better. so we should raise a special tax on public sector workers to pay for private sector pensions, that what you mean, like for like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yep, absolutely. I for one would be very concerned as to whether I was ever likely to get what I was promised if I was on a defined benefit/final salary pension. At least with a defined contribution one the money is actually there. Obviously though property is your real pension. I don't see why I'm less qualified to comment than you certainly. I have no doubt that your right above. What's your point? Good that we'll get shafted too? Is that it, really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I for one would be very concerned as to whether I was ever likely to get what I was promised if I was on a defined benefit/final salary pension. At least with a defined contribution one the money is actually there. Me too. I am one of the lucky private sector employees that does get a good contribution (15%) from my employer. I am still a little dubious as to whether it will be worth anything when I do come to retire. It seems a little unfair that I am not allowed to touch it, but greedy fund managers and the tax man seem to be able to dip into it at will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I work in the public sector and I have three degrees. Scope for your further development is massive as with all of us. We don't threaten to withold payments we just work hard to keep delivering. We haven't caused the problems we're all in... that came from the private sector, we're not cheating the tax man, have no bonuses, no perks, no glamour, crap wages (mostly). I really don't understand this vitriol, can someone explain it? There are a couple of touchstone vitriol spewing issues on this site The ones I've noticed are: - BTL investors - any show with Kirsty or Sarah - any Labour politician - the public sector - the welfare state - planning regulations (mainly just Super Ted) - bankers (hi Charterhouse) I think its just populated by ultra right wing tories mainly... Right, i'll get my coat then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 If they improve their pensions, the public secotr will simply steal the excess. How will that work? The hedge funds will have paid most of it to senior staff and the gov't will claw the rest back to pay off the private sector debt way before I retire... I don't know what I'm paying for at all. Still it makes some people happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charterhouse Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I don't see why I'm less qualified to comment than you certainly.I have no doubt that your right above. What's your point? Good that we'll get shafted too? Is that it, really? I was only commenting that you made a random dig without actually critiquing anything I said. I'm quite happy to take semi-constructive criticism, but I do know quite a lot about pensions. My point isn't "good", it's far from it, it's that you should probably be making your own provisions in a private personal pension, just in case it all goes horribly wrong. Or saving for the future in other ways. I invest the full 7,200 (less when it was less obviously) in ISAs every year. If you get 5% return on that and the same every year for 25 years, that would give you a seperate pot of £343,635. Definitely worth doing if affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 so we should raise a special tax on public sector workers to pay for private sector pensions, that what you mean, like for like? Yawn. Is there a special tax on private sector workers to pay for mine? I pay tax as well, probably more than you and certainly more proportion than the big winners out there! I would agree with paying some more tax for the private sector pensions. They just need to figure out how to not give all their profits to shareholders I wouldn't suggest they pay the staff a bit less, less perks and bonuses etc in leiu of pension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 You misunderstand what public sector pensions are.They're not some kind of benefit. They're deferred salary. Scrap the public sector scheme. Fine. I'll take the money as salary, now, instead. It's six or two threes to me. That would be the most transparent approach. The thing about non-transparent pricing is that it hinders the purchaser in making an informed decision about whether to transact. Bigger salary now would almost certainly mean the taxpayer saying, "No thanks" to a significant chunk of the public sector (people are not realistically going to accept tax rises to fund it, and we can hardly expand our borrowing much further). Transparency would force heads out of the sand, though, and stop the ongoing rip-off of public-sector workers who are going to get screwed out of their deferred salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) I work in the public sector and I have three degrees. Scope for your further development is massive as with all of us. We don't threaten to withold payments we just work hard to keep delivering. We haven't caused the problems we're all in... that came from the private sector, we're not cheating the tax man, have no bonuses, no perks, no glamour, crap wages (mostly). I really don't understand this vitriol, can someone explain it? My point was that some public sector posters on this forum think improving your lot is as simple as stamping your feet and shouting a lot, it isn't. Don't get me wrong I'm sure that there are plenty of public sector workers out there who earn every penny; I'm also sure you'll agree that there are plenty who don't. Where does this vitriol come from? It comes from public sector workers enjoying unchanged pension rights whilst at the same time the government has wrecked private sector schemes. It comes from private sector workers being forced into paying more (through taxes) into public sector pension schemes than they do their own. In short the private sector workers have realised that we'll have to work beyond 70 to allow the public sector workers to retire at 60, and you wonder why we're p***ed off about it? Edited July 31, 2009 by Young Goat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toilet-Currency Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I pay 6.4% of my salary in pension contribtions and my employer pays 14.1%.As does every other teacher in the scheme. Seems funded enough to me as long as that continues. The teachers' scheme is one of the few funded bits isn't it? But even so, the true cost of funding the accrued entitlements is likely to be significantly more than your 20.5% contribution. The government systematically underestimates this cost, E.g. see p.6 of the link below. http://www.acus.org/files/publication_pdfs...ions-200906.pdf And the actuarial prediction of life expectancy will most likely turn out to be wrong. 20.5% wont be anywhere near enough if people retire at 65 and live to, say, 90 on average. If someone invents a magic pill that extends longevity, where will the extra money come from? Don't get me wrong- I am not against final salary schemes in principle, but i'm totally against the ponzi schemes that the unfunded ones are. I also think you are placing too much trust in a future government to protect your interests once scheme assumptions turn out to be incorrect and tough choices have to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I was only commenting that you made a random dig without actually critiquing anything I said. I'm quite happy to take semi-constructive criticism, but I do know quite a lot about pensions.My point isn't "good", it's far from it, it's that you should probably be making your own provisions in a private personal pension, just in case it all goes horribly wrong. Or saving for the future in other ways. I invest the full 7,200 (less when it was less obviously) in ISAs every year. If you get 5% return on that and the same every year for 25 years, that would give you a seperate pot of £343,635. Definitely worth doing if affordable. Yes, it would be nice to be able to insure myself against possible disaster with an alternative, me and my family would feel better about that. Unfortunately I work for the private sector... so definitely unaffordable. All this ****** about high public sector pay is absolutely laughable from my and most other public sector workers reality. £7,200 a year? You just don't know! A random dig? Not really. This stuff is not nice, why am I to blame? You and others should be a bit more sensitive or expect to cause offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Where does this vitriol come from? It comes from public sector workers enjoying unchanged pension rights whilst at the same time the government has wrecked private sector schemes. It comes from private sector workers being forced into paying more (through taxes) into public sector pension schemes than they do their own.In short the private sector workers have realised that we'll have to work beyond 70 to allow the public sector workers to retire at 60, and you wonder why we're p***ed off about it? I pay tax. I won't be able to afford to retire at 60. I'll probably be forced to retire before I can afford to. What are you talking about..? Not my reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charterhouse Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Here's a contrast for you, my Dad, public sector employee for 34 years, FORCED to retire at 55 with a ridiculously generous pension. My mum, would love to retire, but is still working at 60 and expecting to have to keep on going til 65-70, investing literally half of her income into the pension fund to actually have a reasonable pension, thanks to the tanking that her pension has taken due to an ill-advised run in with Equitable Life and the carnage in the stock market last year. I think pretty much everyone here could agree that is stupid. [e] Jonboy, sincere apologies if you find the ability to be able to invest 7,000 a year offensive. Even 3,000 a year would lead to a sum greater than £140,000, though, and more if you have more than 25 years to retirement. Edited July 31, 2009 by Charterhouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 What are you talking about..? Not my reality. Maybe not yours but there are plenty who do fit the description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Here's a contrast for you, my Dad, public sector employee for 34 years, FORCED to retire at 55 with a ridiculously generous pension. My mum, would love to retire, but is still working at 60 and expecting to have to keep on going til 65-70, investing literally half of her income into the pension fund to actually have a reasonable pension, thanks to the tanking that her pension has taken due to an ill-advised run in with Equitable Life and the carnage in the stock market last year.I think pretty much everyone here could agree that is stupid. Agreed, of course. [e] Jonboy, sincere apologies if you find the ability to be able to invest 7,000 a year offensive. Even 3,000 a year would lead to a sum greater than £140,000, though, and more if you have more than 25 years to retirement. Not offensive, just impossible. I don't mind you being paternalistic but your advice is outside reality for most public sector workers. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Maybe not yours but there are plenty who do fit the description. A minoriteee goateee... which is why I get so humpy about public sector predjudice. I will get back in the box now... I'd better do some work too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) A minoriteee goateee... which is why I get so humpy about public sector predjudice.I will get back in the box now... I'd better do some work too! A significant minoriteee. Edit: Quick question, how much extra do you think you could earn in the private sector. Edit2: Back in the box, home time already? Edited July 31, 2009 by Young Goat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Agreed, of course.Not offensive, just impossible. I don't mind you being paternalistic but your advice is outside reality for most public sector workers. That's all. doesn't this come round to a common enemy of bloated public sector management types? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) The biggest perk of the Civil Service compensation scheme was the enhanced payments for early retirement on redundancy These appear to be on the way out http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/200...-by-unions.html http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/n...E24B9B61862A0EE If you take out that benefit then the average Civil service 40/80 pension on is not much better than any surviving private sector final salary scheme and almost certainly far worse than those on offer to company directors in the banks etc who are almost certainly getting 40/60 of their final salary. As always its the rich that get the pleasure and the poor that get the pain. Believe me if you knock out job security and pension why would anyone in their right mind want to work in a government dole office. You would probably get more money and less hassle signing on at the other side of the desk. Edited July 31, 2009 by stenosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Here's a contrast for you, my Dad, public sector employee for 34 years, FORCED to retire at 55 with a ridiculously generous pension. My mum, would love to retire, but is still working at 60 and expecting to have to keep on going til 65-70, investing literally half of her income into the pension fund to actually have a reasonable pension, thanks to the tanking that her pension has taken due to an ill-advised run in with Equitable Life and the carnage in the stock market last year. Charterhouse - is it not true that, prior to the last 5 yrs, your dad, as a public sector employee, probably earned sub-average wages for his skills, compensated by an excellent pension? My main truck is with recent events where public sector salaries can be really excellent PLUS the excellent subsidised pension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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