The Masked Tulip Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Why am I taking all the risk for the current financial crisis - well, as far as my pension is concerned? I just had my pension statement through for the past year - since December 2007 it has lost a third of its value. Thank goodness I woke up to the pension con about 5 years ago and stopped paying money into my private pension scheme - the con / danger being that once the money is in you have no choice but to leave it in and watch it plummet when the stock market falls. (I think this has now changed with SIPPs allowing people to move to cash - although I understand that the SIPPs charges are going up.) But why are the millions of people with private pensions having to take the hit for the banking crisis and stock market falls? I mean, all those Public Sector workers out there on final salary schemes are having no affect on their future pensions - if anything, our taxes will be put up in order to help fund their cushy retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2thdr Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I posted on one of our NHS forums, that IMHO superannuation pension contributions are like a gigantic PONZI SCHEME. The amount of flak I had to endure was phenomenal. For people who are in the twilight of their careers, it makes sense. For me who has atleast 30 years of corvee, it is a stupid investment. All IFA's say I am stoopid. Stoopid is what stoopid does, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sparrow Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Why am I taking all the risk for the current financial crisis - well, as far as my pension is concerned?I just had my pension statement through for the past year - since December 2007 it has lost a third of its value. Thank goodness I woke up to the pension con about 5 years ago and stopped paying money into my private pension scheme - the con / danger being that once the money is in you have no choice but to leave it in and watch it plummet when the stock market falls. (I think this has now changed with SIPPs allowing people to move to cash - although I understand that the SIPPs charges are going up.) But why are the millions of people with private pensions having to take the hit for the banking crisis and stock market falls? I mean, all those Public Sector workers out there on final salary schemes are having no affect on their future pensions - if anything, our taxes will be put up in order to help fund their cushy retirement. I cancelled my Free Standing AVC in 1998 just after Brown removed tax releif on pension dividends. It was clear to me then that Labour would be back to their old ways of tax and spend. i have concluded since then that it is folly to place money in to any scheme managed and controlled by HM Government, you really are taking a massive risk, it is only a matter of time before all pensions are nationalised to pay for the "Baby Boom" generation of the fifties who are nearing retirment. As for public sectoe pensions, these are paid for from direct taxation, and at every level you will see taxes rising. there will have to be a MINIMUM 20% increase in your council tax to pay these pensions if employmet levels iin this sector of the economy continue as they are. Most people, and i include myself, trusted to property, and as i have no mortgage and can rent some out , i have a cushion, but for people on average incomes, with no asset base, they are going to see real pverty in old age. My son will graduate in a few years and i have advised him to leave the UK, and i would advise anyone under 35 to do the same, emigrate and get a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 most pension schemes overcharge in order to provide stockbrokers and IFAs with sportscars they cost OTOO 30-50% of the total fund value over its lifetime, so no wonder they do so badly, once all the implicit little extra charges are considered on top of the silly 1%+ AMCs they often have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxdiver Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Don't forget that annuity rates have changed as well - prices have tumbled over the last few years as the actuaries have realised that old folk aren't dying as quick as they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Why am I taking all the risk for the current financial crisis - well, as far as my pension is concerned?I just had my pension statement through for the past year - since December 2007 it has lost a third of its value. Thank goodness I woke up to the pension con about 5 years ago and stopped paying money into my private pension scheme - the con / danger being that once the money is in you have no choice but to leave it in and watch it plummet when the stock market falls. (I think this has now changed with SIPPs allowing people to move to cash - although I understand that the SIPPs charges are going up.) But why are the millions of people with private pensions having to take the hit for the banking crisis and stock market falls? I mean, all those Public Sector workers out there on final salary schemes are having no affect on their future pensions - if anything, our taxes will be put up in order to help fund their cushy retirement. I do wish you would stop blaming the public sector employees for your problems. You took a punt and you lost. Same as BTL investors. In fact your actions in investing in the equity markets helped fuel the unsustainable boom which has now turned to bust. You could have put your pension in a RPI linked money account but you were greedy. My PS pension is linked to my final income. My income has not kept up with RPI for years and I would have been better off in an RPI linked fund. Now my income will probably be cut in nominal as well as real terms and I suspect the government will renage on our pensions in the same way as they have renaged on our "independant" pay award setting over many years. Its tough for you. I have lost money on the stock market too but I don't blame anyone except the insider traders and my own gullibility for that. Edited July 6, 2009 by dr ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Don't forget that annuity rates have changed as well - prices have tumbled over the last few years as the actuaries have realised that old folk aren't dying as quick as they should be. Not only that meddling with base rates has brought them down as well., one of the biggest double hits out there. I was lucky 2007 standard pension -> Sipp -> cash before it all erupted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I do wish you would stop blaming the public sector employees for your problems.You took a punt and you lost. Same as BTL investors. In fact your actions in investing in the equity markets helped fuel the unsustainable boom which has now turned to bust. idiotic self-contradiction - which was it - investing or gambling he is accused of? Its tough for you. I have lost money on the stock market too but I don't blame anyone except the insider traders and my own gullibility for that. and what magic money tree pays for your pension? or is it actually everyone else who has to suffer for your benefit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sparrow Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Don't forget that annuity rates have changed as well - prices have tumbled over the last few years as the actuaries have realised that old folk aren't dying as quick as they should be. This is a great comment, if you live well, look after yourself, earn well and provide for your retirement you get shafted by those beer swilling fag smoking spendthrifts on the other side of the fence. There is a moral in this somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I do wish you would stop blaming the public sector employees for your problems.You took a punt and you lost. Same as BTL investors. In fact your actions in investing in the equity markets helped fuel the unsustainable boom which has now turned to bust. You could have put your pension in a RPI linked money account but you were greedy. My PS pension is linked to my final income. My income has not kept up with RPI for years and I would have been better off in an RPI linked fund. Now my income will probably be cut in nominal as well as real terms and I suspect the government will renage on our pensions in the same way as they have renaged on our "independant" pay award setting over many years. Its tough for you. I have lost money on the stock market too but I don't blame anyone except the insider traders and my own gullibility for that. You are absolutely right to counsel people not to "blame" public sectors wrokers... after all we each make our choices in life... however it remains my view that we cannot afford to spend what we do on public services and that means only obne thing... cuts... I would hope much can be done by cutting wastage and excess .. and part of that unfortunately is going to mean stopping the final salary pension provision for all public sector worker... as a nation we cannot afford this so it has to stop...... and I think it will do fairly soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sparrow Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I posted on one of our NHS forums, that IMHO superannuation pension contributions are like a gigantic PONZI SCHEME. The amount of flak I had to endure was phenomenal. For people who are in the twilight of their careers, it makes sense. For me who has atleast 30 years of corvee, it is a stupid investment. All IFA's say I am stoopid. Stoopid is what stoopid does, innit? NIC,s are a Ponzi scheme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 idiotic self-contradiction - which was it - investing or gambling he is accused of?and what magic money tree pays for your pension? or is it actually everyone else who has to suffer for your benefit? You really have very little useful to say don't you. I noticed this on other threads too. "Investing" is what the financial industry tell the punters. Like Gordon Brown "investing" in benefit payments and bank bailouts. In retrospect it turns out to have been a gamble as no real wealth has been created for years in most of the companies in which the "investments" were made. Financial sector are a case in point. My pension is an agreed part of my renumeration. I take it from your attitude that you are happy to work for nothing. So people suffer because I go to work you say? How much do you benefit the human race in the work you do if you don't mind me asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You are absolutely right to counsel people not to "blame" public sectors wrokers... after all we each make our choices in life... however it remains my view that we cannot afford to spend what we do on public services and that means only obne thing... cuts... I would hope much can be done by cutting wastage and excess .. and part of that unfortunately is going to mean stopping the final salary pension provision for all public sector worker... as a nation we cannot afford this so it has to stop...... and I think it will do fairly soon. You won't get something for nothing. Cut spending on health and education and the provision will be less. The people with money will pay for the service privately The people without money will have to do without. It works like this in poor countries - get used to it and start saving in case you get ill because that is what is being proposed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 most pension schemes overcharge in order to provide stockbrokers and IFAs with sportscarsthey cost OTOO 30-50% of the total fund value over its lifetime, so no wonder they do so badly, once all the implicit little extra charges are considered on top of the silly 1%+ AMCs they often have Yet more money stolen. NIC,s are a Ponzi scheme Yep it was never meant to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You won't get something for nothing.Cut spending on health and education and the provision will be less. The people with money will pay for the service privately The people without money will have to do without. It works like this in poor countries - get used to it and start saving in case you get ill because that is what is being proposed People are already doing without or getting services from abroad (dentistry for example), paying for something and not getting it is already accepted as part of the system. There are other examples - refuse collection, where you pay full wahck and end up receiving a shrinking service (to the point of becoming a health hazard). Then, one day, people will refuse to pay for stuff they are not getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 People are already doing without or getting services from abroad (dentistry for example), paying for something and not getting it is already accepted as part of the system. There are other examples - refuse collection, where you pay full wahck and end up receiving a shrinking service (to the point of becoming a health hazard).Then, one day, people will refuse to pay for stuff they are not getting. Quite correct. Widespread in the NHS already. You are unlikely to be seen by a doctor if you attend A&E now and even GPs are being replaced by "barefoot drs" ( called physicians assistants in the UK and US) who can order investigations and prescibe treatment without supervision. In some regions for some tumour types, the first qualified doctor you will see is the anaesthetist on the morning of your operation. I don't notice any tax refund being offered for the reduced service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 "Investing" is what the financial industry tell the punters. Like Gordon Brown "investing" in benefit payments and bank bailouts. In retrospect it turns out to have been a gamble as no real wealth has been created for years in most of the companies in which the "investments" were made. Financial sector are a case in point. that is just stupid -so the economy doesn't exist? profit is illegal or immoral? My pension is an agreed part of my renumeration. err, but you stated that due to likely real terms pay falls you lose, and this is somehow unfair? surely if your contract is fair and good, then this is not an issue, and as such a giving citizen then you shouldn't have a problem when the country is in so much debt? I take it from your attitude that you are happy to work for nothing. more idiocy So people suffer because I go to work you say? How much do you benefit the human race in the work you do if you don't mind me asking? a reasonable degree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Then, one day, people will refuse to pay for stuff they are not getting. You can't refuse. They will lock you up, ruin your life and your family's life and take away everything you have ever worked for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurgeonGeneral Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) I do wish you would stop blaming the public sector employees for your problems.You took a punt and you lost. Same as BTL investors. In fact your actions in investing in the equity markets helped fuel the unsustainable boom which has now turned to bust. You could have put your pension in a RPI linked money account but you were greedy. My PS pension is linked to my final income. My income has not kept up with RPI for years and I would have been better off in an RPI linked fund. Now my income will probably be cut in nominal as well as real terms and I suspect the government will renage on our pensions in the same way as they have renaged on our "independant" pay award setting over many years. Its tough for you. I have lost money on the stock market too but I don't blame anyone except the insider traders and my own gullibility for that. Agreed. No-one offers to share the six figure salaries, bonuses, BMWs etc. when the good times roll with doctors, nurses, teachers, police and firemen. The deal was lower pay in exchange for public service professionalism, resource constraints, no bonuses or company cars, final salary pension. Changing this would cause th UK to come to a halt. This is the ONE thing that unites all doctors;no change in the pension scheme. Nick Edited July 6, 2009 by SurgeonGeneral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You can't refuse. They will lock you up, ruin your life and your family's life and take away everything you have ever worked for. incorrect. you really love the idea that the state has one over everyone. There's an election next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogs Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Agreed.No-one offers to share the six figure salaries, bonuses, BMWs etc. when the good times roll with doctors, nurses, teachers, police and firemen. The deal was lower pay in exchange for public service professionalism, resource constraints, no bonuses or company cars, final salary pension. Changing this would cause th UK to come to a halt. This is the ONE thing that unites all doctors;no change in the pension scheme. Nick Not in HPC la-la-land where if we all wish very, very hard people will work for whatever we feel like paying them. Thats the interesting thing about left and right; equal and opposite delusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You can't refuse. They will lock you up, ruin your life and your family's life and take away everything you have ever worked for. Far too narrow an analysis. It can happen in many ways. Downsizing and giving up work, shifting attention to non-taxable stuff - not saving in pensions, not investing - just trading in spreadbets (simply an example, not a suggestion), keeping outgoings low and shifting to a job with minimal tax, emigration. Collectively - tax revolt, or revolt at the ballot box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minos Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You can't refuse. They will lock you up, ruin your life and your family's life and take away everything you have ever worked for. They can't lock up everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 They can't lock up everyone. but can't you see the thrill lefties get from the prospect of making people better thru violence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 that is just stupid -so the economy doesn't exist? profit is illegal or immoral?err, but you stated that due to likely real terms pay falls you lose, and this is somehow unfair? surely if your contract is fair and good, then this is not an issue, and as such a giving citizen then you shouldn't have a problem when the country is in so much debt? more idiocy a reasonable degree So how exactly does one person selling a cup of coffee/house/financial derivative to another prodce wealth? The rest of your comments don't need a response because they will stand for internet eternity as testiment to your lack of logic and critical faculties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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