bobthe~ Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So I got an email from someone I worked with a while back. This Fin Servs company outsourced all its IT department middle of last year to Tata Consultancy Services. All contractors went a few months later. Next month 50% of the permie staff are going to be canned in favour of workers offshore. And Brown and Mandy wanted to give them money to keep British Jobs in LandRover/Jaguar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Realist 8 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Thanks for the info. I predict we'll see more of this. British workers will be competing directly with those in 3rd World countries, on 3rd World wages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpo Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 youll know the cris is here when countries are exporting their jobs here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So I got an email from someone I worked with a while back.This Fin Servs company outsourced all its IT department middle of last year to Tata Consultancy Services. All contractors went a few months later. Next month 50% of the permie staff are going to be canned in favour of workers offshore. And Brown and Mandy wanted to give them money to keep British Jobs in LandRover/Jaguar... Forward the email to the Daily Mail and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepless Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 This has been going on for years. Especially the banks Indian IT companies charge alot less than contractors and a bit less than permanent staff. They are normally harder working and brighter too IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Buttafueco Jr Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 This has been going on for years. Especially the banksIndian IT companies charge alot less than contractors and a bit less than permanent staff. They are normally harder working and brighter too IMO. imo this is not true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthe~ Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 imo this is not true Well they are cheaper, but maybe not so experienced in the dark arts of undertanding requirements, or asking when they don't understand. Not all of them, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Well they are cheaper, but maybe not so experienced in the dark arts of undertanding requirements, or asking when they don't understand. Not all of them, obviously. Yeah they do need a bit more management. If there's one thing that large British organisations are good at - especially the banks - it's management Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_jay Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 This has been going on for years. Especially the banksIndian IT companies charge alot less than contractors and a bit less than permanent staff. They are normally harder working and brighter too IMO. Really? I remember working a night shift in our NOC. One of the support teams were training a load of Inidan Intel Enginners. Anyway one of the Intel team was an alcohic and asleep next thing i knew all the Indians followed his lead. At least he had been drinking all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tbatst2000 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So I got an email from someone I worked with a while back.This Fin Servs company outsourced all its IT department middle of last year to Tata Consultancy Services. All contractors went a few months later. Next month 50% of the permie staff are going to be canned in favour of workers offshore. And Brown and Mandy wanted to give them money to keep British Jobs in LandRover/Jaguar... Pearl Group right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffneck Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Thanks for the info.I predict we'll see more of this. British workers will be competing directly with those in 3rd World countries, on 3rd World wages. eh maybe gordon brown is doing the right think devaluing the pound will China/India be more unstable than western countries when they lose 1/4 of their jobs? if china/india are unstable enough it may mean companies bringing production back closer to home as it were no-one can predict what will happen in the next 2 years , the ball is up in the air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthe~ Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Pearl Group right? Wrong. Do you have info on Pearl then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tbatst2000 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Wrong.Do you have info on Pearl then? Only what's in the public domain: http://www.pearlgrouplimited.co.uk/section...b4-6b7690ad47e3 They outsourced all their policy servicing to TCS who took over their main building at the Lynchwood Centre (sp?). Now they're sacking all the remaining Pearl staff in Peterborough after the merger with Resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_duke_of_hazzard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This has been going on for years. Especially the banksIndian IT companies charge alot less than contractors and a bit less than permanent staff. They are normally harder working and brighter too IMO. They are normally the first, but def not the second. Being harder working in IT is not necessarily a good thing for your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthe~ Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Only what's in the public domain:http://www.pearlgrouplimited.co.uk/section...b4-6b7690ad47e3 They outsourced all their policy servicing to TCS who took over their main building at the Lynchwood Centre (sp?). Now they're sacking all the remaining Pearl staff in Peterborough after the merger with Resolution. Oh ok, thanks for that. I think the people at this other place were under no illusions what would happen, particularly since they had people perched on their shoulders doing "Knowledge Transfer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spark Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 BT have been outsourcing jobs to India for several years. They have a NOC near Cambridge and they brought loads of Indian contractors over to the Martlesham labs. We found out the Indian people were getting their standard wages plus a £1000 per month bonus for living in the UK. All the vendors on the 21CN project (Fujitsu, Alcatel etc) were using UK/European engineers and part of their tasks were to train up the Indian contractors on how the 21CN equipment could be provisioned and managed. I think BT plans to have another NOC over in India to manage the network, but hopefully they won't totally rely on the Indian NOC for all their network monitoring. The thing I noticed about the Indian guys was they picked up how to provision circuits etc, but really didn't have a clue when it came to fault-finding the network. They also always came to the vendors in packs of 2's or 3's rather than working on their own. So whilst the Indians are cheaper per head, it seems to be in their culture to sit around and discuss things to see if they could fix it. If they didn't they would just come in force and bully the vendors to faultfind and fix any network problems for them! They were okay if all procedures were written down and defined, but didn't seem to have the ability to think for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExecutiveSlaveBox Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) This has been going on for years. Especially the banksIndian IT companies charge alot less than contractors and a bit less than permanent staff. They are normally harder working and brighter too IMO. Your first statement about contractor cost may be true on a superficial level. However when you look at the the output of a decent contractor vs your average Indian or any other IT worker you may find that isn't the case. Everything else you said is certainly not my experience and I've worked in many companies around the world. If you've just been working exclusively at large banks/companies and not "proper" software companies this may be the case. As I'm speculating you may have more than your fair share of "pipe and slippers" there till they die type people. Edited January 21, 2009 by AuroraBorealis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExecutiveSlaveBox Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) BT have been outsourcing jobs to India for several years. They have a NOC near Cambridge and they brought loads of Indian contractors over to the Martlesham labs. We found out the Indian people were getting their standard wages plus a £1000 per month bonus for living in the UK. All the vendors on the 21CN project (Fujitsu, Alcatel etc) were using UK/European engineers and part of their tasks were to train up the Indian contractors on how the 21CN equipment could be provisioned and managed. I think BT plans to have another NOC over in India to manage the network, but hopefully they won't totally rely on the Indian NOC for all their network monitoring. The thing I noticed about the Indian guys was they picked up how to provision circuits etc, but really didn't have a clue when it came to fault-finding the network. They also always came to the vendors in packs of 2's or 3's rather than working on their own. So whilst the Indians are cheaper per head, it seems to be in their culture to sit around and discuss things to see if they could fix it. If they didn't they would just come in force and bully the vendors to faultfind and fix any network problems for them! They were okay if all procedures were written down and defined, but didn't seem to have the ability to think for themselves. It's the shortermism of outsourcing that really gets me. We are de-skilling our workforce as an alarming rate and sooner or later there will be no choice but to look abroad for workers. When that day arrives and they've got us by the balls I'm sure they will not be charging such favourable rates. As British companies reduce more and more to just shells it's only a matter of time before these tenders go directly to foreign competitors as they have the real delivery capacity. The other obvious problem as I see it is outsourcing is often throwing your own consumer base on the dole. As the myth of decoupling is exposed who will be buying broadband packages / banking services etc... when everyones on the "rock and role"? Obviously not people in India and China as we see the devastating effects there of consumer slow down in the west. Edited January 21, 2009 by AuroraBorealis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) It's the shortermism of outsourcing that really gets me. We are de-skilling our workforce as an alarming rate and sooner or later there will be no choice but to look abroad for workers.When that day arrives and they've got us by the balls I'm sure they will not be charging such favourable rates. As British companies reduce more and more to just shells it's only a matter of time before these tenders go directly to foreign competitors as they have the real delivery capacity. The other obvious problem as I see it is outsourcing is often throwing your own consumer base on the dole. As the myth of decoupling is exposed who will be buying broadband packages / banking services etc... when everyones on the "rock and role"? Obviously not people in India and China as we see the devastating effects there of consumer slow down in the west. I 100% agree, but it is not all doom and gloom. I work in an IT services business and still around 78% of mid size businesses and large swathes of work in the bigger companies is still in house. Therefore there is a chance to make a difference in that this market will grow, the decision is do I choose an Indian supplier? or do I choose a UK based supplier HQ'd in the UK that performs all work in the UK? We are seeing a driver towards using UK based companies for security and expertise reasons, the comment about typical diagnostic ability is true in my experience. Sorry replied to wrong post it was spark who mentioned diagnostic ability but you get the gist What can't cloud the issue it is the old you don't make anything argument, when all goods and services are made or delivered on shore than perhaps we can have that debate. What we can do if we are in any procurement situation is ask the question instead of hiding behind the 3 quotes and best value c***. Best value is what works for the country as well as the company. Edited January 21, 2009 by Greg Bowman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
this_prisoner_is_opting_out Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 They are normally the first, but def not the second.Being harder working in IT is not necessarily a good thing for your business. 15 hours a day of sh*t is still sh*t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepless Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) Your first statement about contractor cost may be true on a superficial level. However when you look at the the output of a decent contractor vs your average Indian or any other IT worker you may find that isn't the case.Everything else you said is certainly not my experience and I've worked in many companies around the world. If you've just been working exclusively at large banks/companies and not "proper" software companies this may be the case. As I'm speculating you may have more than your fair share of "pipe and slippers" there till they die type people. You've summed it up quite well (my previos jobs), but I can only offer my opinion based on experience. The Indian contractors I have worked with are presumably the best the outsourcing company have so to give a good impression. BTW HBOS accelerated their IT outsourcing to India through 2008. By my calculations about 300 UK jobs lost. Edited January 21, 2009 by sleepless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_duke_of_hazzard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 The thing I noticed about the Indian guys was they picked up how to provision circuits etc, but really didn't have a clue when it came to fault-finding the network. They also always came to the vendors in packs of 2's or 3's rather than working on their own. So whilst the Indians are cheaper per head, it seems to be in their culture to sit around and discuss things to see if they could fix it. If they didn't they would just come in force and bully the vendors to faultfind and fix any network problems for them! They were okay if all procedures were written down and defined, but didn't seem to have the ability to think for themselves. Their education system seems to be designed to prevent anyone from thinking; rather, they are trained to learn a lot of rules quickly and spout them back, with no understanding of what's going on. If any of these IT graduates become useful, it's by accident rather than design. Some are good, but they end up getting paid well enough by our standards anyway. My theory is that outsourcing to India is a cheap way to increase your share price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Their education system seems to be designed to prevent anyone from thinking; rather, they are trained to learn a lot of rules quickly and spout them back, with no understanding of what's going on. If any of these IT graduates become useful, it's by accident rather than design. Some are good, but they end up getting paid well enough by our standards anyway.My theory is that outsourcing to India is a cheap way to increase your share price. My theory is that in Europe people (usually males) do IT because they love it, it is their hobby ... In India it is a good job, good money ... In Europe if you do not know what to study you will go for media, MBA or marketing ... In India you will go for IT ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipsy Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Wrong.Do you have info on Pearl then? Would this be a financial services co. in a nice leafy part of Surrey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_duke_of_hazzard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 My theory is that in Europe people (usually males) do IT because they love it, it is their hobby ...In India it is a good job, good money ... In Europe if you do not know what to study you will go for media, MBA or marketing ... In India you will go for IT ... Very true; the difference between a genuinely motivated learner and one who's motivated for other reasons is enormous. I've been interviewing for developers for years. The single best indicator of their success is how interested they are in the interview questions, not how well they answer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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