Traktion

If the majority of people want a federal USofE, then I don't have a fundamental objection to that. What I object to, is it arriving via the back door, when most people in the UK don't seem to want it. Ofc, I have my own opinions on what I would prefer (and would vote for).

There are many similarities. Both are a union of sorts. Both result in a nationalism of sorts too. However, the regions which make up the UK are already in a very close union (with ISO country definition), with many powers centralised at the union level (core taxation/spending, defence and so forth). The EU on the other hand is not and does not. We can debate the merits of whether the EU should become a federal USofE, with each country ceeding their right to be an independent country in a similar way. However, this sort of relinquishing of sovereignty should absolutely be considered differently to just 'remaining' in the EU.

Nope. Play the ball, not the man.

Its not about me.

I didn't say the trading block, I said a trading block. I'm not against forming various deals to best suit the needs of the country - on the contrary. The attributes you give to the EU are exactly those which make me want to be distanced from it.

I can't see how my desire has such an impact in either.

It is still the same nationalism regardless. The EU hasn't fundamentally changed this.

That's the problem. I'm perfectly happy with being a member of a trading block. Whatever the EU now is (something between trading block and USofE, heading towards the latter), I don't want to be a part of it.

Creating a bigger nation to be nationalistic about does not break down nationalism. It just moves the goal posts.

We also have the internet, where people can communicate instantly with anyone in Europe and beyond. Communication is what helps people to see why there are more similarities than differences. As I'm sure many others do, I have friends all over Europe and the US. Could I ever see myself going to war with any of them? The level of propaganda required could not be believable enough and the levels required.

If the EU starts owning aircraft carriers, it goes beyond cooperating. It also goes way beyond what a trading block should ever need. It is fine for USofE, but some remainers tell us to fear not, as that will never happen.

I find that view shocking. It would be unprecedented afaik. To encourage it and argue it is weird to suggest it is a cause for concern is pretty nuts. This stuff is far from a trade block and is getting closer to a USofE. To wave it away is either irresponsible or disingenuous.

Maybe that is ok for now though. It doesn't need to be done in one big bite, especially if the sceptics need to be convinced it is a tenable future. There is a desire from some in the pro brexit camp to grab as much brexit as possible, for fear that the remainers will try to overturn it. It is an understandable strategy, but it ends up polarizing the debate and the populous. Finding a middle ground may actually result in less momuntum to remain/rejoin. This middle ground can change and evolve and politicians may be wise to consider this.

It takes years to enact a decision like brexit. It is childish to think otherwise.

If the EU just say no to an extension, it would also seem inevitable too. I wonder how long people and businesses and prepared to wait on a deal. It can't be healthy having such a big cloud of uncertainty hanging over it. How long before they start backing just leaving, over waiting for the seemingly impossible?