thecrashingisles Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I know it is - I meant fringes of the Balkans - not EU membership. Yes but the point is that there is a path to membership for all of the Balkan countries, and that helps give them an incentive to stay on the right path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said: Er, yes, absolutely ffs. So is Croatia on the edge of the balklans or in the middle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: Er, I have just shown you metrics from one of your links that puts Italy behind the UK, whilst demonstrably having better capability. It's shite But, back to what you were originally about, what question do you actually want to ask me? I just said that an specifically included the one that put Italy above the UK to show I'm not selective. Fact is 2nd or 3rd is not 5th as you were suggesting. I'm not asking you a question. If I was I would use a '?'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: So is Croatia on the edge of the balklans or in the middle? The Balkan Peninsula is bordered by the Adriatic Sea on the northwest, the Ionian Sea on the southwest, the Mediterranean and Aegean Sea on the south and southeast, and the Black Sea on the east and northeast. The northern border of the peninsula is variously defined. The highest point of the Balkans is Mount Musala 2,925 metres (9,596 ft) in the Rila mountain range.Balkans. Simple. Edited July 25, 2017 by HairyOb1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: I just said that an specifically included the one that put Italy above the UK to show I'm not selective. Fact is 2nd or 3rd is not 5th as you were suggesting. I'm not asking you a question. If I was I would use a '?'. Ah, ok, so I can say horse shite then. Not a question either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said: The Balkan Peninsula is bordered by the Adriatic Sea on the northwest, the Ionian Sea on the southwest, the Mediterranean and Aegean Sea on the south and southeast, and the Black Sea on the east and northeast. The northern border of the peninsula is variously defined. The highest point of the Balkans is Mount Musala 2,925 metres (9,596 ft) in the Rila mountain range.Balkans. Simple. Edge or middle? Here's a map to help you. Looks like the fringe to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Edge or middle? Here's a map to help you. Looks like the fringe to me! Ah, are you going full CCC on us? Croatia is part of the Balkans. Period. As is Bosnia. and all those above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said: Ah, are you going full CCC on us?Croatia is part of the Balkans. Period. As is Bosnia. and all those above. I bloody know it is. I said on the fringes of the Balkans, Jesus wept! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Current common definition in most of the English-speaking, western world, the countries commonly included in the Balkan region are: Albania Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Croatia Greece Macedonia Serbia Montenegro Kosova Turkey Slovenia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: I bloody know it is. I said on the fringes of the Balkans, Jesus wept! No, you're going CCC on us, an trying to be literal and suggest as it's on the fringes, it doesn't count Don't play the raw prawn mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Bosnia isn't in the EU, and the other two are on the fringes at best. Ground bloody zero. As to whether it counts, I guess that's open to interpretation. Is the UK part of Europe and all that? Is Turkey part of Europe etc. Edited July 25, 2017 by GrizzlyDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: Current common definition in most of the English-speaking, western world, the countries commonly included in the Balkan region are: Albania Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Croatia Greece Macedonia Serbia Montenegro Kosova Turkey Slovenia Great, absolutely great. you know fringe means on the edge right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: What European influence has the EU in the Balkans in 2017? EU Membership 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Bosnia isn't in the EU, and the other two are on the fringes at best. So fringes of the EU 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: As for the Balkans point, what I was aiming to demonstrate is that the EU hasn't had much of an influence in the Balkans (on the fringes at best) yet despite this they have pulled themselves out of the rubble of war and turned into something quite descent. Despite being members of the Eu in most parts. 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Italy and Spain don't have any aircraft carriers and France has one. 2, 1, 1. 27 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I know it is - I meant fringes of the Balkans - not EU membership. Ah, but this is different than your original point? 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: As to whether it counts, I guess that's open to interpretation. Is the UK part of Europe and all that? Is Turkey part of Europe etc. Do you actually know where you stand on any point, or is it fluid? Yes. and Yes, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Great, absolutely great. you know fringe means on the edge right? Fringe of Balkans or EU? Come on, I am sure you didn't mean both, despite spouting both. You're CCC's sock puppet and I claim my £10. Honest Dave, either lie down, or walk away, as you're a clown. PS Here's another one. As Belgium is on the fringes of Continental Europe, is it part of it or not. Netherlands? Denmark? Oh, ****** me, how about Portugal? That's on the edges too. Give up mate, go to bed... Edited July 25, 2017 by HairyOb1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said: Fringe of Balkans or EU? Come on, I am sure you didn't mean both, despite spouting both. You're CCC's sock puppet and I claim my £10. Honest Dave, either lie down, or walk away, as you're a clown. I meant fringes of the Balkans. Not fringes of the EU. Although I guess that is possible given the geography - but that wasn't my point. well I've learnt a lot about aircraft carriers tonight. Very useful! Definitely time to lie down ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I meant fringes of the Balkans. Not fringes of the EU. Although I guess that is possible given the geography - but that wasn't my point. well I've learnt a lot about aircraft carriers tonight. Very useful! Definitely time to lie down ?? It means nothing. You said Fringes of the EU (meaning politically), then you changed it, saying fringes of a a spatial area (The Balkans), meaning Portugal, et al, are on the 'spatial' fringes of the EU, which renders your argument useless. If I live in Devon, on the coast, I am still living in Devon, and the UK, even though I'd be on the fringes of both, using your analogy. Sometimes, you really do have to simply walk away. Edited July 25, 2017 by HairyOb1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: I wasn't, you mentioned that the might of the Italian and French navy was sunk by the RN in WW2, after I mentioned they had quite capable strength today. Please don't try that shit on me. However, I do agree that it is mostly irrelevant unless you take into consideration the notion of MAD, which in effect means no one is going to destroy the planet in conflict. I simply do not agree with the lingua Franca argument. You may have had a point back in the early 60's, but not today. The issue, I believe, is that we think ourselves as special given we're an island, despite evidence that we were once part of continental Europe. I truly think we, as English, think we're superior and I think that's the overriding issue here. This isn't liberal nonsense, this is a pragmatic view of my fellow people and what they say: we have an enormously overinflated opinion of who we are. We think we are superior? Our political system managed to avoid both fascism and communism in the last century and we paid an enormous price for that, if you haven't forgotten. Because we are an island - or Protestant or have common law or had the industrial revolution first ... etc there is more to the U.K. Than the fact it is an island. such differences should be celebrated not sneered at. Anti nationalism (of the kind Orwell observed in the English intelligentsia 80 years ago) and nationalism (which is very widespread all the EU still) are two sides of the same coin. At least in the uk a member of parliment can introduce a private members bill (such as happened to decriminalise homosexuality or legalise abortion) the Euro parliment forbids this, what is it about the individuals opinion that they so scared of? Is the uk superior? I'm not a rascist -Arab people are not intrinsically bad but what happens in chop chop square in RSA is abhorrent to nearly everyone here. If you were raised in that country you would almost certainly think it was justice. be careful when you adopt cultural relativism I'll say it again the EU is not working for the average British person. Edited July 26, 2017 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 UK Factory output growing sharply. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/uk-factory-output-grows-fastest-rate-since-mid-1990s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 26 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: We think we are superior? Our political system managed to avoid both fascism and communism in the last century and we paid an enormous price for that, if you haven't forgotten. Because we are an island - or Protestant or have common law or had the industrial revolution first ... etc there is more to the U.K. Than the fact it is an island. such differences should be celebrated not sneered at. Anti nationalism (of the kind Orwell observed in the English intelligentsia 80 years ago) and nationalism (which is very widespread all the EU still) are two sides of the same coin. At least in the uk a member of parliment can introduce a private members bill (such as happened to decriminalise homosexuality or legalise abortion) the Euro parliment forbids this, what is it about the individuals opinion that they so scared of? Is the uk superior? I'm not a rascist -Arab people are not intrinsically bad but what happens in chop chop square in RSA is abhorrent to nearly everyone here. If you were raised in that country you would almost certainly think it was justice. be careful when you adopt cultural relativism I'll say it again the EU is not working for the average British person. Lol - and then we were persuaded by an allegedly racist clown to heap the blame for our self-inflicted ills on the EU and vote for Brexit. We're likely to pay an enormous price for that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, pig said: Lol - and then we were persuaded by an allegedly racist clown to heap the blame for our self-inflicted ills on the EU and vote for Brexit. We're likely to pay an enormous price for that too. Tony Benn's not a racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 7 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: I do love the metrics thoughItaly top trumps.Active Military Personnel: 320,000Total Tanks: 586Total Aircraft: 785Total Naval Strength: 179Aircraft Carriers: 2Uk top trumps.Active frontline personnel: 146,980Total Tanks: 407Total Aircraft: 879Total Naval Strength: 76Aircraft Carriers: 0 But they're worse than us. No idea why, more troops, more tanks, more ships, more carriers.... Not knocking the Italians who are the most friendly welcoming people, and lead the world in many creative areas such as food, drink, engineering and fashion, which is a good thing. Of course history shows that they haven't really liked fighting wars, Roman Empire excluded. In WW2 whilst aligned with Germany it was widely recognised that Italian troops weren't really up for combat and would surrender readily. They also weren't really up for Hitler's social cleansing programme. Pre-war they'd had many senior Jewish Politicians, including a Prime Minister in 1910 Luigi Luzzatti. There was a strand within the Fascist Party that did support anti-semitism and they did pass racial laws in 1938 under pressure from these factions, but they didn't implement any concentration camps until September 1943 when the Allies had started invading, and the Germans were counter invading from the north. Most of those sent to these camps actually escaped, and according to Wikipedia around 80% of Italy's Jewish population survived the war. Broadly speaking I'd say the Italians simply love life, enjoy socialising and doing wonderful creative things. They are not a country for causing needless destruction through ideology, even if sometimes their politicians cause a few issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 More insights into the techniques for success employed by the German car industry.. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/24/vw-calls-crisis-meeting-to-discuss-eu-cartel-inquiry-source-says?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 54 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: We think we are superior? FILL Because we are an island - or Protestant or have common law or had the industrial revolution first ... etc there is more to the U.K. Than the fact it is an island. such differences should be celebrated not sneered at. FLUFF Nationalistic drivel I'll say it again the EU is not working for the average British person. You've, literally, just said you're not racist, and then gone the full kipper on us. 22 minutes ago, pig said: Lol - and then we were persuaded by an allegedly racist clown to heap the blame for our self-inflicted ills on the EU and vote for Brexit. We're likely to pay an enormous price for that too. I know. 13 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Tony Benn's not a racist. Was he alive last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Just now, HairyOb1 said: Was he alive last year? No. personally his views were what persuaded me to vote leave. I can't speak for others, but perhaps the YouTube hits for his speeches suggest he still has a voice that is listened to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 23 minutes ago, pig said: Lol - and then we were persuaded by an allegedly racist clown to heap the blame for our self-inflicted ills on the EU and vote for Brexit. We're likely to pay an enormous price for that too. Indeed. Attacking the EU has be a masterbatory cause for a number of right wing politicians who can't but help whip themselves up into a swivel-eyed creamy lather at even the thought of being able to criticise Brussels. What is now clear is that this bunch of Thomas the Tankers don't have a Scooby about what to do. Eventually someone is going to have to clean up after this Brexit Based Bukaki Party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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