Xenophobes Carry On Lying About Immigrants.

[#scoobydoo#]

So in fact the original poster was right and much of the UK's wealth is from mineral resources not the hard work of the average man on the street... as he's actually in the public sector!

You still do not get it, it takes graft, it takes education (red brick universities) it takes a myriad of spin off industries to get the black stuff out of the ground. Yes it may have given the UK a small economic advantage over a small number of resource poor countries. But we all know that the UK is now merely a country largely based on financial services such as banking, insurance, stock trading and all the ancillary companies that go along to support them.

#scoobydoo#

Edited August 23, 2006 by #scoobydoo#

[apom]

I choose not to believe in anything anyone tells me.

Immigration leading to jobless?

i doubt if overall this can be said objectivly, but subjectivly there are going to be many people out there who have lost work to people prepared to work in their job cheaper, its called market forces...

Is it nice for those affected? no.

Are immigrants vital to our economy?

Yes, of course, with professional people for the most part now unable to afford to have children we will need immigrants to fill these job spaces..

Are immigrants a bad thing?

No.

But here is an analogy

my beer glass is half empty, this is not enough beer and I am sad I cry, perhaps a little...

1: A man walks up with a half pint glass of beer and fills the glass up, this is great.. I am happy and I cry no more..

2: A man walks up and empties a bucket into my half full glass of beer.. the glass floods and overspills, drenching my trousers and the table, the orriginal glass falls over and all the beer is wasted, and my underpants are wet.

Now, option one is clearly very cool.

but this is a critical part of the point.

Option two is rubbish and that is obvious to all everywhere, a good thing becoming an unsustainable mess for there can be too much of a good thing becoming a bad thing..

In the pub situation I would complain to the bucket wielding idiot and be at least safe in the knowledge that he would be unable to call me a racist for pointing out the obvious.

[sun n sea]

Couldn't the term Chav be looked at to some extent as racist? Isn't it just a derogatory word that even the left, oh so liberal folks, use to discribe poor White working class British people?

It's not OK to say anything negative about immigrants but it's fine to lay into poor White working class natives- a bit hypocritical don't you think.

[Cuckoo]

You aren't a left winger at all are you! Public servant by any chance?

honestly that last post (not the one above , the one by the reasonable , non racist person, was the first bit of sense written on here for ages.

Seems that this website is more full of cranks and racists blaming immigrants for house prices than anyone with half a brain. Shocking.

[Cuckoo]

I can't spend all my time pulling the post apart cause I've other things to do.

But no one on this thread has made a racist comment as such (although I may have missed it?).

It is concerns whether you like those concerns or not.

The concerns are based on warped logic and racism. There is plenty of room in this country for 5 million more immigrants.

[Realistbear]

The concerns are based on warped logic and racism. There is plenty of room in this country for 5 million more immigrants.

Do you own a property? Do you own BTLs?

Or are you a FTB hoping one day to buy a house?

[Guest mattsta1964]

I can't spend all my time pulling the post apart cause I've other things to do.

But no one on this thread has made a racist comment as such (although I may have missed it?).

It is concerns whether you like those concerns or not.

The REAL FASCISTS on this forum are the museli chewing fekkwits who wont allow ANYONE to have a debate about immigration without making accusations of rascism.

[Guest AuntJess]

And that IS the problem isn't it?

When those which care, are psychologically and proud to be British go, what are you left with?

I have already made enquiries to leave the Uk (hopefully) no later than 2008.

I do not want my young son being brought up in another potential Balkans.

I don't blame you for looking to the future of your children. It also raises another question in my mind: If Tony Blair is this all-embracing, I-love-the-whole-world-and-I-want-it-to-come-and-live-with-me, person, why do we hear of his planning to live abroad.?

Doesn't he want to lve in the Utopia he and his cohorts are creating? He and his Marxist wife will be heading for a life of luxury somewhere, ne'er'ee a doubt.

[TheJudge]

Finally after 8 pages we get a decent argument which states the case for possibly limiting immigration.

The rough jist of what (I think) apom was saying is - immigration can be and often is a good thing, but sometimes you can have too much of a good thing all at once and it might cause problems.

Sounds pretty sensible to me. The big question is are current levels of immigration too high?

I think the answer to this partly depends on whether you believe that in the long term it is better to be part of a European Union which allows free movement of goods, services and labour. There are some things I definitely don't like about the European Union e.g. stupid legislation, and I definitely do not want us to join the Euro and cede control to the European Central Bank. But I can see that free trade and labour movement may in the longer term enhance our prosperity (as they have done in the past).

I actually think the arguments for and against limiting immigration are finely balanced. And no I don't think it is racist to discuss it. However I do think that some (note I said some, not all) of the anti-immigration posts on here are racist and/or unbalanced. Along the lines of "I like to moan about everything, and I think I will blame it all on immigration", or some loon rambling on about pedigree.

For my opinions on multiculturalism please see page 3. The jist of this is that anyone who thinks multiculturalism is some modern lefty invention knows absolutely jack shit about the history of this country.

Edited to add:

Yes definitely keep paeodophiles, rapists etc out. And even better also keep our own dangerous criminals locked up as well.

Edited August 23, 2006 by TheJudge

[laurejon]

Many nations are complaining today that during the days of the empire they were exploited for cheap labour.

Surely 1.4million people who legally came to the UK to work for low wages over the past two years could also level the same claim in the future.

Nothing will ever change my mind, for so long as we have a single person in the UK who is able bodied, and yet unemployed, then we do not need immigrants.

And if we as a nation invested in the education of our children instead of pandering to socialist political liberal correctness, and offered our children the same advantages in education our prime minister gives to his own children above everyone else, then again we would have all the skills we need.

The Labour Party have installed themselves in the UK to lower standards and to further their cause of a united Socialist European Community, that eventually extends across the Soviet Block.

We need to stop these evil b*stards at the next election before its way too late.

The Tories are unfortunately the only real alternative, bring it on!!!.

[Garry AKA Pod]

As someone that might be classed as swinging slightly right of centre - I have to ask how many of you are struggling, or have struggled to find an NHS dentist? Those dentists born and bred in the UK have nearly all gone private and thankfully, lots of very good Poles are coming over to fill the holes in the NHS. Areas particularly affected by lack of NHS dentists are poorer areas, so in a twist of irony, the immigrants are actually helping the natives.

Have to mention that as I too have been swayed too much by al this immigration talk. I agree there needs to be realisitic limits, but by no means stop the hard working people that we NEED from coming over.

---------------------------------------------------------

Christ, I'm looking at things from both sides. Quick pass me a beer befoe it becomes a habit.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Jimothy

[laurejon]

And who is pulling the strings making NHS dentists go private.

Yes, its the Labour Government who are constantly cutting the service to the bone.

Pay dentists a proper wage and they wont have to go private, but of course for so long as they all go private that saves the Labour Gov money, money they can spend on themselves playing Croquet, and sunning themselves overseas courtesy of their paymasters.

[Garry AKA Pod]

And who is pulling the strings making NHS dentists go private.

Yes, its the Labour Government who are constantly cutting the service to the bone.

Pay dentists a proper wage and they wont have to go private, but of course for so long as they all go private that saves the Labour Gov money, money they can spend on themselves playing Croquet, and sunning themselves overseas courtesy of their paymasters.

They aren't being forced to go private. They are swayed by £££££££ signs. I don't blame them either. However, that isn't the fault of Mr Kowalski!

[whiterabbit]

As someone that might be classed as swinging slightly right of centre - I have to ask how many of you are struggling, or have struggled to find an NHS dentist? Those dentists born and bred in the UK have nearly all gone private and thankfully, lots of very good Poles are coming over to fill the holes in the NHS. Areas particularly affected by lack of NHS dentists are poorer areas, so in a twist of irony, the immigrants are actually helping the natives.

Have to mention that as I too have been swayed too much by al this immigration talk. I agree there needs to be realisitic limits, but by no means stop the hard working people that we NEED from coming over.

---------------------------------------------------------

Christ, I'm looking at things from both sides. Quick pass me a beer befoe it becomes a habit.

Personally I think the quality of NHS dentist work is absolute crap and only worthwhile in a dire emergency. This may be because all the good dentists have gone private? Not sure I would want an immigrant dentist working on my teeth as their standards/quality may be way less than mine. Rather than struggling to find an NHS dentist I would go private. You get what you pay for these days in dentistry like schooling etc.

[Garry AKA Pod]

Personally I think the quality of NHS dentist work is absolute crap and only worthwhile in a dire emergency. This may be because all the good dentists have gone private? Not sure I would want an immigrant dentist working on my teeth as their standards/quality may be way less than mine. Rather than struggling to find an NHS dentist I would go private. You get what you pay for these days in dentistry like schooling etc.

How many HNS dentists have you experienced to make that claim?

[iamnumerate]

The concerns are based on warped logic and racism. There is plenty of room in this country for 5 million more immigrants.

Where ? How many of these will live in London ? For the borough of your choice show where they can live.

Although you might find people on those board will take the empty houses that you mention.

[whiterabbit]

How many HNS dentists have you experienced to make that claim?

Well my company has now bought private dental insurance as all 3000 people felt it was that bad if available at all ...................

I finally went to an NHS dentist 3 years ago to have a tooth removed they screwed it up and I had to go private. The private dentist said it was the worst work they have every seem.

Wife went to a different local one 6 months pregnant yet they refused to let her wear a vest to protect from radiation when taking xrays.

My dad just had work done and again had to go private to have the work redone.

Try comparing a cleaning at a private dentist to an NHS one. Try going into both and then look at the recomendations they both make. Try asking a decent dentist what they think.

As I stated before they are OK for urgent work but not for long term preventative work or quality work. If you have gum disease or similar they don't have a clue. These days they are looking to do the least work the cheapest and quickest, code it right to claim the most money back from the NHS to get you out the door. This includes employing sub standard dentists and hygenists......................

[whiterabbit]

The concerns are based on warped logic and racism. There is plenty of room in this country for 5 million more immigrants.

Cuckoo,

Agreed we need lots more immigrants in my area of London for sure. They will free up housing by showing us lazy Brits we dont need all this space and can happily live 5 to a room. The tube and roads have plenty of space for extra capacity, the police have nothing at all to do and need more crime to solve, teachers need more kids entering their classes that don't speak english to raise the grades. The money the local benefits systems are awash with can finally be spent on a good cause. Inquisitive docters are also eagerly anticipating the oportunity to learn about 3rd world diseases, ritual killings/witchcraft and homeowners and local women are excited to see how mugging and sexual harrasment techniques differ between different enriching immigrant comunites.

[laurejon]

May 01, 2006

Dentistry in Crisis

The new NHS dental contract is unfair to dentists, a bad deal for patients, and more focussed on bringing dentists under government control than actually providing a better service to the nation.

Contrary to what Rosie Winterton, Minister for Health, would have you believe, NHS dentistry in this country is facing a serious crisis with the imposition of a new contract that has had dentists across the country up in arms.

10% of dentists have refused to sign altogether, and though Ms Winterton believes this to be an acceptable margin, it has left over a million people stranded without the dental treatment that they need. What is even more worrying is that 60% of dentists have signed “in dispute” and may still pull out of the contract at a later date.

So why has this contract caused so much upset?

Previously, dentists were paid by item of service. There were over 400 different treatments available on the NHS, and every dentist in the country got paid the same amount of money for doing the same amount of work. While Acting chief dental officer Barry Cockcroft calls this method of working “outdated,” it was at least understandable and provided value for money for patients, even if the actual payments the dentists received were low enough for them to feel overworked and underpaid. The system basically worked, and, with a little tweaking, should have provided the best care for patients and the best working conditions for dentists.

However, instead of making minor adjustments to the old system – such as making the most expensive and non–essential treatments unavailable on the NHS and slightly altering the costs of others – what the government has done is overhauled the entire system and replaced it with an untried, target based one, which will cost the patient double, and in some cases triple what they were paying before, ensure that dentists are still overworked, replacing an old treadmill with a new one, but prove much better for the government because not only is it cheaper for them, it brings another section of the NHS firmly under their heel.

The government has said repeatedly that this new scheme has been piloted with success. This is an outright lie. It has not been tested at all. There have been schemes piloting a completely different system (PDS schemes) – and a much better one at that, which both dentists and patients were happy with – but this is not the one that has been adopted by the government, as it proved too expensive for their liking.

We have seen how the target based approach has done very little to improve the education system, with teachers now so wrapped up in red tape that they have barely enough time to teach, and children are examined to within an inch of their lives, and now Blair’s government seems set on a similar destruction of dental health provision in Britain. Dentists’ earnings will now be calculated using a system of UDAs, or Units of Dental Activity. Dentists will have to perform a certain number of UDAs per month in order to get their allocation of the money the government has provided to local Primary Care Trusts. However, the amount paid to dentists per UDA varies not only from region to region, but from dentist to dentist within that region. So firstly, this system is unfair because dentists across the country will be paid different amounts for exactly the same amount of work.

Secondly, this quota system is unfair on patients, because of what constitutes a UDA. A patient requiring 1 filling now pays exactly the same as one with 8 fillings, 2 extractions and 3 root–fillings, because they both count as the same number of UDAs. Patients who have looked after their teeth will effectively be penalised for it, by being made to subsidize those who haven’t. However, those people who do need a lot of dental work will also be penalised, because they will find it very difficult to find a dentist willing to treat them. If the same UDAs are being earned for several time–consuming, difficult procedures as for one simple one, few dentists are going to be willing to choose the former over the latter when they have a quota to fill, and are already working a thirteen hour day in order to meet targets. If a dentist extracts a tooth that could have been treated with an hour–and–a– half root filling, he will earn the same UDAs and save considerable time. Perhaps this choice seems to reflect badly on the dentist, but according to the Shadow Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, for many dentists their main problem with the new contract is that their UDA target is far too high. They are being expected to work harder than they did last year, rather than having their workload cut by 5% as the government promised, in order to earn exactly the same money, and since most NHS dentists were overworked and under paid last year, Blair’s new scheme has just exacerbated the problem it was trying to solve. Dentists are still overworked, only now they are being forced to cut corners if they want to gather enough UDAs to get paid. This target driven system can only lead to a reduction in quality of care

The way the new system is being priced is also grossly unfair. Now, instead of 400 different treatments with their own individually calculated price, there are only three price bands, again based on number of UDAs. 1 UDA, the equivalent of a check–up will cost £15.50, 3 UDAs, which can cover anything between one filling and ten, will cost £42.40, and any more complex treatment which involves a lab technician and laboratory fees such as crowns or bridges will cost £189, and count for 12 UDAs. This may seem relatively simple, but this actually means that 69% of patients will be paying more for treatment, and on average costs will double. As already stated, this system also penalises patients with low treatment requirements, and the British Dental Association is concerned that this will therefore discourage people from regular visits to the dentist. Once patients realise that it costs the same to get one tooth filled as three, there’s an incentive to delay treatment to get value for money. If basic emergency treatment is £15.50, then it works out as cheaper to wait until a tooth is causing pain and needs filling than to make a routine appointment for the same filling which will cost £42.40: more than double.

One of the main aims of the new contract was to allow dentists more time to focus on preventative dentistry, but yet again it has failed spectacularly, and only served to make the problem worse. A patient now has to pay nearly triple what they used to for a dental check–up: £15.50, rather than £5.80. Many dentists believe this increased cost is going to act as a disincentive for patients, and hardly surprising, since the point of having a National Health Service is to make medical care affordable for all, never mind “free at the point of contact”. Under this new system it is the people in society most dependant on NHS provision who will be the most disadvantaged: the young, the elderly and those on a low income. Also, dentists now have no incentive to talk to patients about dental care, or to visit schools to educate pupils, because these activities have no UDA value, which in the long run can only be a bad thing, and will lead to more people needing dental care.

Despite all of this, the Government has been trying to con us into thinking this is a good deal for all concerned, instead of just for them. It has been asserted by Rosie Winterton and others that “an independent dentist with an average NHS workload can earn about £80K a year plus expenses,” and since the amount that dentists are being paid per UDA has been calculated on their earnings for the last year (which accounts for different dentists being paid different amounts per UDA) the government is now trying to persuade everyone that dentists will still be earning this amount under the new contract. This is absolute nonsense from beginning to end. If the new contract was really offering dentists salaries of £80K plus expenses, they would be mad not to accept it. Government figures themselves contradict this assertion, reports suggesting that average earnings for NHS dentists are closer to £65K. One has to wonder where Ms Winterton is getting her figures from, if it’s not her own imagination.

Apart from the deficiencies this contract will lead to in patient care, the government seems also to be underhandedly trying to gain an element of control over dentists in this country that is worryingly despotic. What all these reforms mean is that the government will be imposing a salary on NHS dentists, making them more dependant on government handouts, like NHS doctors, rather than allowing them to work in the more independent way that they are used to. Not only is this an unwanted imposition on the freedoms of dentists, but in the long run this will be damaging to the growth of NHS dental practices. What the government doesn’t seem to realise is that unlike doctors, dentists receive no financial assistance with setting up or running their practices. Everything comes from the dentist's own pocket; some own their own premises, there are no notional rent arrangements, no 80% contribution to staff salaries, no funding towards expensive equipment, nothing. And so for the government to try and dictate how a dentist runs his or her practice – towards which they have contributed not one penny – is, I find, somewhat unreasonable. The government is essentially a sub–contractor, and in any other business it would be impossible to find another sub–contractor who would dream of having the control over their contractors that the government wishes to gain over the dentists. Besides which, under the terms of this new contract, dentists will be unable to fund improvements to their practice without government funding, which has not even been suggested. They cannot increase their income by taking on more work for a month or so, as used to be the case, in order to fund the purchase of new equipment, for example, as they will not be paid any extra money if they exceed their UDA quota for the month. This means that the growth of individual practices will be stunted, and in time NHS dentistry will be unable to keep up with new developments in the industry.

The Government has systematically said publicly that they have been "negotiating" with the British Dental Association, the body representing dentists in the UK, but in fact, the truth is far from that. There were no negotiations. The BDA was summoned to meetings at the Department only to be told that new arrangements would be brought forward irrespective of any objections. Despite the BDA repeatedly telling Departmental officials that the proposals would be unworkable, they were unable to change anything but the most minor details. This, unsurprisingly culminated in a BDA walk–out of these "negotiations" last December. In short, although there have been some meetings since regarding minor issues, the BDA have been unable to influence policy one iota. I don’t think anyone who knew the meaning of the term could seriously call this “negotiation”.

Perhaps the most underhand issue about the whole business is the way that the government has rushed this new NHS contract through. The timescale for its implementation was ridiculous. Dentists were only given the new contracts eight days before the deadline for signing them, and some were given even less time, and were therefore not given enough time to seek legal consultation, or really think the new contract and its implications through before they had to make a decision. They were asked to make a decision that affected their entire livelihood in just over a week. They were put under enormous pressure to meet that deadline, or they would be unable to treat NHS patients, and since there is still a large number of dentists who want to be able to offer patients NHS care, despite the benefits of going private, many of them have signed the contract under protest. After looking at the contract in more detail, and seeing the shoddy deal it proposes, it’s a wonder any of them have signed at all.

[Wuluf]

Cuckoo,

Agreed we need lots more immigrants in my area of London for sure. They will free up housing by showing us lazy Brits we dont need all this space and can happily live 5 to a room. The tube and roads have plenty of space for extra capacity, the police have nothing at all to do and need more crime to solve, teachers need more kids entering their classes that don't speak english to raise the grades. The money the local benefits systems are awash with can finally be spent on a good cause. Inquisitive docters are also eagerly anticipating the oportunity to learn about 3rd world diseases, ritual killings/witchcraft and homeowners and local women are excited to see how mugging and sexual harrasment techniques differ between different enriching immigrant comunites.

You forgot about the ch*ld molesters, rampant S*Ds, teenage pregnancies, illiteracy, ignorance, hypocrisy, violence, binge drinking, low standards, endemic exploitation, class wars, lager louts, hooligans, theft, larceny… Oh wait a minute…!!!

Bunch of uneducated chimps..

The day the internet was gifted to the masses was a sad day indeed.. Ditto this site.. RIP

Edited August 23, 2006 by Wuluf

[Garry AKA Pod]

The issue wasn't about why the aren't any NHS dentists, it was about how the Poles are filling VACANCIES!

Try going to a poor area and telling them all to go private instead.

[patprimer74]

Been away for 24 hours. Glad to see you boys have kept this topic right at the top of the list. That was your intention, I'm sure, to keep the title "Xenophobes Carry On Lying About Immigrants." right up there for everyone to see! You're sooooo bright!!

I think I'll start another topic to wind up the Loony Right.

p

[Xurbia]

Been away for 24 hours. Glad to see you boys have kept this topic right at the top of the list. That was your intention, I'm sure, to keep the title "Xenophobes Carry On Lying About Immigrants." right up there for everyone to see! You're sooooo bright!!

I think I'll start another topic to wind up the Loony Right.

p

Have you been away to Labour HQ and been taking up the shi**er from one of your Members?

Edited August 23, 2006 by Xurbia

[laurejon]

Why do the Labour Party carry on Lying about Immigrants?.

That is the real question, why are they continually lying about the numbers they have let in?.

The labour party cannot be trusted any longer to manage immigration, they should resign from office and call an election.

[KingCash]

The ignorance on the issue of why we 'need' immigrants makes my blood boil. I've just watched Digby Jones claim that British people "have decided not to do those kinds of jobs" (the sort that immigrants do). HAS HE EVER HEARD OF THE BENEFITS TRAP? :angry:

And then a resturant owner in Cambridge said he "didn't know" why only 1 in ten applicants for a part time job were British. HAS HE EVER HEARD OF THE BENEFITS TRAP? :angry:

I've quoted myself from the first page of this thread. I expected my point about the benefits system to be taken up because it is the real reason for the "need" for immigrants. British people on benefits can not do part time or temporary work because the benefits system will make them worse off.

Simple. There is simply no need for half a million poles to come over to do donkey work that any no-brained idiot can do.

Edited August 23, 2006 by KingCash