14stFlyer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 16 hours ago, Stewy said: EVs are a has-Bean.. XX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 22 hours ago, clarkey said: Electronic and electrical engineering here too, while I admire the technology the infrastructure is not in place and it’s never going to be practical enough for most people. However while he may have a degree in it , he’s been a media luvvie for most of his career so I’d take what he says with a pinch of salt Very much my view too. To run a vehicle requires a certain amount of stored energy, if not enough is in the vehicle then it needs delivering. Combustible fuels are efficient in terms of energy delivery, whilst doing it via electricity requires a lot of new infrastructure and the delivery itself is slow. I have a colleague with an EV and if travelling to meetings they seem to spend a good chunk of time waiting at motorway services. A lot of charge points in remote places also run off diesel. It's going to cost £300 B or more to upgrade the power grid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 8 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Very much my view too. To run a vehicle requires a certain amount of stored energy, if not enough is in the vehicle then it needs delivering. Combustible fuels are efficient in terms of energy delivery, whilst doing it via electricity requires a lot of new infrastructure and the delivery itself is slow. I have a colleague with an EV and if travelling to meetings they seem to spend a good chunk of time waiting at motorway services. A lot of charge points in remote places also run off diesel. It's going to cost £300 B or more to upgrade the power grid. Do charging points in remote places run off diesel generators rather than the electricity grid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 13 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said: Lol. That's funny. However, I do think you are trolling. But I will bite. If they are so good why are they not selling? Are you able to counter any of my points, then? As I conceded, the battery tech presently lets the side down, and I'll add that the infrastructure does need to keep pace. But both of these factors are constantly improving, and while EVs are not for all usage cases at the moment, they will be one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Do charging points in remote places run off diesel generators rather than the electricity grid? Definitely some! Though sometimes called vegetable oil: https://fullfact.org/online/diesel-generators-electric-car-chargers/ Edited February 8 by Mikhail Liebenstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 07/02/2024 at 07:52, bumble bee said: Rowan Atkinson has been blamed for poor sales of electric cars in a report by the House of Lords. The Lords’ environment and climate change committee was told that the actor, 69, was partly at fault for “damaging” public perceptions of electric vehicles (EVs). “One of the most damaging articles was a comment piece written by Rowan Atkinson in the Guardian which has been roundly debunked,” the Green Alliance pressure group told peers. Atkinson, who has degrees in electrical engineering and control systems, described EVs in a June 2023 opinion article as “a bit soulless” but “wonderful mechanisms”. He wrote: “But increasingly, I feel a little duped … I’m feeling that our honeymoon with electric cars is coming to an end, and that’s no bad thing.” His article prompted a backlash from EV advocates, who accused him of misrepresenting the current state of battery technology. https://uk.yahoo.com/news/rowan-atkinson-blamed-poor-electric-173922428.html What the **** It's like claiming a poster on a share discussion board can move the market or someone posting here can crash the housing market....ludicrous.... I had actually read that article then promptly forgotten it....I have many reasons I donlt go for EV's and basically the more i learn about them and the ownership experience...the less they interest me.... I don't do major mileage these days so not worth it for me...if i suddenly had to do significant mileage I'd choose an ICE car end of story.... My current car was my project car it's 32 years old built in the 90's but really an 80's car ...it's in the GTI league and can embarass many a modern car....i realised with the low miles i just didnt need an expensive new ICE or EV so no more lease cars etc.....for long runs it's still more than capable and i don;t get range anxiety unlike the EV crowd.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 49 minutes ago, staintunerider said: What the **** It's like claiming a poster on a share discussion board can move the market or someone posting here can crash the housing market....ludicrous.... I had actually read that article then promptly forgotten it....I have many reasons I donlt go for EV's and basically the more i learn about them and the ownership experience...the less they interest me.... I don't do major mileage these days so not worth it for me...if i suddenly had to do significant mileage I'd choose an ICE car end of story.... My current car was my project car it's 32 years old built in the 90's but really an 80's car ...it's in the GTI league and can embarass many a modern car....i realised with the low miles i just didnt need an expensive new ICE or EV so no more lease cars etc.....for long runs it's still more than capable and i don;t get range anxiety unlike the EV crowd.... What do you count as 'major mileage'? If you only do short distances, presumably urban, then EVs are ideal. Instead of an expensive new one, maybe get a cheap used one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said: Do charging points in remote places run off diesel generators rather than the electricity grid? Diesel electricity generation is one of the most expensive, so I very much doubt it. Solar or wind is now much cheaper than diesel generation. See below. Big mining. Into cost saving, not green washing - https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2023/rio-tinto-approves-new-solar-farm-and-battery-storage-to-power-its-amrun-bauxite-operations-on-cape-york Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angry Capitalist Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, btd1981 said: Are you able to counter any of my points, then? As I conceded, the battery tech presently lets the side down, and I'll add that the infrastructure does need to keep pace. But both of these factors are constantly improving, and while EVs are not for all usage cases at the moment, they will be one day. 1) technically complex 2) high maintenance 3) lower lifetime reliability of entire system 4) inefficient 5) polluting where used 6) will never ever be truly sustainable 7) dependent upon fuel from dodgy regimes 8) noisy 9) lower performance 1 - EV batteries are not simple to make. Neither are electric motors. Go get a quote for an electric motor replacement for your EV if one malfunctions. Also, what if you get in a collision? A mild one results in many getting written off due to the complexity and cost to repair due to how they are designed. 2 - Not for my ICE. Oil changes every 5000 miles and general wear and tear. Sure, brake pads and discs will last longer in an EV if you use regenerative braking. But how long will the tyres last? EVs are heavier than ICE cars and put excessive wear on the tyres. Have also seen many reports of EV owners having their vehicles at the dealers constantly due to software issues. Trouble free motoring they are not. 3 - Depends on the manufacturer. If you buy a well made ICE they will last longer. Let's wait and see how long these EV batteries last without serious degradation. 4 - How is scrapping an EV after a mild collision efficient? What about the weight of EVs? 5 - Do you know what resources are dug out of the ground to make EV batteries? 6 - They will be sustainable as long as there is enough oil. A proven technology that has lasted well over 100 years. 7 - EVs are dependent on resources from dodgy mines in dodgy countries run by some very dodgy characters. They are also dependent on subsidies and tax breaks. Tesla has received much revenue from carbon credits and there is likely to be lawsuits against them on this matter as they were based on fraudulent figures. 8 - Okay. EVs are quiet. Will give you that one. 9 - Yes. Instant torque makes high end EVs a nice toy. I have no problem with this. But that does not make them suitable for mass adoption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 18 minutes ago, The Angry Capitalist said: 7 - EVs are dependent on resources from dodgy mines in dodgy countries run by some very dodgy characters. They are also dependent on subsidies and tax breaks. Tesla has received much revenue from carbon credits and there is likely to be lawsuits against them on this matter as they were based on fraudulent figures. Completely different scale. Some batteries may have a few kgs of 'dodgy' cobalt in them, but if you get an ICE car, you're basically signing up to buying thousands of kgs of oil from Saudi over the life the car. You might as well set up a direct debit to Saudi's Wahabbi mosque building fund. Far better to put the money into British generated electricity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angry Capitalist Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 3 minutes ago, Ballyk said: Completely different scale. Some batteries may have a few kgs of 'dodgy' cobalt in them, but if you get an ICE car, you're basically signing up to buying thousands of kgs of oil from Saudi over the life the car. You might as well set up a direct debit to Saudi's Wahabbi mosque building fund. Far better to put the money into British generated electricity. Lol. I have no problem with the Saudis (or any other country) getting wealthy from my reliance on oil. British generated electricity? Lol. Like EDF which is a French company. Scottish Power is Spanish owned lol. What about E.ON Next? Yep. German owned lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 7 minutes ago, The Angry Capitalist said: Lol. I have no problem with the Saudis (or any other country) getting wealthy from my reliance on oil. British generated electricity? Lol. Like EDF which is a French company. Scottish Power is Spanish owned lol. What about E.ON Next? Yep. German owned lol. Whoever owns the electricity company, they are employing British workers and paying tax in the UK. You won't find too many Germans up electricity pylons or working in British power stations! Buy oil and you're supporting Saudi industry + society. Maybe that's what you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkey Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Very much my view too. To run a vehicle requires a certain amount of stored energy, if not enough is in the vehicle then it needs delivering. Combustible fuels are efficient in terms of energy delivery, whilst doing it via electricity requires a lot of new infrastructure and the delivery itself is slow. I have a colleague with an EV and if travelling to meetings they seem to spend a good chunk of time waiting at motorway services. A lot of charge points in remote places also run off diesel. It's going to cost £300 B or more to upgrade the power grid. I also think that claiming it to environmentally friendly is a bit like shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic. I.e. it takes x amount of energy to make plus the lithium batteries. We are still using electricity to run it provided by oil via power stations. May as well keep using petrol and diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 EV's are a fad. They are a way for priviledged 🔔🔚s to virtue signal how 'clever' and 'green' they are or a way to avoid tax. Take away the incentives and the 🔔🔚s would not be numerous enough to keep the EV market going as all the data shows one simple fact... private buyers are not buying ev's this is fact no matter how much butt hurt it causes the fanbois. Still hats off to the EV zealots they really do put a lot of effort into defending their beloved EV's no matter how many facts/realities get in the way lol 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 22 minutes ago, Jean-Luc said: EV's are a fad. A fad that government is mandating to be 100% of all car sales by 2035. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewy Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, Ballyk said: A fad that government is mandating to be 100% of all car sales by 2035. That'll go the same way as heat pumps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 07/02/2024 at 08:08, Mikhail Liebenstein said: I agree with him. I also have a degree covering electrical, electronic, control systems engineering and computing. Yes - but does not fit the narrative so you are a far right extremist or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero120 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/07/great-electric-car-lie-monstrous-deception-against-public/ https://archive.is/J19C3 Quote Some – speaking to a House of Lords committee – even singled out a nuanced article by Rowan Atkinson for having harmed their cause: the actor disclosed that he felt “duped” by electric vehicles, and questioned the claims made by advocates. There is nothing zealots loath more than an apostate. I wish it were true that a single opinion article could alter the purchasing decisions of millions, but the reality is more prosaic. Consumers are rational, and they aren’t buying electric cars because it doesn’t yet make sense. EVs are prohibitively expensive, their range too short and there aren’t enough charging points: newspaper reports and personal finance desks have done the public a great service by pointing all of this out in great detail. Edited February 8 by nero120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 58 minutes ago, clarkey said: We are still using electricity to run it provided by oil via power stations. Approximately zero UK electricity comes from oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 5 minutes ago, Sour Mash said: Yes - but does not fit the narrative so you are a far right extremist or something He's not an extremist, just uninformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 19 minutes ago, Ballyk said: He's not an extremist, just uninformed. The problem isn't the Rowan Atkinson article alone, but this constant anti-EV background noise almost certainly influenced by vested interests. I had a car fire just outside the house last year and all the neighbours asked me 'was it your electric car' over and over, I almost got a t-shirt made to answer. Turns out it was my petrol car, you know, the one which was full of highly volatile and flammable petrol in proximity to very hot surfaces, but you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 32 minutes ago, Ballyk said: Approximately zero UK electricity comes from oil. Do you even understand how pivotal oil is to everything we do in the modern World? Even assuming we could magically meet all our electricity needs right now without any fossil fuels being burned to get it, we'd still be screwed without them. Do you think the windmills, solar panels and nuclear power stations could be built without fossil fuels being consumed in large amounts somewhere along the chain, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, btd1981 said: What do you count as 'major mileage'? If you only do short distances, presumably urban, then EVs are ideal. Instead of an expensive new one, maybe get a cheap used one. Blimey, did you not read the part that my 1990's ICE vehicle does the job just fine thank you ? I don;t need an expensive car right now and if i have to jump in my car at a moments notice and drive to Liverpool from the South East I can do that as well.... My car is my transport and a hobby as well..... From what I'm reading used EV's are a bit of a bargain(over new) because there isn't a really good used market. That in itself is a major problem....Tesla have been dropping their prices and catching the big car companies out but they also devalue existing EV's All the incentives are for new EV's which in itself creates problems for a thriving used market to establish... Interestingly all those leasehold flat buyers who bought new with HTb etc and whatever incentives the builders threw in are going to get a major dose of reality as they cannot compete in the used market with the builders... Wolf Richter did a few things on this here's one...going to happen here if not happening already https://wolfstreet.com/2024/01/25/prices-of-new-houses-drop-to-2-year-low/ In a nutshellf the builders offer incentoves including low financing and other goodies....used home sellers cannot hence the market has split....used houses have yet to wake up to the new reality... All this stuff works in real estate or EV's or what have you... Edited February 8 by staintunerider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, Sour Mash said: Do you even understand how pivotal oil is to everything we do in the modern World? Even assuming we could magically meet all our electricity needs right now without any fossil fuels being burned to get it, we'd still be screwed without them. Do you think the windmills, solar panels and nuclear power stations could be built without fossil fuels being consumed in large amounts somewhere along the chain, for example. The Germans have a saying which fits perfectly quite often when folk just do not get it....it's basically "Plank in front of the head" Fits the" just stop oil perfectly" crowd.... The world would turn into a dystopian future of Armageddon proportions without oil as there is simply noting to fill the void right now....we'd be back in the dark ages with a world population that the dark ages could support.....not the current and growing 9 billion...it's so simple....how can they not get it ? Ein Brett vor dem Kopf haben Plank in front of their head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 3 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said: 8 - Okay. EVs are quiet. Will give you that one. 9 - Yes. Instant torque makes high end EVs a nice toy. I have no problem with this. But that does not make them suitable for mass adoption. On 8 I don;t like quiet ...I want to be able to hear the thing coming 9) I've been curious about this yes been in one re incredible instant torque..... Back in the day a lot of stuff like 3.0 litre capris ended up in ditches because the lemon behind the wheel couldnt handle the power and with rear wheel drive too much would put you in a ditch literally....a lot of cars ended up like this... Now i know modern cars have traction control etc etc...but no amount of driver aids can make up for someone giving it too much welly at the wrong time and tyre loses grip with the road, off you slide...maybe just not backwards like with a 3.o litre capri who's back end would do a 90 or even 180 degree turn on you.. I wonder how many EV owners get carried away....i'm really not sure because from what i have seen most Tesla drivers seem to cruise about....maybe the typical EV owner isn;t the hooligan type... The Tesla i was in was a low end Tesla and the torque was astounding...so i'm sure the full fat 100k or what have you is something else again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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