Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths gripping Britain is only tip of the iceberg:

[Goat]

18 minutes ago, nightowl said:

We are both in broad agreement that lockdowns/distancing can reduce the number of infections at any one time minimising the overload on medical care at that time - so everyone who might be benefit gets the chance. 

My point is the total number of infections in the long run is still much the same. Ie instead of two case today, it's one today & one tommorow...but still two cases overall situation.

Well yes, but it ensured that healthcare was available to those who needed it, and gave us time to develop the vaccines, those are two very valuable outcomes.

 

22 minutes ago, nightowl said:

As the number of people infected is much the same, the number dying won't escalate to 700k or whatever.

If the vaccines hadn't worked, I think that's what we would be looking at, we had roughly 12,000,000 cases and 130,000 deaths before the vaccine really became effective, apply that number to the population as a whole and 700,000 is what you get.

 

29 minutes ago, nightowl said:

The exit roadmap from measures in 2021 was painfully slow. Initially it was until the vulnerable could be vaccinated (not unreasonable). Then extended to include the non vulnerable. Then used as blackmail to coerce the 'hestitants'.  

The problem of course was lack of information, we didn't know how effective the vaccine would be in the real world, we didn't know what effect reopening the schools would have or the effect of each of the subsequent steps.

No responsible government could drop all the restrictions at once, for all they knew the vaccines might've turned out to be a dud, they needed time to gather information on the effect of the previous step before taking the next one, and I don't see how they could've done anything else.

I do remember at the time they were being accused of going too fast.

 

39 minutes ago, nightowl said:

The re-imposition in dec2021 for omicron was unnecessary.

In the end, that didn't happen.

[pandabear]

On 12/11/2022 at 21:30, pandabear said:

I believe Lovelock proposed the 23 hyposthesis, which can be summarised as "if you look at it, the number 23 appears more often than it should!".

Of course, you are looking for it, so it will.  The same happens with covid and the jabs. 

I believe there is a serious problem with them, but i will be happy, no delighted, to be proved wrong.  I held this view as they were developed, and still hold it now.  Sadly, at no point in these 2+ years has there been any evidence to convince that they are either safe or effective.  

I still do not know anyone who has died of, or with, covid.  Yet i have lost 3 friends within one week of receiving their jab.  Anecdotal i know, but very concerning from a personal perspective.

 

9 hours ago, Goat said:

And you've suddenly just remembered this after several months of posting other rubbish.

Right...................

Memory failing you Gout?

[nightowl]

2 hours ago, Goat said:

If the vaccines hadn't worked, I think that's what we would be looking at, we had roughly 12,000,000 cases and 130,000 deaths before the vaccine really became effective, apply that number to the population as a whole and 700,000 is what you get.

 

I personally doubt we would get 700k deaths as this used a high IFR and forgets so few infections didn't even get recorded early on

It is any interesting hypothetical issue of what might happen if the vaccines hadn't worked at all....🤔 

Could lockdown/distancing be maintained in years (maybe decades)?

Would omicron occur anyway and alleviate the worst of the deaths accidentally?

Would the Great Barrington plan be reluctantly accepted as a plan B?

Would the outcomes in a certain taboo Scandinavian country become a plan B ?

2 hours ago, Goat said:

I do remember at the time they were being accused of going too fast.

I do remember those voices and they mostly still had what the wanted though.

2 hours ago, Goat said:

In the end, that didn't happen.

Various measures were introduced with plans for more including a brief mention of forced vaccinations. How close more measures were we won't find out for years but Sunaks recollection was he persuaded the PM to limit it.

[Goat]

7 minutes ago, pandabear said:

Memory failing you Gout?

Didn't read it in the first place Pandabore.

On the subject of failing memory, you seem to have forgotten to answer the following:

9 hours ago, Goat said:

@pandabear

Any chance you could respond to this post, I'm not clear what more information you wanted.

[Pmax2020]

3 hours ago, nightowl said:

How people medically feel if they have covid is very subjective if the situation doesn't warrant medical intervention.  Feeling rough for a few days and feeling off for a few weeks more after is not unique to covid, it's just it wasn't comment worthy until 2020.  Even having a bog standard cold is more comment worthy these days as people are still sensitised to such things.

An individuals ability to compare covid to previous colds, flus or fevers is not subjective. People can easily recollect how they felt and how long they took to recover. 

Secondly, you’re continuing to tell me how my friends, family, colleagues and wife felt when they had covid. In years previous to 2020, I can count on one hand how often the people close to me were really unwell. Yet during 2020/2021 it was a continual stream of people I know reporting that they’d had covid, many of which felt terrible with it.

Literally every week or so my wife or a close friend would say “Guess who has covid?”, and we’d chat about how it had spread through they household, affecting some mildly but often another severely. 

This was in stark contrast to previous years where of all my close friends and family, none of us had caught a significant virus for many, many years. 
 

4 hours ago, nightowl said:

 

"You're effectively saying..." Is the same as the "what or saying is..." meme which I'm assuming you're aware of🙄  The degree of severity of covid distorted, not that it's a figment of imagination.

You’re being a drama queen. Read his post again and tell us how you’d like it phrased. It’s perfectly acceptable to ask someone if they are suggesting a point….

It’s very different to the Cathy Newman interview style of repeatedly interrupting someone with “So what you’re saying is”… without giving them a chance to reply…

[Goat]

31 minutes ago, nightowl said:

I personally doubt we would get 700k deaths as this used a high IFR and forgets so few infections didn't even get recorded early on

The best guess is 4m were infected in the first wave, there were 4.3m positive tests by the end of the second wave, we can probably double that to 9m, so all in probably about 13m or so infections with 130,000 deaths as a result.

130,000/13,000,000 = 1%, that's the real world IFR for the UK, apply that to the whole UK population and 700,000 deaths is what we would be looking at.

In fact, it could be worse.  My guess is that the infections were disproportionately in the working age and younger groups, with the older groups shielding and less likely to be infected.  If the oldies had been infected at the same rate as everyone else, we might have seen an even higher IFR.

 

31 minutes ago, nightowl said:

It is any interesting hypothetical issue of what might happen if the vaccines hadn't worked at all....🤔 

Could lockdown/distancing be maintained in years (maybe decades)?

Would omicron occur anyway and alleviate the worst of the deaths accidentally?

Would the Great Barrington plan be reluctantly accepted as a plan B?

Would the outcomes in a certain taboo Scandinavian country become a plan B ?

Probably restrictions of some sort in place through 2021 and 2022 until the virus burned its way through the whole population, varying in stringency depending upon just how bad the situation was, but probably accepting a much higher level of infection than we were willing to accept in 2020.

I imagine special Covid hospitals would have to be built and staffed by minimally trained nurses to allow the rest of the NHS to function.

"Worst vaccine ever"

 

31 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Various measures were introduced with plans for more including a brief mention of forced vaccinations. How close more measures were we won't find out for years but Sunaks recollection was he persuaded the PM to limit it.

AFAIK the only measure introduced was masks, do you know of any others that were actually implemented?

Edited February 17, 2023 by Goat

[nightowl]

32 minutes ago, Pmax2020 said:

It’s very different to the Cathy Newman interview style

It essentially the same- credit someone with something they didn't say to make your point more valid. Standard technique seen here too.

35 minutes ago, Pmax2020 said:

An individuals ability to compare covid to previous colds, flus or fevers is not subjective. People can easily recollect how they felt and how long they took to recover. 

In previous years people have discussed who had the "thing that's going around" that year, but never considered that thing was all over the country as it wasn't newsworthy so didn't think much beyond that.

19 minutes ago, Goat said:

AFAIK the only measure introduced was masks, do you know of any others that were actually implemented?

Work from home recommendation. Extension of venues requiring vax pass (maybe visitor limits too-cant remember). More threats that NHS workers were next for mandatory vaccines then maybe everyone. Threat of further measures which in its self results in voluntary footfall drops - so result is similar.

24 minutes ago, Goat said:

130,000/13,000,000 = 1%, that's the real world IFR for the UK, apply that to the whole UK population and 700,000 deaths is what we would be looking at.

The 1% IFR wasn't seen in minimal lockdown Sweden so I wouldn't use that as a number. 

[Goat]

1 hour ago, nightowl said:

Work from home recommendation. Extension of venues requiring vax pass (maybe visitor limits too-cant remember). More threats that NHS workers were next for mandatory vaccines then maybe everyone. Threat of further measures which in its self results in voluntary footfall drops - so result is similar.

Did the Covid pass ever become anything?  Was it ever enforced?

Everything else is a recommendation, which you are free to ignore if you wish, and remember we really didn't know what Omicron was at the time.

 

1 hour ago, nightowl said:

The 1% IFR wasn't seen in minimal lockdown Sweden so I wouldn't use that as a number. 

400,000 confirmed cases up to the end of 2020, probably double that in reality, 8,000 confirmed deaths, your maths might be different to mine, but I make 8,000/800,000 exactly 1%.

The prospect of 700,000 or more deaths in the UK was very real.

[Arpeggio]

22 hours ago, pandabear said:

Yet I had three friends die within a week of receiving their first jabs,  Heart attack, pericarditis and pneumonia.  I am sure in your happy land these people are still alive.

21 hours ago, Pmax2020 said:

No you didn’t.

and there we go.

Me last week: "I'm not doing personal anecdotes or appeals to emotion to end up in pointless circular arguments. If I did I would have made the above figures much closer to yours and you wouldn't believe them anyway. " (bottom of my post)

 

On 14/02/2023 at 23:28, Pmax2020 said:

I know people that caught covid, grown men that’ve worked physical jobs their entire lives - reduced to tears recollecting how covid floored them and that they felt as though there were dying.

A moment of silence for the old and vulnerable being thrown off the boat to save them in 2020.

 

On 16/02/2023 at 12:14, The Spaniard said:

Yes, indeed it does and thanks for pointing that out.  My apologies to the thread for posting that particular link.

FIFA was always known for being bent anyway. With regards to my original comment on Damar Hamlin;

It's What Bills Safety Damar Hamlin Didn't Say That's Got People Talking.

Maybe that’s the point of the ambiguity. To get people talking. Tiffany Dover with dick n' helmet.

 

On 15/02/2023 at 20:56, Goat said:

Good analogy, I like it, taking it further the problem you have is that you know precisely f*** all about wine, so you always end up buying the rankest, most overpriced bottle of cat p*** because it's got a jazzy label on it and comes in a fancy bottle.

It's a similar story with vaccines, you have zero information to start with, you lack the skills to properly acquire and evaluate information about them, and thus you end up buying whatever horse s*** is being pedalled so long as it conforms with whatever you choose to believe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2T81NY

Nobody was this rude to you off the bat when you were espousing the dangers of Covid19 with studies that use vaccinated people (and not mentioning that), while simultaneously promoting the vaccine.

 

On 16/02/2023 at 08:07, Rupert the Rubbish said:

The PCR tests can distinguish very easily between flu and covid. I am not sure where you get the information otherwise. This is my field, and while a biological assay in the field will always be a little messy the two are, on a molecular level, very distinct.

I am happy to explain this further if you are interested?

Go for it.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[Arpeggio]

On 14/02/2023 at 23:28, Pmax2020 said:

My mrs works in the NHS. The increase in ICU admissions were very real. The excess deaths were very real.

Why does data for Adult Critical care bed occupancy appear to be missing between 1st March 2020 & 8th Nov 2020? https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/uec-sitrep/

11 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

A moment of silence for the the old and vulnerable being thrown off the boat to save them in 2020.

Forgot to mention people with learning difficulties given Do Not Resuscitate orders.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[Goat]

14 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

A moment of silence for the the old and vulnerable being thrown off the boat to save them in 2020.

We've done this before.

Midazolam and morphine are administered to patients who are being put onto mechanical ventilators, at which point any depressing effect they have on the patient's breathing is irrelevant because the machine is doing that for them.

Thus, the spike in M&M usage was driven by the spike in patients who needed mechanical ventilation, and the spike in deaths was also caused by the spike in patients who needed mechanical ventilation.

As ever, correlation =/= causality.

[Arpeggio]

19 minutes ago, Goat said:

We've done this before.

Have you?

 

19 minutes ago, Goat said:

Midazolam and morphine are administered to patients who are being put onto mechanical ventilators...

In the clip, Dr. John is referring to end of life care (hence why I referred to your comment), and you are telling me something I already know. As usual you have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[Pmax2020]

1 hour ago, Arpeggio said:

and there we go.

 

You don’t believe him/her either. 

[Arpeggio]

1 minute ago, Pmax2020 said:

You don’t believe him/her either. 

Sorry, not playing your stupid game. Just explained that.

[Pmax2020]

3 hours ago, nightowl said:

In previous years people have discussed who had the "thing that's going around" that year, but never considered that thing was all over the country as it wasn't newsworthy so didn't think much beyond that.

You just csnt accept covid was different cant you? Maybe you have smaller social circles and the people you know got lucky. 

The classic “there’s a thing going about” is something I often hear a couple of times a year when describing someone has a bad cold. Not quite the same as watching a virus sweep through the households of everyone you know in the space of a year - taking lots of prisoners and setting some folk back months. 

[Pmax2020]

7 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

Sorry, not playing your stupid game. Just explained that.

It’s not a game; you categorically know that was a lie. 

[Goat]

41 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

Have you?

Page 70 of this thread.

 

43 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

In the clip, Dr. John is referring to end of life care (hence why I referred to your comment), and you are telling me something I already know.

Really?  Well, I've no way of knowing what you know, so I have to surmise your knowledge from the posts you make, with that in mind please allow me to make 3 points:

Firstly, even if you knew that the two drugs are used in the treatment of patients who require mechanical ventilation, many if not most of the posters on here are not aware of that fact, so I am perfectly entitled to correct the misleading impression your post gives.

Secondly, if you know that the two drugs are used in the treatment of patients who require mechanical ventilation, why are you claiming that the spike in their use was down to doctors "throwing their patients off the boat" when you must know that the true reason was the extraordinary demand for mechanical ventilation?

Thirdly, yes, M&M is ALSO used in end of life care (ELC), for the same reason it's used in patients being placed on ventilators, to relieve pain and anxiety, but it does not follow that the spike in its use was down to far more patients being placed in ELC, especially when a far more plausible explanation exists.

So, essentially, we have two competing hypotheses:

1. the spike in Midazolam use was down to a huge increase in patients requiring mechanical ventilation, or:
2. large numbers of doctors suddenly decided to take a s*** on the Hippocratic oath and "threw their patients off the boat".

Maybe we should start a poll to decide on that one.

 

59 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

As usual you have no idea what you are talking about.

Says the man who thinks half the doctors in the NHS suddenly morphed into Harold Shipman.

[anonguest]

18 minutes ago, Goat said:

Says the man who thinks half the doctors in the NHS suddenly morphed into Harold Shipman.

I've never understood why so many of the public have this quaint notion that because someone is a qualified doctor that they somehow take on saintly qualities.  Doctors are as human as the rest of us and prone to all the same emotions, prejudices and weaknesses as the rest of us.

Many nurses who did not necessarily support the Nazi regime still implemented its discriminatory and murderous policies through the course of their regular, daily work."

Roughly half of all German doctors became members of the Nazi Party and its organizations between 1933 and 1945. Some German physicians welcomed the Nazi regime because it supported their beliefs about “racial hygiene.” 

The Role of Doctors and Nurses | Holocaust Encyclopedia (ushmm.org)

The Covid pandemic was, and will for sure in due course be seen as, an episode of largely irrational hysteria. It is perfectly understandable that many medical professionals would also have adopted irrational stances in response to it.

Edited February 17, 2023 by anonguest

[Goat]

Just now, anonguest said:

I've never understood why so many of the public have this quaint notion that because someone is a qualified doctor that they somehow take on saintly qualities.  Doctors are as human as the rest of us and prone to all the same emotions, prejudices and weaknesses as the rest of us.

Many nurses who did not necessarily support the Nazi regime still implemented its discriminatory and murderous policies through the course of their regular, daily work."

Roughly half of all German doctors became members of the Nazi Party and its organizations between 1933 and 1945. Some German physicians welcomed the Nazi regime because it supported their beliefs about “racial hygiene.” 

The Role of Doctors and Nurses | Holocaust Encyclopedia (ushmm.org)

The Covid pandemic was, and will for sure in due course be seen as, an episode of largely irrational hysteria. It is perfectly understandable that many medical professionals would also have adopted irrational stances in response to it.

So you really do think that half the doctors in the NHS morphed into Harold Shipman, that's "speshial".

[anonguest]

3 minutes ago, Goat said:

So you really do think that half the doctors in the NHS morphed into Harold Shipman, that's "speshial".

 

No.  I'm saying that they are, in large numbers, quite capable to 'doing what they're told to do' and not questioning 'orders' (i.e. policy) - even if that policy is ultimately bad. I refer you to the specific quote about the compliance of the nurses in the Nazi regime era.

We've all read the stories by now of numerous doctors being disciplined/struck off for pushing back against the official narrative.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by anonguest

[Goat]

Just now, anonguest said:

 

No.  I'm saying that they are, in large numbers, quite capable to 'doing what they're told to do' and not questioning orders (i.e. policy) - even if that policy is ultimately bad.  I refer you to the specific quote about the compliance of the nurses in the Nazi regime era.

I really don't think that NHS management is going to machine gun their staff or send them to the Eastern front if they refuse to comply.

[anonguest]

12 minutes ago, Goat said:

I really don't think that NHS management is going to machine gun their staff or send them to the Eastern front if they refuse to comply.

Now you're just being flippantly juvenile - and you know it. You know exactly the point I'm making.

The NHS management don't have to that in this day age.  They just need to fire them from their jobs.  When you've got a £1/2 million mortgage, kids, etc.  Have spent a sizeable portion of your life building up the career and life you've got... then losing your job is pretty brutal.

And the rest of them largely unthinkingly went along with the narrative voluntarily because it seemed right to them - just like doctors once went along with prescribing lobotomies in large numbers because "the science was settled"!

Edited February 17, 2023 by anonguest

[Goat]

10 minutes ago, anonguest said:

Now you're just being flippantly juvenile - and you know it. You know exactly the point I'm making.

It's a serious point, you're comparing the NHS to Nazi Germany, I'd suggest that the comparison is not entirely valid.

 

10 minutes ago, anonguest said:

They don't have to that in this day age.  They just need to fire them from their jobs.  When you've got a £1/2 million mortgage, kids, etc.  Have spent a sizeable portion of your life building up the career and life you've got... then losing your job is pretty brutal.

You know they have a Union, right?  Try doing that, and you'll have the entire NHS workforce out on strike the next day.

And for that matter, what are the odds of some kind of order from above telling doctors to exterminate tens of thousands of their patients not making it onto the front page of the Guardian, BBC, Mirror, Times, Telegraph, and every other f***ing publication in the known universe within about 30 seconds of the order being sent out?

Edited February 17, 2023 by Goat

[Arpeggio]

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

Page 70 of this thread.

It looks like you are trying to twist things? I hope you aren't trying to twist things.

and yes I see page 70

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

Firstly, even if you knew that the two drugs are used in the treatment of patients who require mechanical ventilation, many if not most of the posters on here are not aware of that fact, so I am perfectly entitled to correct the misleading impression your post gives.

Yes, I know the drugs are used for patients who are put on ventilators. A post of mine that included this, and actually talks about ventilators, with references to studies ⬇️ was a month before your page 70 post (and I knew about it long before then).

 

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

many if not most of the posters on here are not aware of that fact, so I am perfectly entitled to correct the misleading impression your post gives.

Again, Pmax2020 said:

On 14/02/2023 at 23:28, Pmax2020 said:

I know people that caught covid, grown men that’ve worked physical jobs their entire lives - reduced to tears recollecting how covid floored them and that they felt as though there were dying.

Then I brought up your statement about old & vulnerable people being left to save the likes of the above in 2020, with some footage from Dr. John about how they go about this; end of life care.

What is the "misleading impression" you are talking about? Are you trying to say "end of life care" isn't really end of life care, because drugs are also used with ventilators?

 

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

Secondly, if you know that the two drugs are used in the treatment of patients who require mechanical ventilation, why are you claiming that the spike in their use was down to doctors "throwing their patients off the boat" when you must know that the true reason was the extraordinary demand for mechanical ventilation?

Again, this is actually a different claim & subject to what I said. As above. Throwing people off the boat was something to which you agreed.

 

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

Says the man who thinks half the doctors in the NHS suddenly morphed into Harold Shipman.

The only thing I recall of mentioning Shipman was this link:  Shipman was excellent doctor, say colleagues

On this post:

[anonguest]

26 minutes ago, Goat said:

It's a serious point, you're comparing the NHS to Nazi Germany, I'd suggest that the comparison is not entirely valid.

No. I am not. READ my post more carefully.

I AM pointing out that doctors are quite capable in mass, in some circumstances, of following/carrying out medical treatment policies that can be plain bad.

26 minutes ago, Goat said:

You know they have a Union, right?  Try doing that, and you'll have the entire NHS workforce out on strike the next day.

WTF are you smoking?!  Don't be so bloody naive.

Do you have any idea how many doctors get suspended/'struck off' each year?!

When was the last time doctors went on strike when a doctor got fired or struck off?

In any case, as we know, the majority of doctors happily swallowed and went along with the 'safe and effective' line re: the vaccines, and other treatment protocols (e.g. midazolam, DNR orders, etc.) and shunned the minority who dared to question these things.

 

26 minutes ago, Goat said:

And for that matter, what are the odds of some kind of order from above telling doctors to exterminate tens of thousands of their patients not making it onto the front page of the Guardian, BBC, Mirror, Times, Telegraph, and every other f***ing publication in the known universe within about 30 seconds of the order being sent out?

You really are being deliberately stupid here OR have cr*p English comprehension skills.

Again. I never claimed any direct policy of 'extermination'. I said - in response to your juvenile and naive comment re: Doctors and Harold Shipman - that the large collective of doctors will happily carry out medical policies which, later on in the cold light of day, will be seen to be stupid and/or arguably immoral.

Edited February 17, 2023 by anonguest