GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Because what other connected countries do affects you, so if you have no influence over what they do, you end up with uncontrollable external influences operating upon yourself. This is the position Switzerland is in. Rich, happy, and beautiful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, highYield said: Remainer doublethink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty What has sovereignty to do with influencing, or bossing around, others? It's about not being bossed around. Exactly, and something we will find difficult once outside the EU. Do you seriously think we will be able to make the EU or US/NAFTA bend to our will. Of course not we will find ourselves having to follow rules set by these genuinely powerful blocks. We will quickly find out that UK is no longer a global power and have to get used to being bossed around (a big change from our current [position of being part of the worlds biggest trade block and winning 95% of the votes that decide that blocks policy) Hence by your own definition we will have less sovereignty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Just now, thecrashingisles said: Because what other connected countries to affects you, so if you have no influence over what they do, you end up with uncontrollable external influences operating upon yourself. This is the position Switzerland is in. I see what he's getting at, but it seems disingenuous to try to redefine a word that means power over ourselves - as meaning a little bit of power over others to moderate their power over us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, highYield said: I see what he's getting at, but it seems disingenuous to try to redefine a word that means power over ourselves - as meaning a little bit of power over others to moderate their power over us. Someone put it quite well before the referendum: In essence, the question the country has to answer on 23rd June – whether to Leave or Remain – is about how we maximise Britain’s security, prosperity and influence in the world, and how we maximise our sovereignty: that is, the control we have over our own affairs in future. I use the word “maximise” advisedly, because no country or empire in world history has ever been totally sovereign, completely in control of its destiny. Even at the height of their power, the Roman Empire, Imperial China, the Ottomans, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, modern-day America, were never able to have everything their own way. At different points, military rivals, economic crises, diplomatic manoeuvring, competing philosophies and emerging technologies all played their part in inflicting defeats and hardships, and necessitated compromises even for states as powerful as these. Today, those factors continue to have their effect on the sovereignty of nations large and small, rich and poor. But there is now an additional complication. International, multilateral institutions exist to try to systematise negotiations between nations, promote trade, ensure cooperation on matters like cross-border crime, and create rules and norms that reduce the risk of conflict. These institutions invite nation states to make a trade-off: to pool and therefore cede some sovereignty in a controlled way, to prevent a greater loss of sovereignty in an uncontrolled way, through for example military conflict or economic decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Exactly, and something we will find difficult once outside the EU. Do you seriously think we will be able to make the EU or US/NAFTA bend to our will. Of course not we will find ourselves having to follow rules set by these genuinely powerful blocks. We will quickly find out that UK is no longer a global power and have to get used to being bossed around (a big change from our current [position of being part of the worlds biggest trade block and winning 95% of the votes that decide that blocks policy) Hence by your own definition we will have less sovereignty. My own definition? I'm not the one trying to redefine a word with a specific meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Rich, happy, and beautiful? There are an awful lot of differences between us and Switzerland, one of them is that they accept 4 times as many migrants per capita as the UK. Perhaps that's it, all we have to do is quadruple immigration and we can be like Switzerland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, highYield said: My own definition? I'm not the one trying to redefine a word with a specific meaning. Really what was: "What has sovereignty to do with influencing, or bossing around, others? It's about not being bossed around." As definitions go, I thought it was quite a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said: There are an awful lot of differences between us and Switzerland, one of them is that they accept 4 times as many migrants per capita as the UK. Perhaps that's it, all we have to do is quadruple immigration and we can be like Switzerland. Linky on that statistic plz, because it sounds like ********. by your logic Malta is more sovereign than Singapore because it is part of a super nation state. which is completely absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Linky on that statistic plz, because it sounds like ********. 25% of the population of Switzerland were born elsewhere - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Is it sovereign? Yes. Like Britain, it has a Queen. The Queen of the Commonwealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatmanfilms Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 25% of the population of Switzerland were born elsewhere - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland Thats not correct 25% are non Swiss, many of whom were born in Switzerland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 25% of the population of Switzerland were born elsewhere - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland And 13.6% in the UK according to the ONS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom thats not four times less is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Linky on that statistic plz, because it sounds like ********. by your logic Malta is more sovereign than Singapore because it is part of a super nation state. which is completely absurd. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html No, neither make for a sensible comparison with the UK, so it would be illogical to try and apply my logic to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: Yes. Like Britain, it has a Queen. The Queen of the Commonwealth. Singapore is a Republic and the president is this lady; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halimah_Yacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html No, neither make for a sensible comparison with the UK, so it would be illogical to try and apply my logic to them. Fair enough. Thanks for the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Singapore is a Republic and the president is this lady; The Commonwealth of Nations is a voluntary association of 52 sovereign states. Singapore sovereign noun 1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. 2. a person who has supreme power or authority. 3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority. HM. The Queen is head of the Commonwealth. Edited January 14, 2018 by ZeroSumGame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: The Commonwealth of Nations is a voluntary association of 52 sovereign states. Singapore sovereign noun 1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. 2. a person who has supreme power or authority. 3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority. Clearly the key to singapore’s Success is the commonwealth! I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say the queen of Singapore is ER2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Clearly the key to singapore’s Success is the commonwealth! I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say the queen of Singapore is ER2. H.M. The Queen is head of the Commonwealth. (for the 3rd time!). Singapore is a member of the Commonwealth. 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Clearly the key to singapore’s Success is the commonwealth! Is it? would you care to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: H.M. The Queen is head of the Commonwealth. (for the 3rd time!). Singapore is a member of the Commonwealth. Is it? would you care to explain? Hmmm. Technically I guess - but it’s a bit bollocksy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_in_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations The republics in the Commonwealth of Nations are the sovereign states of the Commonwealth of Nations with a republican form of government. As of May 2017, there are 31 of these. In contrast to the 16 Commonwealth realms, they do not have Elizabeth II or any other monarch as their head of state. Elizabeth II is still the titular Head of the Commonwealth in a personal capacity, but this role does not carry with it any power; instead, it is a symbol of the free association of Commonwealth members. is the commonwealth key to Singapore’s wealth? Is it fEUk. They have done a great job sitting on the edge of a large continental land mass, as an island nation, sovereign and maximising their position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Quote is the commonwealth key to Singapore’s wealth? Is it fEUk. They have done a great job sitting on the edge of a large continental land mass, as an island nation, sovereign and maximising their position. Fine. What has that got to do with BREXIT? Where is the connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: Fine. What has that got to do with BREXIT? Where is the connection? Small independent island nation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: Small independent island nation... The UK is: - Not small - Not an island - Not fully independent (see the Good Friday Agreement for details) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Small independent island nation... Yes Singapore is. I'll repeat the question : what does that have to do with BREXIT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Hope you remainer’s Have our taxpayers chequebook ready to bail out Italy.. it will be interesting to see the result of this election.. really remainers opinion is a bit void if the rest of the members electorate have had enough of the EU as well it makes no odds really what you want if it all collapses.. “yes we want to scupper Brexit to stay in”.. sorry sir the EU has ceased trading due to a champagne and caviar shortage! ? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/904198/Italy-Italian-election-EU-European-Union-euro-eurozone-M5S-Luigi-Di-Maio-M5S-video/amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, macca13 said: Hope you remainer’s Have our taxpayers chequebook ready to bail out Italy.. it will be interesting to see the result of this election.. really remainers opinion is a bit void if the rest of the members electorate have had enough of the EU as well it makes no odds really what you want if it all collapses.. “yes we want to scupper Brexit to stay in”.. sorry sir the EU has ceased trading due to a champagne and caviar shortage! ? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/904198/Italy-Italian-election-EU-European-Union-euro-eurozone-M5S-Luigi-Di-Maio-M5S-video/amp If you think the EU will disappear soon then there's no point leaving it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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