streamingfreedom Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That's another very big surprise then but it doesn't really explain it because for sure they came (many hundreds of thousands) - in the period leading upto the economic collapse (2007/2008) the media was full of reports that UK building sites were full of thousands upon thousands of cheap reliable Polish etc workers to make up for the absence of British construction workers that were laid off during the 80s/90s recession (about 1 million British construction workers were laid off then - and most never went back). In the years before the 2007/2008 economic collapse you couldn't move in the shops etc for queues of Polish etc workers who were clearly from the building sites. You could see it yourself every day. They might have changed jobs or some even gone back to Poland but there's no doubt that they came to work on the sites at least before 2007/2008. So it's amazing that they're now claiming there's shortage of capacity. Maybe they found hand washing cars for a few hours plus UK benefits and tax credits easier. Now they'll want a fresh batch of builders/bricklayers etc from Poland etc who will eventually end up washing cars etc - and so it goes on. For some reason they didn't flock into bricklaying like they did hotels and forecourts. There may have been some but they aren't there now. I remember the present talking it up around that time and also remember my dad saying he hasn't seen any of them. I stopped paying much attention to what the papers report a long time ago, I believe the man on the ground over them anyday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I love that flooring is included. So convenient not to have to hop from rafter to rafter on your way from the kitchen to the settee. Ha ha free Windows to keep the gusts out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Ha ha free Windows to keep the gusts out Doors extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Still firmly, 100% believe that on the supply / building side we need to stop the actual need increasing by eliminating population growth. Anything else is just condemning us to a worsening living environment (inadquate housing and more development both being big negatives). Even if it was stopped now unfortunately building needs to catch up but there's no way around that. Look past the immediate symptoms to the disease. But I'm also firmly with the "supply isn't the major component of price rises" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor_Blade Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I thought that was a multi story car park at first glance. Looks more like an office block IMO, whichever of us is right though properties like that are enough to put millions off buying - never mind the price tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Agreed, but the lack of supply in recent years masks (and simplifies) the problem. Other countries that actually built and saw prices go up have came to realise that the bubble was not primarily an issue of supply. Where did that happen? Spain found that building houses made prices crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Where did that happen? Spain found that building houses made prices crash. And prices went up[ despite massive over supply....turned out the problem might have been sub prime lending, media ramping, idiot British buyers and a global bank driven housing bubble. Am I wrong ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 And prices went up[ despite massive over supply....turned out the problem might have been sub prime lending, media ramping, idiot British buyers and a global bank driven housing bubble. Am I wrong ? Prices in Southern Spain are still about 20-30% of peak which is a massive crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantnrave Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 I was more thinking along the lines of Ireland, which also built massively and watched prices soar. Prices crashed when the banks stopped lending and as Euro members they couldn't print. In order to stop recent price rises getting out of hand, the Irish announced restrictions to mortgage lending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) For some reason they didn't flock into bricklaying like they did hotels and forecourts. There may have been some but they aren't there now. I remember the present talking it up around that time and also remember my dad saying he hasn't seen any of them. I stopped paying much attention to what the papers report a long time ago, I believe the man on the ground over them anyday I agree with you on the accuracy of the papers. It's often not what they say but what they miss out although the articles were too regular and relatively detailed in some locations to be discounted. For sure quite a few sites wouldn't have any at all. 10 February 2004 http:// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3475147.stm Shock to economy If all the illegal construction workers in London were rounded up and sent home tomorrow, it would send shockwaves through the capital's economy, says George Brumwell, of the industry union UCATT. Each time there's a spot check they'll always pick up a few illegals - you'll never find a building site full of them, that would be too conspicuous George Brumwell "Of the 200,000 building workers in London, probably 40,000 are migrants and a fair proportion are illegals. It's a dirty, physically tiring job - perhaps you might say the last big manual heavy industry in Britain," he says. Wages can be horrendously low. Four years ago, 11 Indian stonemasons were found working on a temple in west London, some for as little as 30p an hour. Yet the problem is getting worse, says Mr Brumwell. "Each time there's a spot check on a big site they'll always pick up a few illegals. You'll never find a building site full of them, that would be too conspicuous. Mr Brumwell's union consistently fights illegal labour. But he admits that while the construction industry remains a driver of the economy - worth £70bn a year - coupled with the skills shortage in the UK labour market, contractors will be tempted by illegal foreign workers. The government's promised crackdown on gangmasters has been welcomed by the unions, but British industry's addiction to illegal labour may be harder to crack. One article of many at the time although mainly focused on what they termed "illegals" especially in London. 20% (if the article is accurate) in London and with more than 2 million construction workers that would make 400,000 in total. Maybe fewer outside of London so say something like 300,000 (only a guesstimate). So where did they all go including the legal ones and the home grown ones - because the construction industry seemed to cope (even if by employing illegals) in terms of capacity/output in those days. Edited December 21, 2015 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democorruptcy Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Dame Kate Barker, a former Bank of England policymaker, warned this month that housebuilders will not be able to build the homes England needs even by the end of the decade, because the industry lacks the capacity to ramp up supply. Dame Kate, who published an independent review of housing supply in 2004, said England needed to build around 300,000 new homes a year to meet its housing needs. However, she added: “I think the industry would not be capable of going from here to 300,000 [homes a year] in short order." Did I miss where it mentioned that since her independent review, she became an Independent Non Executive Director of Taylor Wimpey house builders? https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/about-us/who-we-are/our-people/plc-board In 2011 she was expected to earn £60,000 for that part-time role, though it doesn't say how much for her Yorkshire Building Society or the Private Equity and Investment Bank roles Barker, who served on the MPC from 2001 to 2010 and was a housing advisor to the Government, will join the housebuilder as a non-executive director in April. She is expected to earn £60,000 a year in the part-time role — just the latest she has taken up since she left Threadneedle Street. Barker is a non-executive director of Electra Private Equity and Yorkshire Building Society as well as a senior advisor to investment bank Credit Suisse. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-1712050/Ex-rate-setter-Barker-joins-Taylor-Wimpey.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streamingfreedom Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I agree with you on the accuracy of the papers. It's often not what they say but what they miss out although the articles were too regular and relatively detailed in some locations to be discounted. For sure quite a few sites wouldn't have any at all. One article of many at the time although mainly focused on what they termed "illegals" especially in London. 20% (if the article is accurate) in London and with more than 2 million construction workers that would make 400,000 in total. Maybe fewer outside of London so say something like 300,000 (only a guesstimate). So where did they all go including the legal ones and the home grown ones - because the construction industry seemed to cope (even if by employing illegals) in terms of capacity/output in those days. The last recession 2008 wiped out many in construction. A lot had just come out of apprenticeships and found no work, others just lost income overnight as the work dried up and went into other things. My dad as a bricklayer was out of work for 6 months at the time but had paid off his mortgage so was able to stick it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Barker, who served on the MPC from 2001 to 2010 and was a housing advisor to the Government,............... So people are supposed to listen to her/their advice now when she/they apparently failed to see that so many leaving the construction industry again would lead to future problems again. Similar to the lack of planning ahead during the 80s/90s recession. Repeating the same mistakes over and over again - lessons never being learnt. Edited December 21, 2015 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Where did that happen? Spain found that building houses made prices crash. The boom was still going in China with ghost cities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 The boom was still going in China with ghost cities. And when the banks collapse..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 And when the banks collapse..... Don't even need that in China. Just growth to dip to 4%. The Spain/Ireland examples are a bit of a myth imo. Many houses where already half built when the credit taps got turned off. Hence the impression that building brought the prices down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sPinwheel Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Looks more like an office block IMO, whichever of us is right though properties like that are enough to put millions off buying - never mind the price tag. It was an office block. Guess what is was? The Land Registry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assume The Opposite Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Looking at the latest new development in my town in Northamptonshire, it looks like the cheapest house starts from £130k. Comparing the sizes to my rented house which was built in early 2000's, they seem tiny. But far more expensive. How can buyers think this is a good deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I used to have a contract-monthly parking spot here.. well down the old cobbled road side of Potato Wharf anyway. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320921/Developers-erect-fake-building-overnight-Potato-Wharf-Manchester-recession-halts-block-construction.html Real estate runs on money, not on population growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 And not that development, but different developer nearby... poor investors. At least renters can move from such newbuilds investor fest. 2012 All four blocks in the scheme off Chester Road, built by Mayfair Development & Properties, are thought to have the same issue with soil pipes not properly secured, resulting in waste water flooding some apartments on a regular basis.Repeated efforts by the management committee and the managing agents Scanlans to get the situation resolved and numerous reports and promises had met with frustration and it had begun affecting values with one two bed apartment failing to sell at auction last week for £75,000....a Southern based investor, who owns two flats in Mere House, one of which has been flooded twice....She said: “It’s been dreadful. One of the flats was flooded with waste, sewage really, from the flat above, at Christmas 2010, and we had to compensate the tenants who then understandably left. We had all sorts of problems with the insurance about who would pay for what and it was empty for two and a half months while it was repaired.“Then it flooded again last summer. No-one would accept responsibility. We have had to accept a reduced rent of £650 while for the other one, which has not been affected at all, we get £800.” And that seems to be the problem, with some flats badly hit and others not at all. Add in that many units were bought by investors who live hundreds of miles away and it has been a difficult situation to manage and pull together.Alex Norman of Scanlans said: “The problem is with the soil stacks which warp, pulling away from the wall allowing waste water to flood into units below.“Numerous reports have been done and the NHBC has given the developer opportunities to do repairs. But they were notified of this fundamental fault four years ago and I thought that was the point of the NHBC, that they stepped in when there was a major build issue that needs addressing. It has been a totally frustrating process.”And she is slightly sceptical of the latest pledge to take over from the builder. She said: “I really hope that they do step in and get it resolved once and for all for the sake of the owners who want to protect their investment and the people who enjoy living there. But the repairs could involve substantial work on each flat so we will have to wait and see.”It could mean builders going into each of the 220 properties and breaking through the bathroom wall to properly secure the soil stack and then repair the wall again.Pulled from web-archive as original source is down... (+comments) http://web.archive.org/web/20120607060359/http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/Property/House-Builder-Council-Investigates-Mere-House Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 And not that development, but different developer nearby... poor investors. At least renters can move from such newbuilds investor fest. ...She said: “It’s been dreadful. One of the flats was flooded with waste, sewage really, from the flat above, at Christmas 2010, and we had to compensate the tenants who then understandably left. We had all sorts of problems with the insurance about who would pay for what and it was empty for two and a half months while it was repaired. Are we seriously proposing that renters should be able to escape spending Christmas in a pool of shite? What kind of world is this? What about the poor BTL landlord? Will nobody think of the investor? They took a risk so they ought to get a reward, not a void full of the consequences of voiding by the people upstairs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RentaBear Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I used to have a contract-monthly parking spot here.. well down the old cobbled road side of Potato Wharf anyway. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320921/Developers-erect-fake-building-overnight-Potato-Wharf-Manchester-recession-halts-block-construction.html Real estate runs on money, not on population growth. If that's running on borrowed money for the build - I'd imagine their lender would want to see a real building before sending them the next tranche of the loan, and I'd also suspect that if they have PP for 2 blocks, just building one wouldn't make the planners happy either - they've achieved half their agreed housing density on that plot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Looking at the latest new development in my town in Northamptonshire, it looks like the cheapest house starts from £130k. Comparing the sizes to my rented house which was built in early 2000's, they seem tiny. But far more expensive. How can buyers think this is a good deal? At the peak of the tulip bulb madness, some people were happy to buy a tiny shriveled up specimen as it was all that was left ... they knew however they could sell it at a profit in the future, and it was fine for a first step on the tulip bulb ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assume The Opposite Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 At the peak of the tulip bulb madness, some people were happy to buy a tiny shriveled up specimen as it was all that was left ... they knew however they could sell it at a profit in the future, and it was fine for a first step on the tulip bulb ladder. Thats one of the most sobering statements I've heard on here. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Thats one of the most sobering statements I've heard on here. Wow. TULIP BULB CONNOISSEUR SAYS RECORD BREAKING TULIP BULB DEAL TO SIGN SUMMER 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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