Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[Mossie]

 

55 minutes ago, Jurassic Bland said:

It's clearly not in-fighting as this @Mossie chap is a bit moody to qualify as 'in' and there'd have to be somebody fighting back in order for it to be fighting.

It's odd to me that we have a relatively new poster who want's to use this thread to rip into people who've spend years posting data and analysis in order to share as widely as possible the comedy of the PovertyLaters paddling them up Sh!t Creek by MEWing out the money they needed to pay their CGT bills.

@Mossie's motivation is utterly incomprehensible to me. I accept that there's always been a strand of the posting on the forum (particularly by new posters, and we were all new posters once) which involves angrily explaining the obvious to people who are already aware of it. @Mossie's innovation with regard to that time-honoured motif appears to be a determination to take the comedy out of the comedy thread by doing it here. 

Very predictable.   JB gave the perfect example of someone very very moody, with your post that broke any 'mainstream' view on acceptable forum conduct in my view.  Laugh that off all you want but it was wrong to do.   

I consider it a breach of forum rules, but would be for one of the HPC moderators to decide.  You could have easily admitted it was wrong, and an assurance you won't do it again, but not forthcoming.  You were in the wrong.  Totally.

This thread got pulled away from the BTLer type 118ers with JB's posts a few pages back, about BTL a mainstream investment activity, and how BTLers don't think / see the harm a few pages back.  I countered it a few pages back.  And rolleyed my eyes about it on a few others after JB told about their BTLer friend.   

Then a few pages later on same thread, JB steps in from nowhere, with your screenshot, encouraging others to put me on ignore?  That is bad forum behaviour.  And because I have called you out on it, your go to excuse is that I have pulled thread off-topic?

BTL is only mainstream only for people who already own homes, and for years been buying more, and those who have chosen to follow them in doing BTL themselves, for year after year, for decades.  Housing financialisation. 

Many others don't consider BTL mainstream.  There are challenges to it including comments on newspaper articles who call it parasitic financial activity, and make other good honest posts calling it out for what it is, and what the BTLers actually are about, and seek to challenge them hard on what they do.

Mainstream: considered normal, and having or using ideas, beliefs, etc. that are accepted by most people:

Quote

 

BTLers... The idea that you are somehow helping people is a complete fallacy, it would be like me cornering the market in dialysis machines, renting them to hospitals at inflated prices and then claiming I was "saving lives".

Your simply a middle man in the chain between someone's income and the mortgage payments to buy the house.

At the end of the day the world doesn't owe you a pension, especially one funded by other peoples income while giving nothing of value back to the economy. If you want an income then make a real productive investment in something, start a business, get a better job and save more money i.e. do one of the things the people who incomes you arn't able to farm any more have to do.

 

So there is a Boss of the HPC 'in-club' now?   Your high post count doesn't mean you are always right.   And you clearly don't like others disagreeing with your conclusions.

I have a wider 'in' from knowing so many priced out HPCer types who simply do not have any active time for forums.   They work and they pay the rent to multiple homeowning landlords.  People who chose to be BTLers. 

One BTLer sees his tenants almost each day, for he lives in the house next door.  Easy life sleep-in, every luxury, holidays, dressing-gown lifestyle, while seeing a young mid 30s couple rise early each morning, out for 7pm, to take children to nursery,  and then make the slog out for a full day at work, to return in the late evening.    

The BTLer has contributed to housing shortage and knows it.  Impossible to miss.   Feeds on it.  As do almost all of them.  Active choice.  They profit from it, and they know who pays, with the rental income that comes each month, and all the HPI they have had on their BTLs.   They could sell.  They didn't have to BTL in the first place, but chose to.  Homeownership and multiple BTLs rentals for them, in housing supply shortage they all created, by buying millions and millions of homes to rent out to other people.   It's about how they see themselves, and how little they really care for other people, in creating Generation Rent.   And many of them work hard to find plausible but bullsh1t reasoning for why they actually do good as BTLers, seeking to protect themselves and their BTL rent seeking positioning, while enjoying homeownership they want.  Something they have helped price their tenants out of, imo.

What good are all the very good posts on data, when the same person's conclusions are so misguided?

And when same person gets very sensitive to being challenged about it.   

[Mossie]

6 minutes ago, Jurassic Bland said:

When, possibly through no fault of their own, I feel that someone is bringing out the worst in me I'll just stick them on ignore (without posting about it). 

 

Ah-so admitted to having not followed what had gone on, so don't pat yourself on the back too quickly

Except that is not what you did.  What I would normally also do, and have done to others on other forums - when someone is disruptive and adding nothing of value, after time you may add them to your ignore list as you own choice. 

Instead you publicly announced me on Ignore, with a screenshot - and encouraged others to do the same.

That is why you are in the wrong.  And it seems because you didn't like your conclusions challenged. 

How mainstream is BTL for those priced out and paying up the rent?  Not at all mainstream.  It's others who take the position against them, and they have to pay for it, in ever higher house prices, and paying up the rent.

[Bland Unsight]

The real problem with going off-topic is that extremely important on-topic developments may be overlooked. I missed this PovertyLater article seven months ago:

Quote

And yes …… I’ve read all the negative media, of course I have. Some say that if Bitcoin continues on its current trajectory there won’t be enough electricity in the world to power the computer processing that trading it requires. Well maybe that’s true, or maybe it’s just propaganda put out there by those who cannot control it and are afraid of where it could take us. If it isn’t propaganda, you can bet your bottom dollar that the IT boffins will find a solution to make the processors more efficient. I remember my first mobile phone. It was a handset connected to a battery the size of a breeze block …. I kid you not! It came with 4 hours of standby and 20 minutes of talk-time. Compare that to where we are with mobile phone technology now.

Anyone want to guess who was promoting Dragon Mining "THE MOST SECURE CRYPTOCURRENCY MINE
IN THE WORLD" (according to the Dragon Mining website)?

To be fair, Busta is practically an IT boffin himself. He's got a computer, a website and a smattering of Klingon to boot (no pun intended)

Quote

And if you’re wondering why I haven’t mentioned crypto-currency mining….. well I’ve also taken a punt on that, details HERE if you’re interested.

So, in summary, I don’t consider that I have invested into crypto-currency …. but in years to come I may change my mind and say it was the best investment I ever made, or maybe I will have to skip a few holidays.

So there you have it.

Source

Anyway, he bumped his thread with an update earlier this evening.

Quote

Well, I think it’s time for an update.

So far I’ve made a small fortune of Bitcoin. The only problem is, is started with a larger one!

If only every day could make 7% return like today. I back to over half of what I invested now ?

I knew I should have purchased those shoes with Bitcoin!

It was a five year punt though so let’s see what happens.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Jurassic Bland

[Bear Hug]

1 hour ago, Lavalas said:

They’re all out of fight these days. I wish they’d give us some blow by blow accounts of selling up or a juicy tale about how PRA stopped them from mewing. I need them to provide some material so that I can laugh at them. Write some letters Ros ffs.

I suppose we could all pass the time by voting for Propertytribes here... 

https://www.property118.com/property118-nominated-prestigious-award/

Busta proper hates Propertytribes.

It's a tough one as they are probably all equally bad.  At least the shorlist provides some backup where to look for entertainment once Busta and povertyTripe go bust.

[Neverwhere]

26 minutes ago, Jurassic Bland said:

Source

Anyway, he bumped his thread with an update earlier this evening.

Quote

Well, I think it’s time for an update.

So far I’ve made a small fortune of Bitcoin. The only problem is, is started with a larger one!

If only every day could make 7% return like today. I back to over half of what I invested now ?

I knew I should have purchased those shoes with Bitcoin!

It was a five year punt though so let’s see what happens.

 

Such a well-timed moment to jump in behind the crowd

(Source)

[Neverwhere]

This seems almost feverish:

Quote

OMG I thought, this is a real currency! But then I thought …. hang on …. very few governments recognise it as such and cannot trace it. There isn’t a Central Bank of Bitcoin and there is no way to regulate bartering or for Governments to stop this.

Let me explain in even simpler terms. If I were to swap a tax consultation for a crate of champagne, nobody would be any the wiser and I’d certainly not have to declare it as income. Is that why Bitcoin is becoming so popular?

But is obviously wrong:

Quote

Revenue and Customs Brief 9 (2014): Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

CT, IT and CGT treatment of Bitcoin and similar cryptocurrencies

As with any other activity, whether the treatment of income received from, and charges made in connection with, activities involving Bitcoin and other similar cryptocurrencies will be subject to CT, IT or CGT depends on the activities and the parties involved.

Whether any profit or gain is chargeable or any loss is allowable will be looked at on a case-by-case basis taking into account the specific facts. Each case will be considered on the basis of its own individual facts and circumstances. The relevant legislation and case law will be applied to determine the correct tax treatment. Therefore, depending on the facts, a transaction may be so highly speculative that it is not taxable or any losses relievable.. For example gambling or betting wins are not taxable and gambling losses cannot be offset against other taxable profits.

For businesses which accept payment for goods or services in Bitcoin there is no change to when revenue is recognised or how taxable profits are calculated.

• CT - the profits or losses on exchange movements between currencies are taxable. For the tax treatment of virtual currencies, the general rules on foreign exchange and loan relationships apply. We have not at this stage identified any need to consider bespoke rules. For companies, exchange movements are determined between the company’s functional currency (usually the currency in which the accounts are prepared) and the other currency in question. If there is an exchange rate between Bitcoin and the functional currency then this analysis applies. Therefore no special tax rules for Bitcoin transactions are required. The profits and losses of a company entering into transactions involving Bitcoin would be reflected in accounts and taxable under normal CT rules
• IT - the profits and losses of a non-incorporated business on Bitcoin transactions must be reflected in their accounts and will be taxable on normal IT rules
• Chargeable gains: CT and CGT - if a profit or loss on a currency contract is not within trading profits or otherwise within the loan relationship rules, it would normally be taxable as a chargeable gain or allowable as a loss for CT or CGT purposes. Gains and losses incurred on Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies are chargeable or allowable for CGT if they accrue to an individual or, for CT on chargeable gains if they accrue to a company.

Not sure that's such a great advertisement for the tax consultancy service, but each to their own

[Exiled Canadian]

Mossie - any chance you could start a thread entitled "Is BTL Mainstream? or "Do BTLers deserve what's coming to them" or similar?

The issues you raise are worthy of debate - but this thread is really for the Poverty 118 comedy gold and similar....I came here for a bit of a laugh after work and I'm now so confused that I almost missed the obvious sell signal on Bitcoin a few posts ago...

[Mossie]

11 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

Mossie - any chance you could start a thread entitled "Is BTL Mainstream? or "Do BTLers deserve what's coming to them" or similar?

The issues you raise are worthy of debate - but this thread is really for the Poverty 118 comedy gold and similar....I came here for a bit of a laugh after work and I'm now so confused that I almost missed the obvious sell signal on Bitcoin a few posts ago...

I agree. 

I want to laugh more as well, but still paying up the rent to a BTLer with lots of houses.

Also want to feast of BTLers comedy gold, for the thread has been very slow on it for many months. 

I didn't take thread off-topic, but fully in the right to defend myself against completely unacceptable forum conduct by someone else, with the mainstream-investment claims and 'don't think' coming on this thread.   

Can't help but note the same person likes to go on about the joys of taking a thread off-topic when it suits them, but then patrols others if they do when doesn't suit them.  Although I do like to keep this topic for what it is.  

And my entire hopes of BTLers having to sell off, with no care if some of them have to take losses from their HPI riches, are tempered by the suggestions that BTLers as a 'mainstream' didn't really know what they were doing.  Strongly implying they are not responsible for it.   They they just joined the party and someone else to blame, for they have no minds of their own.  It's like multiple wars on the priced out tenant out there.  Comes in on them from all sides.   

And in my area, prices just down slightly on headache-worrying-banging new peaks.  Lets have the HPC that takes out lot more landlords first as well, for while some readying to offer excuses for them, for many HPCers have been guilty of a lot of premature congratulation.  1.8 million new BTL homes while some been counting the crash, and now offering excuses for BTLers as non thinkers, many of whom have seen HPI++ riches, and tenants, right now, paying up the rent to them.
 

Quote

 

Mossie - any chance you could start a thread entitled "Is BTL Mainstream? or "Do BTLers deserve what's coming to them" or similar?

 

Just want it to come to them, and them to sell more family homes back to the market.  Let others believe them the brainwashed idiots if that does good for their personal ego.   Many intelligent people are in BTL.  It appeals to many people.  I would like someone to try renting from their good BTL pal for a while.  Try being late on rent and see the tone.  Ask for some repairs.  Mention house prices are too high.....  

[Lavalas]

Imagine a choir, each member with a hymn book, and on every page is the exact same hymn printed over and over again.

[Exiled Canadian]

44 minutes ago, Mossie said:

I agree. 

I want to laugh more as well, but still paying up the rent to a BTLer with lots of houses.

Also want to feast of BTLers comedy gold, for the thread has been very slow on it for many months. 

I didn't take thread off-topic, but fully in the right to defend myself against completely unacceptable forum conduct by someone else, with the mainstream-investment claims and 'don't think' coming on this thread.   

Can't help but note the same person likes to go on about the joys of taking a thread off-topic when it suits them, but then patrols others if they do when doesn't suit them.  Although I do like to keep this topic for what it is.  

And my entire hopes of BTLers having to sell off, with no care if some of them have to take losses from their HPI riches, are tempered by the suggestions that BTLers as a 'mainstream' didn't really know what they were doing.  Strongly implying they are not responsible for it.   They they just joined the party and someone else to blame, for they have no minds of their own.  It's like multiple wars on the priced out tenant out there.  Comes in on them from all sides.   

And in my area, prices just down slightly on headache-worrying-banging new peaks.  Lets have the HPC that takes out lot more landlords first as well, for while some readying to offer excuses for them, for many HPCers have been guilty of a lot of premature congratulation.  1.8 million new BTL homes while some been counting the crash, and now offering excuses for BTLers as non thinkers, many of whom have seen HPI++ riches, and tenants, right now, paying up the rent to them.
 

Just want it to come to them, and them to sell more family homes back to the market.  Let others believe them the brainwashed idiots if that does good for their personal ego.   Many intelligent people are in BTL.  It appeals to many people.  I would like someone to try renting from their good BTL pal for a while.  Try being late on rent and see the tone.  Ask for some repairs.  Mention house prices are too high.....  

I'll take that as a "no" then.

[Mossie]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

I'll take that as a "no" then.

Take it as a yes.

Quote

 

I agree. 

I want to laugh more as well, but still paying up the rent to a BTLer with lots of houses.

Also want to feast of BTLers comedy gold, for the thread has been very slow on it for many months. 

 

 I'll even read it from the Head Choirmaster and his Leading Gulled Choirboy, who sung so quickly to the tune desired.

[Exiled Canadian]

34 minutes ago, Mossie said:

Take it as a yes.

 

Thank you.

[iamnumerate]

12 hours ago, Mossie said:

 

Very predictable.   JB gave the perfect example of someone very very moody, with your post that broke any 'mainstream' view on acceptable forum conduct in my view.  Laugh that off all you want but it was wrong to do.   

I consider it a breach of forum rules, but would be for one of the HPC moderators to decide.  You could have easily admitted it was wrong, and an assurance you won't do it again, but not forthcoming.  You were in the wrong.  Totally.

This thread got pulled away from the BTLer type 118ers with JB's posts a few pages back, about BTL a mainstream investment activity, and how BTLers don't think / see the harm a few pages back.  I countered it a few pages back.  And rolleyed my eyes about it on a few others after JB told about their BTLer friend.   

Then a few pages later on same thread, JB steps in from nowhere, with your screenshot, encouraging others to put me on ignore?  That is bad forum behaviour.  And because I have called you out on it, your go to excuse is that I have pulled thread off-topic?

BTL is only mainstream only for people who already own homes, and for years been buying more, and those who have chosen to follow them in doing BTL themselves, for year after year, for decades.  Housing financialisation. 

Many others don't consider BTL mainstream.  There are challenges to it including comments on newspaper articles who call it parasitic financial activity, and make other good honest posts calling it out for what it is, and what the BTLers actually are about, and seek to challenge them hard on what they do.

Mainstream: considered normal, and having or using ideas, beliefs, etc. that are accepted by most people:

So there is a Boss of the HPC 'in-club' now?   Your high post count doesn't mean you are always right.   And you clearly don't like others disagreeing with your conclusions.

I have a wider 'in' from knowing so many priced out HPCer types who simply do not have any active time for forums.   They work and they pay the rent to multiple homeowning landlords.  People who chose to be BTLers. 

One BTLer sees his tenants almost each day, for he lives in the house next door.  Easy life sleep-in, every luxury, holidays, dressing-gown lifestyle, while seeing a young mid 30s couple rise early each morning, out for 7pm, to take children to nursery,  and then make the slog out for a full day at work, to return in the late evening.    

The BTLer has contributed to housing shortage and knows it.  Impossible to miss.   Feeds on it.  As do almost all of them.  Active choice.  They profit from it, and they know who pays, with the rental income that comes each month, and all the HPI they have had on their BTLs.   They could sell.  They didn't have to BTL in the first place, but chose to.  Homeownership and multiple BTLs rentals for them, in housing supply shortage they all created, by buying millions and millions of homes to rent out to other people.   It's about how they see themselves, and how little they really care for other people, in creating Generation Rent.   And many of them work hard to find plausible but bullsh1t reasoning for why they actually do good as BTLers, seeking to protect themselves and their BTL rent seeking positioning, while enjoying homeownership they want.  Something they have helped price their tenants out of, imo.

What good are all the very good posts on data, when the same person's conclusions are so misguided?

And when same person gets very sensitive to being challenged about it.   

+1

[thewig]

How is this NOT vengerbot? ??

[Neverwhere]

6 hours ago, thewig said:

How is this NOT vengerbot? ??

They're not Venger.

This is Venger:

On 12/03/2018 at 22:30, Venger said:

I have learned so much from you to my gain - including so many matters away from house prices; about life and life outlook itself.

And that's true for many other minds on HPC forum.  It's no secret I'm a big fan of Bland Unsight (another real Mind). 

Source

[Neverwhere]

21 hours ago, Exiled Canadian said:

I came here for a bit of a laugh after work and I'm now so confused that I almost missed the obvious sell signal on Bitcoin a few posts ago...

Did you miss the shoes too?

Tell me you didn't miss the shoes!

Quote

My Bitcoin Shoes Story

Like my new shoes?

OK, fair enough, they are not to everybody’s taste but that’s not the point. I love em!

Being a bit of an exhibitionist they caught my eye when they popped up on a Facebook advert. Love em or hate em, at least they will be a talking point at Xmas parties! LOL

The real point though is this; when I chose my size, clicked the order button and was redirected to the payment page I was presented with a variety of options; Visa, Mastercard, PayPal ……. and low and behold Bitcoin!

 

[Neverwhere]

Also some great insight into why Busta got into BTL 

Quote

Mark Alexander

7 months ago

Had to Google FOMO “Fear Of Missing Out”, yes I definitely suffer from that. It’s what got me into property LOL

 

[Bear Hug]

8 hours ago, thewig said:

How is this NOT vengerbot? ??

I also hinted at that with my earlier post of the Vengaboys (...are back in town) video.  But that was probably dismissed as just another trolling.  Although, I sometimes also suspect that Venga, Bland, McBeary and Count are all the same person just arguing with himself.  Again, let's not lose focus on what BTL scum are up to.  Busta already gave us bitcon shoeshine boy moment...

[Bland Unsight]

10 minutes ago, Bear Hug said:

I also hinted at that with my earlier post of the Vengaboys (...are back in town) video.  But that was probably dismissed as just another trolling.  Although, I sometimes also suspect that Venga, Bland, McBeary and Count are all the same person just arguing with himself.  Again, let's not lose focus on what BTL scum are up to.  Busta already gave us bitcon shoeshine boy moment...

After some checking I can confirm that Bland and McBeary are the same person, but you got there first, so h/t you. (I forgot I was me.)

[Bland Unsight]

If you want a comedy thread that's mostly comedy, check Property118 for comedy, then post it.

If you want a thread that's a flame war with trolls, feed the trolls.

There's plenty of complexity in life just none regarding how to keep this thread sunny and funny.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Jurassic Bland

[BorrowToLeech]

On 17/07/2018 at 22:12, Neverwhere said:

Let me explain in even simpler terms. If I were to swap a tax consultation for a crate of champagne, nobody would be any the wiser and I’d certainly not have to declare it as income.

Is that true?

[Neverwhere]

3 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Is that true?

No - and it's also not me that said it!

As per the HMRC policy paper I linked to above:

Quote

For businesses which accept payment for goods or services in Bitcoin there is no change to when revenue is recognised or how taxable profits are calculated.

 

[Mossie]

@Jurassic Bland 

So you seek continuation, even though I had the good grace to allow the matter to drop, and previously showed you a lot of reasonableness, against your own very poor forum conduct, in simply wanting an assurance you would not repeat that type of very negative forum conduct in the future.

Do not label me a troll simply because I disagreed with your conclusions to on this thread.  Or continue to do so, but it reflects badly on you, not me.   You are mistaken if you think your conduct is anything approaching shining here.  Lot of chinks in your armour.

I continue to reject your your position on this matter, which, even though this is supposed to be a 'comedy' thread about BTLers - although at times dismisses them as being idiots, and one you also claim are just mugs for the benefit of the banks.

On 24/04/2018 at 19:09, Jurassic Bland said:

The key thing about buy-to-let is that it has become a mainstream financial 'product' hence most landlords are just totally normal people who have just done what everybody else was doing.

In one way it is a mainstream financial product, but it is almost always for people who have the good fortune to already own a home, and they make their choice to lay claim to another.

It's not mainstream in the sense that the majority think it's an okay thing.  Indeed there is much, but not enough, rejection of BTLism in general population.  Yet it's difficult to form a wider campaign against it, for it is interlaced with much of how protective people are of the high-value of their homes.  By itself though, there are many minds who are hard against BTL/landlords, and reject all notions of them doing anything of economic value, simply self-serving grab on properties, and believe the system hard-tilted on their side.  As it has actually been with tax-relief.

The main point of disagreement I have with you, is your over-arching conclusion, that you want people to accept, framing it from 'BTL is mainstream', to the BTLers are just totally normal people, doing what everyone else was doing.   That they don't have the mindpower to think.  That they do BTL, and don't see anything wrong with it.

They can think.  It is upon them to think.  And it's clear and obvious that for the most part, their tenants are people who can not afford to buy.   The average BTL landlord being a 50 year old zone homeowner.   And if they don't think it through, it's all upon them.   They have caused the problem for others.  They vet their tenants.  They do inspections.  They get reports from agents when they have them.  They ultimately decide repairs done or not. They have power of S21s.   They collect the rent each month.   And many of them create self-serving twisting arguments for why the tenants being priced out is nothing to do with them.   They know, but they put themselves first, over other people.   Each night the BTLer sleeps they know they have claim on another home.  Week after week their are mainstream newspaper stories about Gen Rent and homeownership high prices, with their 2+ homes, collecting the rent.

And the thing is I can post up quotes where you have admitted they have 'chosen their side, neighbours as tenants.'  You know they think.  It seems to me you have another agenda.  Perhaps against banks, or maybe just an ego thing as thinking other people incapable of being as clever as you, and that people should not be free to make their own choices.  Combine that with posts about worrying for owners and buyers from so many years ago, given market up 50% and more in many areas, it turns out people didn't need saving on the buying and owning side.  Their view seen them happy for the most part.  Especially against renters further priced out, in no small part to each individual BTLer who has bought another home to rent out since 2010.  Nearly 2 million homes as I understand it.

On 25/04/2018 at 18:57, Jurassic Bland said:

Anyway, the main idea I was attempting to communicate is that BTL is sufficiently mainstream that many people who chose to engage in it probably don't think for a moment about whether it is wrong or right. Enough people do it that is gains a degree of social acceptability and therefore people are willing to engage in it  by virtue of a kind of daft exculpatory logic that if enough people are doing it then it can't be that wrong to do it. 

And, you take away agency.  You make it sound as the BTLers have no minds of their own, and are just innocents who have been lulled into it by 'other prudent BTL landlords'  (prudent BTL landlords, a term you have used this year), or by the media, or by banks, rather than being fully responsible for what they do.   You don't just wake up as a homeowner, and find yourself with another property BTL.  It's agency.  Fully involved.

It also explains some of why in other posts you have been calling for a safe-space on HPC for any in-financial-distress.

On 29/04/2018 at 16:07, Jurassic Bland said:

I guess that you and I have a difference of opinion as to what it takes for a financial product to be called 'mainstream'. If a suitably capitalised person with sufficient income can get the product at every single major UK mortgage lender, if there are two million of them in the market and if there are about a million people with them I am prepared to call the financial product 'mainstream' even if the terminology is quite informal.

If you don't want to call the financial product 'mainstream' because there are people who can't access it, then that's your prerogative.

It's the conclusion you make that I reject entirely.  Mainstream in only one sense, in that it's sold 1.8M BTL mortgages in last few years, but only to mostly other homeowners.  And tenants captured by it all.

And I argue against your position, that the BTLers don't think.

 

On 17/07/2018 at 19:21, Jurassic Bland said:

That's not how the world is. For all the talk from erstwhile HPC trolls on other fora about the HPC moderators being trigger happy, HPC has always been an open forum and certainly since I started following the forum in 2011 the moderators  have always been pretty light touch. To put the matter more positively, for as long as I have been reading the forum the HPC moderators have in my opinion always been judicious and given posters who bore on a bit the benefit of the doubt when there was a question as to whether they were a bore or a troll.

That may be so, but you should be cautious speaking for any of the HPC Moderators, imo.  If they were to read this, they have minds of their owns, and have an opinion, I should imagine.

I have to believe I am on very safe-ground with any HPC Moderator in holding to my view that the BTLers actively knew what they were doing, and are responsible for their own BTLing actions.   About individuals having their own minds.  About matters of agency and responsibility and culpability. 

That no one forced them into it.  That it was always upon them to think about it, and consider what they were doing.

I would wonder what a Moderator on HPC was about, if they were not honest and true to reality about housing financialisation.

If any HPC Moderator held a viewpoint similar to you, they would never take any action, or hold any view, because it would be people are not 'clever enough/trusted enough, not really responsible for their own choices'.  It's difficult to Moderate a forum about multi-trillion pound housing market (with BTLers owning a £1Trillion of it).  I should imagine them quite experienced in reality of the world.

   What a man can do, and what a man can't do.  And the BTLers do what they do, know why they do it, and put themselves first.   For money.   Own home and lay claim to another.  It's about how they see themselves, over how lowly they see other people.

And I hold that my position, simply seeking an assurance you would not repeat that type of forum conduct again, was very reasonable.  I didn't report it.  You even came back with more of the same stuff and I remained calm.  Simply wanted an assurance you would not repeat it.   

Regardless, I would certainly risk a judgment on my position about this very matter (agency/though of a individual buying a BTL - or not according to you) with any HPC Moderator, over your position about it. 

(Separate to the matter of your recent forum conduct against me, which I had dropped, but you choose to escalate again by label me me a troll - I am not riled by it, but it really is not a good look for you at all.  You need to stop.  I haven't reported it to Mods, don't want to report it, but it's simply wrong by you.).

 

Quote

On 28/05/2014 at 17:06, Timak said.

There are different types of BTL investors.

My parents-in-law would never have bought a BTL flat (indeed they were massively against it) however they had several hundred k sitting in a bank account earning 1%.

If they'd shopped around they'd be getting 2% at best in a savings account (maybe slightly more)

If they'd bought shares they might have gone up, maybe down and with dividends they'd be making maybe 4%. However in living memory the stock market has lost and recovered 50% of its value.

With the flat they bought they get a yield of about 4% (after costs and contingency), price might go up or down (up about £50k so far) in the long term.

Put it this way if they could get 4-5% in a savings account - like was common up to 2008 - there is no way they'd own a BTL flat. But as they want an income in retirement BTL is a sensible way of getting a BTL income.

Own fine home, secure, and 'massively against BTL' but put return on vast fortune of extra saving first, causing another renter, joining the BTLing surge and rocketing HPI+++ of last few years, in many areas.  Money money money about all else, knowing it is not very fair what they have done, with BTLism.  Did it anyway.

Some people would have stuck to their principles and been content with great homeownership, and fortunes in cash, rather leveraging up to become BTLers on other people, simply for more money.  

There are some BTLers who think purely on money, and seen their own homes HPI++++ and think the same, but they are not just BTLers for a day.   They get experience and if they can't sense they are a part of it, continue to take another home and the rent, it's all on them.  And it is certainly all on the BTLer if they run into future financial trouble.   

I await this HPC that some people being offering sympathy for while prices 50%, doubled and trebled again, with people like your BTL pals included.  BTLing to give their eldest child a home when reaching adulthood, was how I recall you post about it.   They can think, they know what they do, and have lots of opportunity to back out, taking the rent month on month, in Gen Rent created by them.

[BorrowToLeech]

29 minutes ago, Neverwhere said:

No - and it's also not me that said it!

Yeah, sorry. I knew that, but the quote system let me down. 

Anyway, thanks for confirming.

Edit: Oh, wait, your quote refers to bitcoin. I’m talking about being paid in champagne. I think that should also be declared. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by BorrowToLeech

[rantnrave]

Not sure if posted elsewhere?

Property Tribes Discussion - Does BTL deprive families of homes?

https://www.propertytribes.com/landlords-deprive-families-of-homes-t-127635126.html