The Urban Bully Boys... Cyclists

[porca misèria]

You'd think

That in an area with a network of good cycle tracks, cyclists could be banned from using the roads for H & S reasons, i.e. For their own good

You'd think

That in a country with a network of good motorways, motorists could be banned from using the roads for H & S reasons, i.e. For their own good

[ccc]

You are wrong. I didn't say it was MY dog not on a leash. In fact my greyhounds are never off the leash in anything but a fully enclosed field. So there.

Stop trying to skip around it. You are wrong - whether they are your dogs or not doesn't matter. You were having a go at cyclists for telling people to get their dogs on a leash on a cycle path. They are in the right - you are not. I have quoted you below just in case you are in any doubt.

PS - the inability to admit when wrong - is a sign of weakness and insecurity.

My thought exactly. I take my dog walking on a shared footpath/cycle track. I'm a bit wobbly on my feet sometimes but still they whizz past noiselessly from behind leaving me shaking in their wake. They shout at people whose dogs are not on their leads to get them under control. They cycle two abreast pushing walkers into the undergrowth. One day the dog walkers of Cowes will unleash their hounds on the bar-stewards. No thought for anyone but themselves.

[ccc]

There is: pedestrians have right of way. Ergo, they are never in the wrong. I think cyclists believe the same applies to them.

Incorrect - pedestrians only have the right of way if they have already started to cross.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

[Mrs Bear]

Lycra-brigade cyclists used to be a nightmare in Richmond Park. There is a perfectly good perimeter road, but I guess the 20 mph limit, largely on account of the deer, meant they preferred the path shared with pedestrians. They would belt along at top speed, expecting everyone else to get the hell out of their way, inc. old people, deaf people, old dogs, little kids on tricycles, etc. I used to loathe them. One bloke who lives near the gate told me he punched one and knocked him off his bike he nearly ran his dog over and then yelled abuse for not getting the dog out of his way. Dogs are not required to be on a lead in the park, except in a couple of enclosed areas. At least one dog has been killed by a cyclist in the park and given their supreme arrogance and selfishness it is remarkable that no small child was added to that.

There is now a long overdue 5 mph speed limit on that path, but of course some of them still think this does not apply to them. The path is also used by non-Lycra brigade leisure cyclists who have the courtesy to slow down for pedestrians and dogs.

I don't know what makes them behave like this. Mr B has a good road bike and uses it a lot, inc. right round the 2000 acre park twice in one session, but he would never behave they way they do.

[Compukit UK101]

Partly it's because we increasingly live in self-contained bubbles, with little or no interaction with the people around us.

Partly it's the ridiculous lower-middle-class snobbery of the British. The car, to the Briton, is more than just a vehicle - it is a status symbol indicating his or her position in the pecking order.

So if somebody travels by bicycle, he or she is at the absolute bottom of the pecking order. If you care about this then the only option you have is to try to gain status by having an expensive bicycle and lots of flashy equipment and also to ride aggressively and angrily to prove you are just as good as a person in a Range Rover.

Personally I don't give a stuff about any of that. I ride an old, but good quality bike, in normal clothes, and I try to treat all road users considerately. It's called 'slow cycling' or 'zen cycling'. It's just not worth it to get het up and aggressive when cycling - leave that to the car drivers.

+1. Agree about the Zen cycling. That's my philosophy too.

[Austin Allegro]

I cycle practically everywhere. There are nutty cyclists, and nutty walkers and nutty drivers. From car drivers accelerating through red lights as you are crossing, to mad cyclists trying to run you off the road because you over took them, to pedestrian muggers threatening to drown you in the canal after having stolen your bike. I've encountered all of them.

Like one of the previous posters said, the approach is go zen, but defensive, when cycling. Practically the only way in London's traffic. A cheery wave and nod of thanks to someone being considerate improves your day and theirs.

I guess the problem at the moment is that you have a lot of middle aged blokes who've spent most of their life driving a car trying to go as fast as they can to prove to themselves that they've still got it, while lacking experience and cycle sense.

Very true. I think it started in the 1980s. In the seventies cheap cars replaced bicycles for people who couldn't previously afford them, like factory workers. So the bike almost became obsolete as a form of transport. Bicycle manufacturers, in order to survive, started rebranding the bicycle as a sports item. Hence the saturation of mountain bikes in the late eighties, which are useless for on-road cycling. With that came special clothing for cycling, helmets etc, and aggressive urban cycling as shown by the new breed of urban bicycle courier. I am pretty sure that red light jumping in London started with cycle couriers - it certainly wasn't the norm when I started cycling in London in the early 80s. Fortunately the tide seems to be turning a bit, especially in the USA, where 'slow cycling' on the Netherlands/Scandinavian model is becoming more popular.

[happy_renting]

All we need to do is ban Lycra.

[Bloo Loo]

And you'd be mourning the loss of your NCB.

protected...and the speed he was going, id make the case for reckless cycling.

And keep your puppies under control for gaud sake.

[JustYield]

I am a driver, an occasional cyclist, a one-time jogger, a frequent walker and a born-again urban rollerblader!

In each guise other road and pavement users are a complete menace and seem determined to harm me. I deal with it by minimising my presence in their space - eliminating the intersection of our paths as much as possible. I do not assume right of way, except when I am a walker who is already crossing a road. I am aware of those around me. I'd probably enjoy being a traffic policeman, I'm that good at assessing the situation.

When you are engaged in an aerobic activity, you naturally are more alert and less forgiving of others - the adrenaline is pumping and you are quick to anger. This is why fast cyclists, in particular, are often so hot-headed. But runners too can get annoyed with the slowbees. All this drama can be avoided by giving each other space: so if there is a pinch point/bottleneck/narrowing of a path - for goodness sake slow down and smile!

[The Knimbies who say No]

I've recently renewed my lycra brigade membership. I also drive, run and walk regularly. Much of the cycling I do is on shared footways and national cycle network lanes, with the rest being on roads. I often have a baby in tow in a child trailer when cycling too. Hopefully I have some sort of balanced perspective (I do not own a dog however).

The cycle track I use mostly (N5) heads through Chester centre from me and out towards Wales. As you might expect, the sections of the path nearest the city centre are busiest with pedestrains, dog walkers and other cyclists (commuters and recreational). It is generally totally inappropriate to whizz along these sections unless you have a good clear view of a section you know has no junctions and back off in good time for upcoming junctions, which unless you are out very early doesn't happen often.

Junctions are by far the most dangerous parts of the tracks, especially with old railway infrastructure as you may get little warning if the view is obscured by e.g. a bridge support. In other places there are long on/off ramps similar to a motorway junction so you can see everything in good time.

The hairiest moments I have seen have been precipitated by cyclists who pull out of obscured junctions to join the main routes without looking anywhere. They tend to look like casual/commuter types on mountain bikes, FWIW. The lack of markings on the lanes (even a 'Give way' triangle or a dashed line across T junctions) doesn't help to get people to think about having a look around. I suspect that the people who do this and also drive a car are not the most observant motorists either. The vast majority of the dogwalkers I encounter are courteous and in control of their pets, whether or not the animals are on a lead.

I often eschew parallel cycle paths when on the roads for the simple reason that they can take ages to get anywhere since they involve (many) more junctions. You'll wait a long time waiting for a car to give way to you as a cyclist in general, even if you are vulnerable eg waiting to turn right in the centre of the road. Many of the people who advocate entirely separate systems are general recreational types and I'd love to hear their views about funding these separate networks to boot. Cyclists are perfectly entitled to use the road network and should do so. Weight of numbers can cause issues in some places of course but the same is true of cars, we are just normalized to car congestion and don't view it in the same light.

Many of the cycle lanes painted on roads are an invitation to disaster to boot, a couple near me.

The cycle lane ends about 10 yards before the lane split leaving very little time to get across (most people will be going in the right hand lane). The cycle lane should end much earlier to allow cycles to join the traffic flow and get across more safely:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.225062,-2.891664,3a,75y,91.38h,78.1t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdVZR5IwDDhZFcfKzzknoeQ!2e0

The partially segregated cycle lane here encourages bikes to move through independently of the motorized traffic on the right, but the cyclist heading straight over the junction may find a car turning left practically taking them out. Not clever design as it confuses priorities etc.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.220095,-2.880966,3a,75y,100.97h,80.39t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIdYiY5w_ZtxCa2ASc2DSjw!2e0

[SpectrumFX]

Incorrect - pedestrians only have the right of way if they have already started to cross.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

It's not your right of way either; whether you're a driver, motorcyclist, cyclist or horse rider.

"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident."

https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/overview

I read that as you should always avoid hitting pedestrians if at all possible. Which surely means that you should always give way to pedestrians?

It's worth remembering that it is entirely reasonable to expect a higher burden of responsibility from drivers than pedestrians as drivers are all supposed to be adults with good eyesight, with no know medical conditions that could be significantly impeding their faculties. The pedestrian you're expecting to get out of your way might be blind, or deaf, or suffer from some other sensory issue that means that you're expectation that they'll notice you and get out of your way may end up with a bump in your car and a dead pedestrian.

[frankief]

As you might expect, the sections of the path nearest the city centre are busiest with pedestrains, dog walkers and other cyclists (commuters and recreational). It is generally totally inappropriate to whizz along these sections unless you have a good clear view of a section you know has no junctions and back off in good time for upcoming junctions, which unless you are out very early doesn't happen often.

I think this is a good point - I have seen some horrific videos of reckless cyclists in congested city centres such as London, riding like they are leading out Mark Cavendish on the Champs Elysees. Even in cycling friendly cities in Europe it's not appropriate to ride like that, never mind in our over populated grid-locked cities.They must have a death wish.

On the other hand, I had a period of cycling when I couldn't run because of an injury - mostly in semi-urban, country roads but even this is risky. I gave up cycling and sold my road bike many years ago - the roads have just too many inconsiderate drivers and it was petrifying to be given six inches clearance by a speeding HGV. The cycling books tell you to impose your authority and occupy your section of the road with confidence, but I never had the nerve for it. OK if you are in a bunch on a club run but alone in the gutter can be stressfull. I was pleased when my injury cleared up and I got back to running in the woods and parks - just off road motorcyclists and bullterriers to dodge!

[MrPin]

It's official then! Lycra cyclists are worse than Hitler and paedos!

[Scunnered]

It's not your right of way either; whether you're a driver, motorcyclist, cyclist or horse rider.

"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident."

https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/overview

I read that as you should always avoid hitting pedestrians if at all possible. Which surely means that you should always give way to pedestrians?

I find that round here motorists generally turn off the main streets into side roads at high speeds, and certainly without giving way to any pedestrians who might be just about to cross the entrance to the side road. On a number of occasions I've had to leap out of the way when motorists have done this without signalling (and one particularly pleasant character screeehd to a halt, jumped out of his car and started shouting "I'M GOING TO BREAK YOUR F****** BACK, YOU C***" when I shouted "OI!" at him for doing this).

I've been observing my fellow pedestrians and most of them behave like hunted animals, coming to a halt and looking fearfully over their shoulders whenever they come to a side street. It really came home to me how I'd become conditioned to this when I was in the Netherlands a few years ago. I was walking through an area of housing and came to a side street. I automatically looked over my shoulder and saw a car approaching, signalling that it was just about to turn into the street I was approaching. I stopped and waited for the car to turn, but after a few seconds I realised that nothing was happening. I looked to my side, and the car had stopped in the main road and the driver was gesturing for me to cross! You could wait a million years in the UK without that happening. I've been there a number of times since, and you can easily spot the UK tourists: when they want to cross the road they stop and look around in a state of panic, while the locals just wander across without looking up from their phones. Mind you, you've got to keep an eye out for the bikes...

[Scunnered]

It's official then! Lycra cyclists are worse than Hitler and paedos!

Nothing wrong with Lycra, Pin! It's practical, comfortable, and stylish. Look!

Reminds me of the electricity meters we had in my childhood.

[ccc]

It's not your right of way either; whether you're a driver, motorcyclist, cyclist or horse rider.

"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident."

https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/overview

I read that as you should always avoid hitting pedestrians if at all possible. Which surely means that you should always give way to pedestrians?

It's worth remembering that it is entirely reasonable to expect a higher burden of responsibility from drivers than pedestrians as drivers are all supposed to be adults with good eyesight, with no know medical conditions that could be significantly impeding their faculties. The pedestrian you're expecting to get out of your way might be blind, or deaf, or suffer from some other sensory issue that means that you're expectation that they'll notice you and get out of your way may end up with a bump in your car and a dead pedestrian.

When did I say it was 'my right of way' ?

I responded to a post from someone stating that the pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way. That is incorrect.

[SpectrumFX]

I find that round here motorists generally turn off the main streets into side roads at high speeds, and certainly without giving way to any pedestrians who might be just about to cross the entrance to the side road. On a number of occasions I've had to leap out of the way when motorists have done this without signalling (and one particularly pleasant character screeehd to a halt, jumped out of his car and started shouting "I'M GOING TO BREAK YOUR F****** BACK, YOU C***" when I shouted "OI!" at him for doing this).

I've been observing my fellow pedestrians and most of them behave like hunted animals, coming to a halt and looking fearfully over their shoulders whenever they come to a side street. It really came home to me how I'd become conditioned to this when I was in the Netherlands a few years ago. I was walking through an area of housing and came to a side street. I automatically looked over my shoulder and saw a car approaching, signalling that it was just about to turn into the street I was approaching. I stopped and waited for the car to turn, but after a few seconds I realised that nothing was happening. I looked to my side, and the car had stopped in the main road and the driver was gesturing for me to cross! You could wait a million years in the UK without that happening. I've been there a number of times since, and you can easily spot the UK tourists: when they want to cross the road they stop and look around in a state of panic, while the locals just wander across without looking up from their phones. Mind you, you've got to keep an eye out for the bikes...

I think it's the result of an accidental indoctrination programme. When I was in school we were all programmed to believe that we had to look out for cars rather than the other way around.

Green Cross Code:

Now all those kids are grown up with the expectation that its pedestrians who need to be careful of their big scary car.

[MrPin]

Nothing wrong with Lycra, Pin! It's practical, comfortable, and stylish. Look!

Reminds me of the electricity meters we had in my childhood.

You see patterns! Are you a mathematician?

[The Knimbies who say No]

I think this is a good point - I have seen some horrific videos of reckless cyclists in congested city centres such as London, riding like they are leading out Mark Cavendish on the Champs Elysees. Even in cycling friendly cities in Europe it's not appropriate to ride like that, never mind in our over populated grid-locked cities.They must have a death wish.

On the other hand, I had a period of cycling when I couldn't run because of an injury - mostly in semi-urban, country roads but even this is risky. I gave up cycling and sold my road bike many years ago - the roads have just too many inconsiderate drivers and it was petrifying to be given six inches clearance by a speeding HGV. The cycling books tell you to impose your authority and occupy your section of the road with confidence, but I never had the nerve for it. OK if you are in a bunch on a club run but alone in the gutter can be stressfull. I was pleased when my injury cleared up and I got back to running in the woods and parks - just off road motorcyclists and bullterriers to dodge!

Unfortunately there are plenty of inconsiderate types in all walks of life. Seems a dead cert that you'll come a cropper eventually, and besides a near silent road bike appearing from nowhere can give people a fright. Very obnoxious behavior in a shared space.

As has been said by others, a smile and a wave and a nod of the head to acknowledge considerate behaviour goes a long way to showing some appreciation and hopefully create some badly-needed goodwill for cyclists.

Riding in a defensive but assertive manner can reduce some of the risks on the road, but all said and done if someone in a metal box really wants to get on top there's only one winner. I just try and anticipate upcoming risks and position myself in the traffic flow (if the speeds make it possible) to get an equal slot with a car, without obstructing anyone unduly. In slow moving traffic and/or approaching junctions this it usually not a problem, and much safer than sticking to the left(irrespective of cycle lanes present, I ignore them in these circumstances). A burst of power to get oneself into the traffic flow is often required. Once the traffic is more freeflowing then inevitably the best course is to move to the left to avoid becoming an unwarranted obstruction.

A lot of it depends on how fast you can cycle, the faster your capability the safer you'll be imo as it allows you to be in the traffic flow up to a higher speed. I can do about 20mph average for a couple of hours at present, sufficient to feel safe in most 30 zones without having to stick to the kerb. It relies on other motorists respecting the speed limits though, if they are generally going through a 30mph zone at 40mph, that changes the dynamic entirely to kerbhugging again.

Most drivers are fine though, I ought to say that.

[Scunnered]

I think it's the result of an accidental indoctrination programme. When I was in school we were all programmed to believe that we had to look out for cars rather than the other way around.

Now all those kids are grown up with the expectation that its pedestrians who need to be careful of their big scary car.

Indeed. There's a school of thought that Tufty was actually one of the great villains of our time: an enemy of children's freedom in the guise of a friendly cuddly squirrel.

[SpectrumFX]

When did I say it was 'my right of way' ?

I responded to a post from someone stating that the pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way. That is incorrect.

From a drivers or cyclists point of view they do, since the highway code obliges you to always give way if it can help to avoid an incident. Accepting that hitting a pedestrian would count as an "incident" then you should always give way if you believe that there is a possibility of hitting one.

Drive safe

[MrPin]

From a drivers or cyclists point of view they do, since the highway code obliges you to always give way if it can help to avoid an incident. Accepting that hitting a pedestrian would count as an "incident" then you should always give way if you believe that there is a possibility of hitting one.

Drive safe

Most of us do! We never remember the polite road users, only the bad ones! a polite wave or gesture will get you a nicer deal, than gobbing onto some convertible, because it's yellow!

[MrPin]

Can't say I notice too many runners causing bother - I think you are just picking out the odd few twats.

Runners are OK! They are rather busy running!

[SNACR]

You see patterns! Are you a mathematician?

One for the special powers thread.

[happy_renting]

Nothing wrong with Lycra, Pin! It's practical, comfortable, and stylish. Look!

Gosh, you can make out every detail of their helmets.