Daily Mail - Front Page - Public Pension Bill Rockets

[neilrich]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Today's Daily Mail front page.

The cost of funding state workers' retirement shall be £817billion or £30k per household!! This warning comes from The Institute of Economic Affairs and they say that the situation is getting worse by the week because of the growing number of people employed by the state - on wages increasing at almost twice the rate of inflation - and their higher life expectancy. Pensions for NHS staff, teachers and civil servants are paid for out of the promise of revenue from future taxpayers - basically taxes shall have to rise!

and... Goverment to bail out the Royal Mail pension fund to the tune of £2billion!

I'm shocked.....I new things were bad......but this is a desperate situation... this Country is DONALD DUCKED!! :angry:

[bottletop]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Today's Daily Mail front page.

The cost of funding state workers' retirement shall be £817billion or £30k per household!! This warning comes from The Institute of Economic Affairs and they say that the situation is getting worse by the week because of the growing number of people employed by the state - on wages increasing at almost twice the rate of inflation - and their higher life expectancy. Pensions for NHS staff, teachers and civil servants are paid for out of the promise of revenue from future taxpayers - basically taxes shall have to rise!

and... Goverment to bail out the Royal Mail pension fund to the tune of £2billion!

I'm shocked.....I new things were bad......but this is a desperate situation... this Country is DONALD DUCKED!! :angry:

Privatise the pensions liability. Then get the newly formed private pension organisation to assume all the country's £1.2 trillion debt as a pensions asset at no cost to the banks so they can start lending again from nothing.

We can then all delcare bankruptcy and walk away, leaving the public sector emplyees holding worthless pension guarantees. The entire country's personal debt written off, banks with no debts on the books, council tax slashed, and only a few upset council employees. Gotta be worth a shot.

Edited November 14, 2005 by bottletop

[brainclamp]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Today's Daily Mail front page.

The cost of funding state workers' retirement shall be £817billion or £30k per household!! This warning comes from The Institute of Economic Affairs and they say that the situation is getting worse by the week because of the growing number of people employed by the state - on wages increasing at almost twice the rate of inflation - and their higher life expectancy. Pensions for NHS staff, teachers and civil servants are paid for out of the promise of revenue from future taxpayers - basically taxes shall have to rise!

and... Goverment to bail out the Royal Mail pension fund to the tune of £2billion!

I'm shocked.....I new things were bad......but this is a desperate situation... this Country is DONALD DUCKED!! :angry:

I calculated the figure as about £26k per worker over thier working lifetime.

Roughly, thats about 1k per year index linked (so it goes up with inflation) over a 25 year median lifetime. Of course, not all workers fall into paying council taxes since the poll tax has gone. Therefore there also has to be a method of taxation independant of council taxes.

There is set to be a revaluation in council taxes - They are estimated to double again in the near future.

But, from 2008 ID cards and a population register will enable a larger tax burden to be enforced through social control, as both public and private sector workers will have to register with the state when they move, and many will also face fines of £2500 for not purchasing an ID card for this purpose.

The private sector worker, in addtion to falling real wages and greater job insecutiry through massive unlimited immigration, faces no pension rights till 75 or older.

If you consider the governments pension minister threatened 'strong language' on the public pension issue and then completely backed down within two days - landing taxpayers with an even higher bill. What do you think is going to happen with ID cards and taxes?

The private sector worker, in addtion to falling real wages and greater job insecutiry through massive unlimited immigration, faces no pension rights till 75 or older. What a disaster.

People have to unionise to recieve real wages which will allow them to buy a home and have a decent standard of living when they are arthirtic and frail. Corporate profits are being boosted through falling real wages, not rising productivity.

[Fudge]

People have to unionise to recieve real wages which will allow them to buy a home and have a decent standard of living when they are arthirtic and frail. Corporate profits are being boosted through falling real wages, not rising productivity.

Hasnt this always been the way, it isnt a coincidence that after the unions were crushed in the 1980s

the working classes wages are now being sqeezed until the pips squeak.

The majority of people in the public sector deserve a decent pension, they have paid into it, and are willing to fight to make sure they get it. Unlike the majority of the whiners in the private sector who dont have the balls to stand up for their own rights.

All those people who thought the miners and dockers got their cum uppence, now we are seeing what they were fighting for.

[bpw]

Let me correct you before you manage to delude someone else.

Public sector employees are, on the average, paid more than their counterparts in the private sector. An earlier posting suggested this reflected a difference in 'average skills', however with such a large number of employees I doubt this is true and it's clear to me that, and I quote, "burger flipper", deserves the same pay as someone doing menial administration in our bloated council offices. Even if the averages were the same the simple fact is that public and private sector employees should get pensions that reflect their contributions and not one penney more. I've said before this is the gravest threat to private sector employees in the UK today. Wake up is all I can say.Those of us not protected by public sector or Corprate pensions are being cheated and lied to so that, as a college of mine put it, the Hogs can squeel in delight at the pension fund trough.

I truely belive this makes the unfairness of Poll Tax look like a triffle by comparison and a growing number of the people I know are starting to realise it.

People have to unionise to recieve real wages which will allow them to buy a home and have a decent standard of living when they are arthirtic and frail. Corporate profits are being boosted through falling real wages, not rising productivity.

Hasnt this always been the way, it isnt a coincidence that after the unions were crushed in the 1980s

the working classes wages are now being sqeezed until the pips squeak.

The majority of people in the public sector deserve a decent pension, they have paid into it, and are willing to fight to make sure they get it. Unlike the majority of the whiners in the private sector who dont have the balls to stand up for their own rights.

All those people who thought the miners and dockers got their cum uppence, now we are seeing what they were fighting for.

[MarkG]

Let's face it: most of these people are never going to see the fat pensions they're dreaming of... the productive people of the country just won't pay for it once they realise that they're expected to slave away to keep government parasites in a nice confy retirement.

[mpd]

well I guess we all have the right to apply for public sector jobs! go for it!

Unfortunately I think all we have to look forward to in the private sector (unless we are board members or pals thereof) is inflationary pay rises at best. People will not 'unionise' because employers have successfully 'divided and conquered' - plus the fact people simply are mainly too apathetic to do anything, and too scared about their job security.

Also the rise of the economies of places such as China and India will ensure that western employers will have to cut costs to the bone to be competitive - or at least, that's what they'll tell you as they announce record profits and record director bonuses.

[Tempest]

Let's face it: most of these people are never going to see the fat pensions they're dreaming of... the productive people of the country just won't pay for it once they realise that they're expected to slave away to keep government parasites in a nice confy retirement.

I would like to agree with you - and yes it is the workers who pay and who will vote with their feet if things get too painful (this generation already have less fear about working abroad for ever) - but as the workforce ages and retires this army of public sector employees will become the voting pensioner and there will be nearly twice as many of them in 20 yrs. They are hardly going to play turkeys voting for xmas.

One government or other is going to have to either (i) fall on its sword by forcing through an unpopular measure to keep the country healthy (ie serious public sector pension reform) or (ii) find a genius solution which noone has though of yet.

My solution has yet to gain credence - the reverse windfall tax - basically the bloated public sector pension funds donate a proportion of their assets back to the country on the basis that it represents far and above what the worker was generally entitled to for their short career. Only joking. Partially.

For my part I will be educating my children on what to expect and encouraging them to look globally for their employment and financial security if they don't like what they see here.

[MarkG]

They are hardly going to play turkeys voting for xmas.

Doesn't matter. If the slaves in the private sector decide it's not worth working when most of their money goes to the government, there'll be nothing to pay them with.

The simple reality is that Western welfare states are unaffordable and will collapse under their own weight in the next couple of decades. Blair's pension promises to current government employees will be as valuable as the USSR's promises to pay pensions before it collapse.

Edited November 14, 2005 by MarkG

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

Other articles in The Mail today.

Debt problems piling up for younger women.

Indian call centres lure UK graduates.

1.5 million queue for council homes

[Loftus Road]

I could have sworn I read about all of those in the Sundays.

Cracking paper the Mail

[Fudge]

Let me correct you before you manage to delude someone else.

Thank you, I knew someone would.

Public sector employees are, on the average, paid more than their counterparts in the private sector.

Rubbish, the public sector has always paid lower than in the private sector, I started work in the public sector

8 years ago, it was paid lower then and is paid lower now. People go into the public sector for a few years to

get experiance in a job then if they can they move into the private sector where the money is, I have personaly known people who have left not because they are unhappy but because they could just not

afford to stay. And of course the private sector get skilled people they have never had to train.

I didnt see the private sector up in arms about the disparity in pay to their advantage over all these years.

An earlier posting suggested this reflected a difference in 'average skills', however with such a large number of employees I doubt this is true and it's clear to me that, and I quote, "burger flipper", deserves the same pay as someone doing menial administration in our bloated council offices. Even if the averages were the same the simple fact is that public and private sector employees should get pensions that reflect their contributions and not one penney more. I've said before this is the gravest threat to private sector employees in the UK today. Wake up is all I can say.Those of us not protected by public sector or Corprate pensions are being cheated and lied to so that, as a college of mine put it, the Hogs can squeel in delight at the pension fund trough.

Of course everyone should get a decent pension.

Gravest danger to private sector employees are the private sector employers. Get in a union, fight for your rights, dont try and sabotage other people pensions to make you feel better in your compliance to the bosses.

I truely belive this makes the unfairness of Poll Tax look like a triffle by comparison and a growing number of the people I know are starting to realise it.

You people did f@ck all about the poll tax , and you`ll do f@ck all about this. Do you know why.

If you cant do something with a cup off coffee in your hand you wont do it at all!

You sat and watched on the telly the militant fighting the battles for you, and now looking around to see whos gonna fight for you this time.

[Guest Guy_Montag]

I've been working in the public sector 8 years, when I started all the low paid staff were public sector, now they are all subcontracted. Net result public sector pay "rises", private sector pay "drops". I know it's been said before but it must make an impact.

[jackalope]

Of all of NuLab's recent calumny and mendacity the surrender on public sector pensions was the worst. Something has to happen, as due to the demographics of the population, it will just be physically impossible to extract enough taxes from the few poor saps left in real jobs to pay for it.

[OLDFTB]

I'm a public sector worker so.......pay up you lot and stop whinging!

[MarkG]

dont try and sabotage other people pensions to make you feel better in your compliance to the bosses.

Slight problem: those public sector pensions are stolen from my pay-packet... so I'm definitely going to try to 'sabotage' those who think they have every right to a fat pension at my expense, particularly when the high taxes required to pay for them are one of the main reasons why I can't afford a stinking fat pension of my own.

But, again, the debate is academic: the promises for public sector pensions are unaffordable, and reality will win no matter what the government employees want.

[Fudge]

Of all of NuLab's recent calumny and mendacity the surrender on public sector pensions was the worst. Something has to happen, as due to the demographics of the population, it will just be physically impossible to extract enough taxes from the few poor saps left in real jobs to pay for it.

Why dont you all you start businesses? and get some economic growth going.

All you alpha males and king of the jungle types are not living upto the hype.

Go and drill for oil, harvest some cocoa beans or mine for gold.

Truth is you cant, apart from a few small niche markets, the super rich have got the market in their back

pockets.

[jackalope]

But, again, the debate is academic: the promises for public sector pensions are unaffordable, and reality will win no matter what the government employees want.

Agreed. Anybody in a public sector job and more than about 15 years to go to retirement is dreaming if they think they are going to get their full pension.

[Fudge]

Slight problem: those public sector pensions are stolen from my pay-packet... so I'm definitely going to try to 'sabotage' those who think they have every right to a fat pension at my expense, particularly when the high taxes required to pay for them are one of the main reasons why I can't afford a stinking fat pension of my own.

But, again, the debate is academic: the promises for public sector pensions are unaffordable, and reality will win no matter what the government employees want.

I get paid less than I would in the private sector for the type of job I do. One of the reasons I have stayed is because of the pension as its the only real benefit we get. We dont get overtime pay, we dont get bonuses

or christmas parties etc. I pay into my public pension every month. And I also pay taxes.

I bet at the end of the day I dont even get back equal to what I paid in.

I dont try and justify the high paid non jobs which are as some have said tax abuse, but the vast majority in the public sector dont get paid very well at all, in fact some of the lowest paid jobs in the country are in the public sector.

But just because a certain section of the workforce stood by why their pensions where ransacked by the

super rich, they then want to make sure others who didnt have the benefit of high wages in the first place, to

have their pensions taken away is pathetic.

Like I said earlier, I didnt hear the private sector kicking up about getting paid significantly higher wages

than the public in the past, you have made your money and run up your debts and lived your fancy

lifestyles in the boom times and now a recession looms and the parties over you are worried about your

jobs, because you know your employers are bastards and will lay you off before they lose any profits.

Thats capitalism for you, you wanted it you got it. Good luck!

[bottletop]

I pay into my public pension every month. And I also pay taxes.

I bet at the end of the day I dont even get back equal to what I paid in.

You say "I pay into my public pension every month"...

where does that money you get come from to pay into your pension? The govt. Where does the govt get that money from? The private sector. All the taxes you pay are simply shuffling money from the govt to you in salary, then back to the govt in taxes, then on to the next public employee in salary, then back to the govt as NI contributions, and into your pension pot. But where did it come from?

[Starcrossed]

I work in local government and can understand the tone of this thread but I would like make one thing clear. The recent deal did not apply to local government employees - it only applied to civil servants and (I think) education and health service staff (someone correct me if I am wrong on those two)

Local government employees will be dealt with separately. So 'divide and rule' works across more than just the public/private divide.

Whatever, this will become an issue for a possible future Tory government just like the Miner's strike was and the government would be bound to win it.

So I don't hold much store for the future of my 'fantastic' public sector pension.

Why do you think I am on HPC?

To help me achieve financial independence.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Starcrossed

[Guest horace]

Has any one else noticed, when reading `the Mail`, that stories (for that`s what they are)

regularly state "Last night it was revealed" ?

I counted 39 "Last night it was revealed" in one edition on their Saturday edition.

Could it be that the Hacks are too piss poor to devise something more original to fill up column inches?

Next time you peruse this awful publication look out for "it was revealed last night"

horace

it was revealed last night.

[jackalope]

Why dont you all you start businesses? and get some economic growth going.

I've run my own business for the past 6 years and now have 15 employees.

The money you 'pay' (it's all government money anyway) doesn't go to pay your pension it pays the pensions of the people who are already retired. When you retire it'll be up to the people in jobs to pay your pension then. With much more public employees earning higher wages (and having therefore higher pension entitlements) and living longer surely you can see that it's just impossible. Where will the money come from?

As Ayn Rand so perceptively pointed out; at some point Atlas will shrug and put down his burden.

Edited November 14, 2005 by jackalope

[Tempest]

I get paid less than I would in the private sector for the type of job I do. One of the reasons I have stayed is because of the pension as its the only real benefit we get. We dont get overtime pay, we dont get bonuses

or christmas parties etc. I pay into my public pension every month. And I also pay taxes.

I bet at the end of the day I dont even get back equal to what I paid in.

I dont try and justify the high paid non jobs which are as some have said tax abuse, but the vast majority in the public sector dont get paid very well at all, in fact some of the lowest paid jobs in the country are in the public sector.

But just because a certain section of the workforce stood by why their pensions where ransacked by the

super rich, they then want to make sure others who didnt have the benefit of high wages in the first place, to

have their pensions taken away is pathetic.

Like I said earlier, I didnt hear the private sector kicking up about getting paid significantly higher wages

than the public in the past, you have made your money and run up your debts and lived your fancy

lifestyles in the boom times and now a recession looms and the parties over you are worried about your

jobs, because you know your employers are bastards and will lay you off before they lose any profits.

Thats capitalism for you, you wanted it you got it. Good luck!

Higher pay came with (and should still reflect!) higher risk - risk of unemployment, relocation, company collapse etc. These days the differential has narrowed so as to distort the relative risk/reward ratio and pensions is the cream on top.

Your attitude displayed in these postings appears typically polemic and naive and gives the public sector a bad name. Why are employers bastards because they lay people off in the name of profitability/money? If you personally can't afford to do something you don't do it - same principle. If a company employing thousands of people will not remain profitable because it has too many staff or has too much production capacity (eg no-one buying it's kit - remember Rover group?) then it endangers the liveilhoods and employment of all the employees not to take action to remedy things. I am afraid that is how the real world works. The public sector does not need to consider these things - the solution is to throw more people/money at the problem or leave unproductive areas to stagnate (but well funded). That is not a criticism, it just is what it is and the nature of the beast. No-one is saying that many/most public sector workers are not highly valued. But it doesn't mean it should be allowed to balloon out of proportion to its cost, productivity and optimum need and risk dragging the rest of the country back. The fact that you don't know why the private sector was not, and has not been, "up in arms" about any disparity in wages/conditions for over 25 years until now shows your lack of understanding of the broad picture and the risks I refer to above from which you are insulated.

It always strikes me as amazing that certain public sector workers (and certain private sector workers with the same hidebound ideologies) lambast profitable private sector companies - they pay the tax that supports you. You are employed by a govt of a country with a broadly capitalist economy and its takes taxes from those private sector earners and businesses to pay for its public sector salaries.

Your "union/militant/private sector employers" diatribe is hackneyed and cliched and a couple of decades out of date. Anyone with the long term prosperity and health of the nation should want a strong and productive economy irrespective of their own public sector/private sector employment and political hue - some objective, considered analysis of the situation as to whether the balance and direction is right or sustainable would be nice.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Tempest

[Marina]

I calculated the figure as about £26k per worker over thier working lifetime.

Roughly, thats about 1k per year index linked (so it goes up with inflation) over a 25 year median lifetime. Of course, not all workers fall into paying council taxes since the poll tax has gone. Therefore there also has to be a method of taxation independant of council taxes.

There is set to be a revaluation in council taxes - They are estimated to double again in the near future.

But, from 2008 ID cards and a population register will enable a larger tax burden to be enforced through social control, as both public and private sector workers will have to register with the state when they move, and many will also face fines of £2500 for not purchasing an ID card for this purpose.

The private sector worker, in addtion to falling real wages and greater job insecutiry through massive unlimited immigration, faces no pension rights till 75 or older.

If you consider the governments pension minister threatened 'strong language' on the public pension issue and then completely backed down within two days - landing taxpayers with an even higher bill. What do you think is going to happen with ID cards and taxes?

The private sector worker, in addtion to falling real wages and greater job insecutiry through massive unlimited immigration, faces no pension rights till 75 or older. What a disaster.

People have to unionise to recieve real wages which will allow them to buy a home and have a decent standard of living when they are arthirtic and frail. Corporate profits are being boosted through falling real wages, not rising productivity.

Aren't you a property bull? Apologies if I am mixing you up with someone else.

How are house prices going to keep going up if 'corporate profits are being boosted through falling real wages'?