Game_Over Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So living within our means = serfdom? More chance of your banking buddies getting lynched imo. Living within our means means Governments not giving ANYONE something for nothing including bankers. I would quite happily end free money for bankers the only reason governments continue with this is because if they didn't, it would mean the end of free money for everyone. Why don't the Greek people want to default??????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I'm actually begining to think that you really do believe all this $hit. The ideas you believe in were tested to destruction in the 20th Century. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as Hell isn't ideas that have failed over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 If you don't eliminate deficitsyou can never eliminate debt simple as that. As I said previously, anyone can default but what moral obligation does anyone then have to lend them money in the future? People don't lend money from a sense of moral obligation- they lend money to make a profit. It's not that certain that a defaulting nation would be shut out of lending for that long either- after all- if you have no national debt in a world of debt encumbered nations you might look like a good risk! Iceland seems to prove the counterfactual- it's doing ok since it declined the bankers offer to pay all their debts for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 People don't lend money from a sense of moral obligation- they lend money to make a profit. It's not that certain that a defaulting nation would be shut out of lending for that long either- after all- if you have no national debt in a world of debt encumbered nations you might look like a good risk! Iceland seems to prove the counterfactual- it's doing ok since it declined the bankers offer to pay all their debts for them. Iceland has a minuscule population and loads of fish they were rich before the boom, unlike Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Clearly investors will eventually lend to countries that have defaulted but only after the consequences have played out. No one in Greece wants to default because that would mean austerity far worse than they are facing now What they want is free money and they think they have the EU over a barrel Either way it isn't ging to end well anyone who understood anything knew that the Euro was doomed from day 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Iceland has a minuscule population and loads of fish they were rich before the boom, unlike Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Clearly investors will eventually lend to countries that have defaulted but only after the consequences have played out. No one in Greece wants to default because that would mean austerity far worse than they are facing now What they want is free money and they think they have the EU over a barrel Either way it isn't ging to end well anyone who understood anything knew that the Euro was doomed from day 1 anyone who knew anything about the present euro-dream knew it would be a fight to the death between two factions. the barroso- soviet gulag v 2.0 version.....everybody is equal,except themselves of course, and... the van rompuoy...holy roman empire under charlemagne 2.0 and the pope as ecumenical enforcer. either way democracy and basic rights and liberties will be thrown under the bus.And it's really about time the rest of the EU countries were made aware that these are the two options available to them,unless they start playing hardball and DEMAND their rights back,under financial and/or military penalty. neither of which are acceptable to britain,it's only our politicians that that are easily bribed. Edited October 12, 2012 by oracle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 When I see the horrific statistics from some of the EURO countries like Spain.. with like 50% unemployment among young adult men.. it is like some banana republic. It is a tremendous failure of leadership to not even have jobs for them. An analogy I would give is that Weimar Germany failed on a basic human level. Your average man could nto get a job to support a family with. Hed be lucky to get a job to support himself on. In just 4 years under Hitler, Germany went from Europe's poorest nation, to its richest. Hitler did it by skipping the middle man of the bankers and simply putting everyone to work. Spain and other nations could have full employment by Christmas if the will was there. But the current people occupying the leadership positions in Europe just aren't the right people. When you have people trying to make a bunch of people happy and not offend anyone that is not leadership. Leadership is telling people what to do.. what their role is, what you expect of them. To tell young men and women that actually there is no job for them, that is a historic failure of leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feed Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 When I see the horrific statistics from some of the EURO countries like Spain.. with like 50% unemployment among young adult men.. it is like some banana republic. It is a tremendous failure of leadership to not even have jobs for them. And just what are they going to do? Dig holes and fill them again. Or may they should build a few more apartments. 50% youth unemployment is the new normal. And it’s the failure to understand this that’s the problem. Terrifying, unacceptable and completely predictable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 And just what are they going to do? Dig holes and fill them again. Unless Spain has been transformed into a utopia since my last visit in 2008, I'm sure there are plenty of irrigation systems, power stations and hospitals to build or repair. Or may they should build a few more apartments. No, that's what happens when capital is misallocated by private banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feed Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Unless Spain has been transformed into a utopia since my last visit in 2008, I'm sure there are plenty of irrigation systems, power stations and hospitals to build or repair. Maintenance and repair of existing infrastructure and investment in additional infrastructure, sure why not. But just how many people do you think this will employ. Even if you tax the wealthy to absolute poverty and spend every $ on infrastructure, what will this achieve. This issue is structural and you’re answering the wrong question. The question should not be; how do we get everyone working again? The question should be; what do we do now that there is no need for everyone to work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The question should be; what do we do now that there is no need for everyone to work? In the long-term yes, as various debates on HPC have highlighted, increasing automation will have long-term negative effects on the employment market and mean we require fewer human hours worked. Encouraging part time work (via tax regime changes) so that a greater number of people can work would be a good start, but I don't think automation is the cause of the problem in Spain. It didn't look like an country that was more automated than say, Germany, or the UK in 2008, so there is still likely to be plenty of useful things that need to be done but that cannot be done by machines. I constantly read about the demographic timebomb, etc, etc. so how about using young people to help build and staff care homes for the elderly, somewhere cheap for them to retire to, in the same vein as UK "sheltered accomodation" and perhaps partly offered in exhange for them vacating their homes and / or jobs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The question should be; what do we do now that there is no need for everyone to work? Have a cull war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Have a cull war? Thing is, we are always being told we have a shortage of people - hence the need for immigration. Unless someone is going to try and convince me that our (and Spain's) young people couldn't do 99.999% of these jobs if they were trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feed Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In the long-term yes, as various debates on HPC have highlighted, increasing automation will have long-term negative effects on the employment market and mean we require fewer human hours worked. Encouraging part time work (via tax regime changes) so that a greater number of people can work would be a good start, but I don't think automation is the cause of the problem in Spain. It didn't look like an country that was more automated than say, Germany, or the UK in 2008, so there is still likely to be plenty of useful things that need to be done but that cannot be done by machines. I constantly read about the demographic timebomb, etc, etc. so how about using young people to help build and staff care homes for the elderly, somewhere cheap for them to retire to, in the same vein as UK "sheltered accomodation" and perhaps partly offered in exhange for them vacating their homes and / or jobs? If there are still useful things that cannot be done by machines, why are they not being done? The reduction of individual work and a more even distribution of meaningful work, I agree with completely. But we need this now. This isn’t a long term issue. It’s here. But whilst people continue to follow the ideology of everyone must work and that unemployment and joblessness is unacceptable there can be no meaningful discussion on how we adapt to a completely different way of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 If there are still useful things that cannot be done by machines, why are they not being done? Are you from the future... you answered your own question earlier! "Or may they should build a few more apartments." <- All the money went to banks criminals that sprited it away and now it's sitting in offshore bank accounts. What was left behind was debt for the youngsters to pay over the course of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feed Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Are you from the future... you answered your own question earlier! "Or may they should build a few more apartments." <- All the money went to banks criminals that sprited it away and now it's sitting in offshore bank accounts. What was left behind was debt for the youngsters to pay over the course of their lives. Yes I’m a robot overlord from the future. But seriously, “useful things” I agree there’s lots of meaningless work that can be made up, just to keep people busy. But, as you said, its misallocation / malinvestment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 But whilst people continue to follow the ideology of everyone must work and that unemployment and joblessness is unacceptable there can be no meaningful discussion on how we adapt to a completely different way of life. What we have is a contradiction between our social values and our economic imperatives- we demand that everyone work for moral reasons while at the same time doing all we can to eliminate their jobs in order to improve our economic efficiency. As a result we end up with politicians who make weird claims that-somehow- by improving productivity we will create more jobs- which is a logically absurd statement- after all the whole point of being more productive is to do more with less people. So more productivity means less jobs- not more. The free market can do may things- but what it can't do is solve a problem that is created by it's own imperative to seek maximum output for the lowest input. And you can't blame the capitalist for this- he is doing exactly what the system demands that he do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What we have is a contradiction between our social values and our economic imperatives- we demand that everyone work for moral reasons while at the same time doing all we can to eliminate their jobs in order to improve our economic efficiency. As a result we end up with politicians who make weird claims that-somehow- by improving productivity we will create more jobs- which is a logically absurd statement- after all the whole point of being more productive is to do more with less people. So more productivity means less jobs- not more. The free market can do may things- but what it can't do is solve a problem that is created by it's own imperative to seek maximum output for the lowest input. And you can't blame the capitalist for this- he is doing exactly what the system demands that he do. Very eloquently put, but has Spain ascended to a level of productivity that is so far above Japan, Germany and the USA that they can be as productive with 46% of their young people not working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frederico Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Very eloquently put, but has Spain ascended to a level of productivity that is so far above Japan, Germany and the USA that they can be as productive with 46% of their young people not working? Of course not, all this stuff about greater productivity, more leisure time etc is rubbish. Everyone must work to have a coherent society, Greater productivity= lower wages, longer hours, diabolical working conditions and zero rights. Wow that's progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Of course not, all this stuff about greater productivity, more leisure time etc is rubbish. Everyone must work to have a coherent society, But the nature of what constitutes work depends on the capacity of the economy to be productive. If you went back in time 100 years and describes the job of, say, a Social Media Consultant, do you think they would have regarded that as 'work'? Needless to say, in an economy where every effort is spent producing enough food to eat, the skills of such a person would not have any value at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workhou Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What I don't understand is: if they are so for a European Union, why don't they just build a fortress around Europe and stop importing products/economic immigrants from outside the union!? I am no supporter of the EU but surely we have enough needs, labour and materials to be self-sustaining and if we don't what is the actual benefit of the European Union? I don't believe what it has become was what it was intended to be. It can't function as it was intended in a globalised world. Bring the outsourced manufacturing back from the far east and you have jobs for loads of unemployed Europeans. The Asians whack loads of tariffs on foreign products so tit for tat. The problems we face won't be solved until the rest of the world has the same wages and working conditions as Europe. Can't see this changing any time soon, don't most East Asian countries purposefully keep their currencies devalued? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What I don't understand is: if they are so for a European Union, why don't they just build a fortress around Europe and stop importing products/economic immigrants from outside the union!? I am no supporter of the EU but surely we have enough needs, labour and materials to be self-sustaining and if we don't what is the actual benefit of the European Union? I don't believe what it has become was what it was intended to be. It can't function as it was intended in a globalised world. Bring the outsourced manufacturing back from the far east and you have jobs for loads of unemployed Europeans. The Asians whack loads of tariffs on foreign products so tit for tat. The problems we face won't be solved until the rest of the world has the same wages and working conditions as Europe. Can't see this changing any time soon, don't most East Asian countries purposefully keep their currencies devalued? The elites in Europe have the same contempt for the 'plebs' as those in the UK and US- so protecting the living standards of their own people was not the point- access to cheap labour was the point. What the morons did not seem to forsee however is that cheap labour and high unemployment means lower demand- hence their current problems- how to continue to shaft their own populations without killing the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The elites in Europe have the same contempt for the 'plebs' as those in the UK and US- so protecting the living standards of their own people was not the point- access to cheap labour was the point. What the morons did not seem to forsee however is that cheap labour and high unemployment means lower demand- hence their current problems- how to continue to shaft their own populations without killing the economy. aka spreading the spoils ever more thinly over more and more slices of bread.... yet apparently if you don't agree with the Neo Libs, you are by defination a socialist!!?!? You have to laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmarks Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Is that because these people might start lynching bankers? Why would investors create jobs when they can get risk free profit through clever arbitrages? If we want to create work we need to kill the money machines skimming off the top. A thing of beauty, ain't it? http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ax50.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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