fluffy666 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 That's because there's not a proper free market thanks to government messing around with it you know. Free markets are perfect and it's always interference that produces disastrous results. Of course, a true intellectual would know that Communism is perfect, unless interfered with by reactionary capitalists or 'wreckers', who just need a bit of 're-education'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) You're all sliding into the (non-elected) Politician cess pit of maximum upset whilst they install their NWO Remember all the data "Privacy" laws they promised (if we accept it) Shortly after, our bent, fraudulant bankers were allowed to share all our private data and spending habits between themselves - whilst creating the biggest heists in the history of the World behind their secretive locked doors (allowed by our beloved Govt) Now Police sell the recorded data to the Media Few years later Over a thousand "Council workers in non-jobs" (think "Common Purpose" one of their underhand projects) were given access to ALL your private data - without seeking court permission - for as little as leaving your rubbish bin too full Now we are subjected to having all our emails, telephone calls, mobile calls and anything you write on the web recorded for the Orwellian State Snoops - against the data act and true freedom of speech "Nothing happens in Parliament without being pre-planned" A certain amount of member Wolves of a Cult - hate you and cause maximum stress on the flock! Who do they think they are - Yorkies? (Remember the Nazi + Stalin States recorded everything - obsessively!) Exactly what they are installing bit by bit - slowly boil the froggies Edited February 21, 2012 by erranta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChumpusRex Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Plus Harold Shipman was a Doctor under the state system, explain that in your pantomime thinking. The problem here is that Shipman was a very devious, very cunning and very intelligent psychopath. In the light of the enquiry into his killing spree, there have been considerable reforms made into the way that doctors are regulated, with regular complex, expensive, invasive and time-consuming "revalidation and re-licensing". The irony is, that had this system been in place when Shipman was active, it would neither have detected him, nor stopped him. [This is similar to the way in which CRB checks were introduced following the Soham murders - but had CRB checks existed at that time, they would not have detected Huntley, nor stopped him] By commonly used measures, Shipman appeared to be an excellent doctor. He was kind and sympathetic, listened to patients, knowledgeable, regularly studied and ensured he kept up to date, was a regular reader of scientific journals, an excellent teacher of students and lecturer, was always apparently conscientious, seeking advice for difficult cases, and encouraging similar educational activities among his colleagues. He had regular appraisals, and had a spotless record of always achieving his educational and professional goals. Among his patients, he was almost universally liked. It was precisely because popular and professional opinion of him placed him almost beyond reproach, that his murderous tendencies went undetected for such a long time. The type of system such a person works in, whether private or public, doesn't matter. They will find a way to do what they want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Coates Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I don't think we're at that point yet (I'm not talking about drip-feed measures to involve more private companies). Apart from anything, public opinion is still far too attached to the government run NHS. But at some point it must be very tempting to sell the right to run a PCT, and tell the new private operator "we will still subsidise you, the same way we do the train companies, but you will be able to keep any money you make through efficiencies, extra charges for foreign patients or for bed & board charges etc." Do you see this happening anytime soon? Sadly I think it's inevitable within 10 years or so. As a person of 50 plus it became obvious to me that from about 1980 onwards there has been a plan to change healthcare access in the uk. The plan has been to allow money to be made in large quantities by people external to NHS. Since about 1980 the NHS has been under a major attack to obtain this privatised goal. Not for any reason but to make a huge sum of money from many, for a microscopic few. The money being made for the owners of the farmcucital industries in USA will not stop change in the UK to get the same model of profit for the few owners in the uk. The only reason it has and is taking so long is the sheer professionalism and social stake most workers, surgeons, nurses, doctors, cleaners etc had and have, historically in the past and now going forward. All those that have passed in that time contributed and should be celebrated for delaying the final solution to the uk NHS. For all those now in the NHS including the new should be thanked for their efforts to keep this genuine WW2 flagship going. The people of the uk sacrificed to get this service and just because that ww2/50's generation is leaving should not be the reason to to now further enslave their children. Rant over. No idea why i care. I've left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 So, how would that work with 1 in 1000 side effects? If there was sufficient demand for kite-marks and quality assurances manufactures would put their product through this. I suspect there would be, car buyers demand a high level of safety assurance and thus why manufactures go well beyond legal requirements. Its also possible people would not value this and choose to use cheaper products with a lower standard of quality assurance as already happens everywhere in the non-western world. The point being in a free market people get to choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Lifting restrictions on who can buy drugs - you will end up with anecdotes of people killing themselves followed by screams that something must be done. It is a fair libertarian stance to take though. People kill themselves with many things they can buy now, alcohol and cigarettes being two good ones, but also everything from step ladders to motorbikes. And in a free market there IS something that can be done. YOU can choose not to buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Medicine is a huge problem for the dogmatic free-marketeers - and as with most problems they just ignore it. No. But as usual we have a lefty making up their own version of what free-marketeers think, and then attacking them for it. As absolutely bloody always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 But the free market model has no solution to problems like schizophrenia or Alzheimer's, where the sufferer either doesn't know they're ill &/or refuses to accept that they are, and which cause progressive problems for years, with no defineable end point. A truly free market depends on everyone being able to exercise an informed choice and having the mental capacity to do so. One of the paradoxes of some illnesses is that the nature of the problem fundamentally alters the sufferer's ability to make the choices necessary to deal with that problem. In a society where all responsibility has been taken away from the people and given to the state you tend to loose the free structures that the state has dis-empowered. What we used to have in this country, and they still have in the non-western world are things like families and communities who address the problems you raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdman Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 People kill themselves with many things they can buy now, alcohol and cigarettes being two good ones, but also everything from step ladders to motorbikes. And in a free market there IS something that can be done. YOU can choose not to buy it. Not talking about those with suicidal intent, rather those with the honest intent to treat themselves and getting it lethally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm not sure why I am bothering to answer all these points. I know all the socialists are just going to carry on dreaming up a fantasy version of what they think I must believe in and then attack those strawmen instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Not talking about those with suicidal intent, rather those with the honest intent to treat themselves and getting it lethally wrong. Lets say one of the big drug companies brought out products that killed people. How long do you think they would remain a big drug company? How often to Apple or Dell bring out products that electrocute people? Reputation, brand image and repeat sales are far more important in a free society than a statist one. Does the NHS care about the people it fails, those who die needlessly ? Does it modify its behavior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britney's Piers Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The NHS is a fairly unusual healthcare system even among state-funded healthcare systems. France spends even more on healthcare but you do get more of a first-rate service with far better outcomes. But anyone arguing for a US-style system is a loon. That's just a way for corporations to fleece people while leaving millions without care. A perfectly normal American child WITH access to good healthcare will often get dragged to umpteen 'specialists' for the tiniest little 'potential problems' just to make big money. Also, people are wise to privatisations now. Buses and trains too expensive to use. Gas and electricity companies fleecing you. Water companies that just crank up bills rather than fix massive leaks to make easy money. Even quite liberal/conservative people admit that natural monopolies and fundamental infrastructure were better off in state hands, Well the problem is with the practice of medicine itself, not is how it is organized. The vested interest is in keeping people dependent on the system, how the money actually gets from A to B is academic, whether via government or via private insurance it still ends up in the same pockets at the end. I was diagnosed with IBS by a GP, given three ineffectual prescriptive medicines for 6.50 each per month FOR LIFE. Personal research led me to a few simple diet changes plus a calcium+vitamin D supplement, cost to me 0.019 pence per day, problem solved completely. Modern medicine = keeping people just sick enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 No. But as usual we have a lefty making up their own version of what free-marketeers think, and then attacking them for it. As absolutely bloody always. Of course. So... you'll explain why the points I raised were wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Of course. So... you'll explain why the points I raised were wrong? Try scrolling up. It does not matter what i say to you, or your socialist consorts, you could never be reasoned out of your position because you used no reason in getting there in the first place. But other readers of this thread will see the logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Does the NHS care about the people it fails, those who die needlessly ? Does it modify its behavior? Yes, it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yes, it does. So why do our survival rates remain so low for so many years? Why do socialists not give too hoots about those needless deaths, so long as 'the system' conforms to their ideological ideals. Free marketeers value human life, and what helps them above narrow ideology. But then again socialism does not exactly have a low mortality rate in pursuit of its unattainable goals. Truly an evil way of thinking that puts conformity ahead of human lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie The Tramp Returns Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 God Bless the NHS and long may it reign. PERIOD. So why do our survival rates remain so low for so many years? Why do socialists not give too hoots about those needless deaths, so long as 'the system' conforms to their ideological ideals. Free marketeers value human life, and what helps them above narrow ideology. But then again socialism does not exactly have a low mortality rate in pursuit of its unattainable goals. Truly an evil way of thinking that puts conformity ahead of human lives. What a load of Love Grenades, the mind boggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleverBear Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ignorance used to be something to be ashamed of.....read up on it, this stuff is important. I have read it and it will pretty much destroy one of the best things we have in this country - crony capitalism at its worst. Yeh but have you read all the papers. If not and your reading is in newspapers then you know nothing about it. You have to read primary sources of data. You have to read the papers and read the bill and understand how the health system works. Not many people in the uk can do this or have done this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGaz Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 God Bless the NHS and long may it reign. PERIOD. x a million! Having been fleeced by the US system for very nearly every penny I had, I really do not want that system here, we are better than that. I can only assume that those who champion that type of system have never had to either use it or see the effects of it on those unfortunate enough not to be able to afford the insurance premiums. My father was diagnosed with potentially fatal stomach cancer, within a week he had had an experimental procedure, on the NHS, an operation that no way would a man of his level in the US have been able to afford, he's still going fit and strong 17 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie The Tramp Returns Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 x a million! Having been fleeced by the US system for very nearly every penny I had, I really do not want that system here, we are better than that. I can only assume that those who champion that type of system have never had to either use it or see the effects of it on those unfortunate enough not to be able to afford the insurance premiums. My father was diagnosed with potentially fatal stomach cancer, within a week he had had an experimental procedure, on the NHS, an operation that no way would a man of his level in the US have been able to afford, he's still going fit and strong 17 years later. It makes you proud as a true Britain that we have a NHS even with the abuse it receives by those who are not really entitled to it. As I said in an earlier post there are two problems with the NHS, you work it out. As usual the truth must never be spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Not talking about those with suicidal intent, rather those with the honest intent to treat themselves and getting it lethally wrong. If regulation is needed, the market will demand it. The amount of regulation required and in what area, needs to be defined by individuals. Their demand for regulation is fulfilled by the supply of it from third parties. If someone still wants to take lethal stuff regardless, they only have themselves to blame. You can lead a horse to water... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBingo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Having been fleeced by the US system for very nearly every penny I had, I really do not want that system here, we are better than that. I hope we don't get that system either, its the worst of both worlds, statist and corporatist or to give it its true name, fascist. A lot of statists think that corporatism is the opposite of statism, it is not, it is an extension of it. Any true free marketeer is appalled by the US system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 So long as they can be packaged into nice, priceable units like hip replacement operations, where folk can choose one from a range of options in the catalogue. But the free market model has no solution to problems like schizophrenia or Alzheimer's, where the sufferer either doesn't know they're ill &/or refuses to accept that they are, and which cause progressive problems for years, with no defineable end point. A truly free market depends on everyone being able to exercise an informed choice and having the mental capacity to do so. One of the paradoxes of some illnesses is that the nature of the problem fundamentally alters the sufferer's ability to make the choices necessary to deal with that problem. A free market is one where people freely associate, to reach mutual agreement. Are you suggesting that people are unable to solve such problems without coercion and theft? Having choice, rather than an enforced monopoly, doesn't mean the sky will fall in - there will still be reputable providers. It also doesn't mean that you have to choose every little detail either, just like you don't have to book your plane, your hotel, your connections etc on a package holiday. If anyone wants/needs a universal health provider, there would be services available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 God Bless the NHS and long may it reign. PERIOD. It's one thing to ask for charity to improve your health, but it is quite another to steal off other people to do the same. It seems this point is utterly lost on some people though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My father was diagnosed with potentially fatal stomach cancer, within a week he had had an experimental procedure, on the NHS, an operation that no way would a man of his level in the US have been able to afford, he's still going fit and strong 17 years later. Then perhaps your impression of what today's NHS is is about 10 years out of date. I wonder if you still can get pass the gatekeepers within a week today. NHS and welfare state cannot survive with an open border with the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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