Embarrassing Fat Bodies C4

[Kurt Barlow]

Each to their own - I'd give them fruit, then salads, then proper food. (By "fed", I meant fed regularly, not as a way of breaking starvation.)

Its not a personal observation - its from factual cases such as the liberation of the concentration camps and the Bengal famine in 43/44. Anything hard to digest is hazardous as it requires much effort, too much in many cases and the victim expires (refeeding syndrome)

A milk based drink with vitamin and mineral supplementation for the first 3-5 days is the tried and tested method with the highest rates of recovery. Fruit and salads - you might as well machine gun the victims.

[Kurt Barlow]

You see, I wouldn't eat the cereal or milk either. It's not about avoiding wheat, it's about only eating foods that we've been eating for millions of years. As cooking wasn't discovered until recently, that means foods that are edible raw or unprocessed.

(Milk is a funny one. It's natural of course, and edible raw, but you need to farm animals to get it after you are no longer a baby. Farming animals is so recent that only certain people are adapted to milk. I've been checked and I am, but I still tend not to eat it, as it makes me itch. I do eat goat's milk yoghurt though, because I don't get a reaction, and I know how much good stuff is in it.)

I minimise milk and wheat intake but do not completely avoid it.

I have read various counter arguements regarding cooking. One is that cooking released a number of vitamins and minerals allowing the human brain to develop in the way it did. In addition cooking has protective qualities - destruction of pathogens.

[Kurt Barlow]

There is a long history of medically supervised fasts, lasting up to a hundred days or so. The orthodoxy is that everyone is given fruit and then salad. Nobody dies.

'Medically supervised' is somewhat different from Dachau or Bengal / Ethiopian famine situations where the starvation has occured over much longer periods and no doubt high levels of stress.

In addition a fairly standard procedure for medically supervised trials is that you start physically fit.

[Kurt Barlow]

I think we might be talking at cross-purposes on the refeeding thing, because my experience is in breaking voluntary fasts when you get hungry. The famine/concentration camp thing is a red herring - I only mentioned it because everyone equates it with fasting - when in fact they are normally eating tiny amounts of awful things or starving.

EDIT: I see your post above and I agree - I don't know how to refeed the starving or malnourished.

I think a 100 day fast is a pretty close match as far as voluntary starvation goes. Whilst I accept it didn't kill anyone I do wonder what long term chronic damage a 100 day fast does?

Scurvy usually appears 2-3 months after Vitamin C intake stops.

No Calcium - osteoporosis

Demineralisation of the bones in general

The liver stores about 1-2 years worth of Vit A, B12, 1-4 months of Vitamin D so assuming the liver was 'full' the store would get you through the fast.

[cattius]

This intermitted fasting has got me quite interested. Are there any websites that aren't trying to sell me something where I can get useful info?

[cattius]

I would look on Wikipedia for most of the basic facts and links to the studies. I know it is also often discussed on that Raw Paleo Diet Forum I mentioned earlier.

There is also a free e-book about daily IF called fast-5 - it's too big to link, but I think you can download it free from the site. (I think you need to register, but I don't remember any particular spam or pestering afterwards - the book's writer is an American MD, so pretty respectable. Maybe use a throwaway e-mail address if you want.)

Thanks a bunch 

[@contradevian]

I would look on Wikipedia for most of the basic facts and links to the studies. I know it is also often discussed on that Raw Paleo Diet Forum I mentioned earlier.

There is also a free e-book about daily IF called fast-5 - it's too big to link, but I think you can download it free from the site. (I think you need to register, but I don't remember any particular spam or pestering afterwards - the book's writer is an American MD, so pretty respectable. Maybe use a throwaway e-mail address if you want.)

The only issue I'm having with fasting its on certain types of energy expendure. For example some days I don't think I can cycle home a few miles without having something to eat, though yesterday was able to cycle round great chunks of central London, in a fasted state and without a great desire for food. I suspect your last meal is important perhaps sufficiently high in protein/fats.

[@contradevian]

I think its easier if started when someone wakes up, ie dont break the fast.

Probably best to start off say skipping Breakfast and see how long one can hold out for. Once given in, try again a few days to a week later and see if you can increase the fast time.

Weekends might be easier ie time away from work as stress can make people eat more so assuming lower stress levels at home and keeping occupied even if its just wondering around walking will help increase the duration. Its a case of keeping the mind occupied in a nice way, like lying out on a beach in the sun for example or what ever else people find relaxing.

I wonder if a massage is also more beneficial whilst fasting. If the body consumes toxins during the fast, having a helping hand to get more out could reduce the risk of re-uptake of released toxins if they get broken down more quickly by the fast state?

Yes some good points there really. I got into fasting following "skipping breakfast." I found I just wasn't hungry in the morning, and was just eating for the sake of it. Then again just recently I have felt really hungry in the morning. I think stress has a great deal to do with it and cortison can wreak havoc with the system.

As Brad Pilon points out in "Eat Stop East" its important to stay focussed, busy and engaged, and take your mind of food. Yesterday in London my mind was engaged on a number of things, not where I was going to get my next "fix!"

That is also what is very liberating about fasting, not having to constantly think when and where I going to have to eat, and how you are going to cook it and so on.

[ccc]

Yes some good points there really. I got into fasting following "skipping breakfast." I found I just wasn't hungry in the morning, and was just eating for the sake of it. Then again just recently I have felt really hungry in the morning. I think stress has a great deal to do with it and cortison can wreak havoc with the system.

As Brad Pilon points out in "Eat Stop East" its important to stay focussed, busy and engaged, and take your mind of food. Yesterday in London my mind was engaged on a number of things, not where I was going to get my next "fix!"

That is also what is very liberating about fasting, not having to constantly think when and where I going to have to eat, and how you are going to cook it and so on.

But I reckon naturally we are supposed to continually think about food.

[chronyx]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2004113/White-bread-unhealthy-anglers-banned-using-bait-makes-fish-unwell.html

Fish need a gluten free diet as well as humans!

That is pretty incredible! Makes sense though. I wonder how well birds cope with bread, as they are 'designed' to eat grains. Although today's franken-grains might be too much even for them.

[@contradevian]

http://www.dailymail...ish-unwell.html

Fish need a gluten free diet as well as humans!

TMP posted this link in the Vit D thread:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2003622/Is-bread-making-ill-How-2011s-loaves-bad-you.html

Read it yesterdays Mail. Interesting article, though I think its best to avoid bread entirely.

[@contradevian]

Yeah I posted it to this thread becuase of the cereals issue.

http://www.housepric...dpost&p=3022072

Ooops!

['Bart']

Who knows? I might even get as masculine as "average".

You'll always be "all man" in my eyes Durch.

['Bart']

Jeeez, my diet hits so many "don'ts" it's depressing.

If I drink tea but cut out the sugar, would that be OK or just "acceptable".

If I switch from white bread to Ryvita that's got to be an improvement? (Even though Ryvita has salt in it.)

In terms of cereals, I tend to switch between cornflakes and wheatabix. What about Muesli? Is that OK? Or at least an improvement?

I'm fond of steamed vegetables, but what about frozen veg? Are they an acceptable alternative?

I also tend to eat things like butter beans, borlotti beans and chick peas (all tinned). The info on the cans says ingredients: water, firming agent, calcium chloride.

[chronyx]

If I switch from white bread to Ryvita that's got to be an improvement? (Even though Ryvita has salt in it.)

In terms of cereals, I tend to switch between cornflakes and wheatabix. What about Muesli? Is that OK? Or at least an improvement?

[Number79]

With the issue of fasting, as theres no protein coming in to fuel the muscles and thus some muscle wastage will occur, is it possible the body is smart enough to eat into muscles causing problems, like tight muscles formed due to poor posture for example.

Just thinking if it is, then it could also be a good way for the body to get back to the basics in terms of sorting out inappropriate muscles affecting the skelton in general.

Yes you do lose muscle mass if they are not fed but I dont believe it would ever cause muscle problems.

I am not quite sure what an "inappropriate" muscle is since they are only in places where they are needed and grow in response to usage but all muscles will lose mass if starved of protein.

[Number79]

Jeeez, my diet hits so many "don'ts" it's depressing.

If I drink tea but cut out the sugar, would that be OK or just "acceptable".

That's ok and certainly much better. Herbal or green teas would be a step further.

If I switch from white bread to Ryvita that's got to be an improvement? (Even though Ryvita has salt in it.)

Assuming that this isnt a wind up then ryvita is better than bread for you but not if you are cutting out grains.

In terms of cereals, I tend to switch between cornflakes and wheatabix. What about Muesli? Is that OK? Or at least an improvement?

Now I know this is a wind up try porridge, ready brek, eggs, full english, good fruits, yoghurt.

I'm fond of steamed vegetables, but what about frozen veg? Are they an acceptable alternative?

A lot of frozen veg is fresher than stuff you buy fresh anyway but it tends not to cook so well and ends up softer rather than having any crunch, down to personal taste I suppose.

I also tend to eat things like butter beans, borlotti beans and chick peas (all tinned). The info on the cans says ingredients: water, firming agent, calcium chloride.

Buy the dried beans in bags, much much cheaper and havent been messed with.

[@contradevian]

Jeeez, my diet hits so many "don'ts" it's depressing.

If I drink tea but cut out the sugar, would that be OK or just "acceptable".

If I switch from white bread to Ryvita that's got to be an improvement? (Even though Ryvita has salt in it.)

In terms of cereals, I tend to switch between cornflakes and wheatabix. What about Muesli? Is that OK? Or at least an improvement?

I'm fond of steamed vegetables, but what about frozen veg? Are they an acceptable alternative?

I also tend to eat things like butter beans, borlotti beans and chick peas (all tinned). The info on the cans says ingredients: water, firming agent, calcium chloride.

I don't think switching from bread to Ryvita would be an improvement, unless you drastically reduce consumption in the process.

I went through Ryvita stage, a couple of slices a day, when I was "low carbing" and wanted something "crunchy" with cheese, but was able to eventually give those up.

Perhaps look at scrambled eggs, cooked breakfasts as alternatives to cereals.

I was lucky in a sense giving up sweetened tea/coffee decades ago. I found that remarkably easy.

There are gluten free products/alternatives, but these are largely junk too.

I confess its all easier said than done. My father was never able to quite sugar in his tea. Its every bit like coming off booze and drugs. Sugar and wheat all have addictive properties.

Can't see anything wrong with frozen veg, and is preferable to tinned stuff. If it comes in a tin or a packet its unlikely to be good for you!

['Bart']

What I mean is, is the Muesli sold in shops loaded with additives? I used to think that cornflakes etc. were pretty healthy.

(I guess the white bread ---> Ryuvita one was pretty much a no brainer.)

[chronyx]

What I mean is, is the Muesli sold in shops loaded with additives? I used to think that cornflakes etc. were pretty healthy.

(I guess the white bread ---> Ryuvita one was pretty much a no brainer.)

I don't know, I stopped eating horse food a while ago Bacon and eggs for brekkie if I even bother cooking any

I've also heard white bread is better than brown, as it is mostly just empty carb calories with at least some of the gluten and gut irritating fibre removed.

I won't even try and start with the anti-fibre 'movement' suffice to say high fat medium protein zero fibre is working well for me.

[@contradevian]

I don't know, I stopped eating horse food a while ago Bacon and eggs for brekkie if I even bother cooking any

I've also heard white bread is better than brown, as it is mostly just empty carb calories with at least some of the gluten and gut irritating fibre removed.

I won't even try and start with the anti-fibre 'movement' suffice to say high fat medium protein zero fibre is working well for me.

Yup I've read about the great fibre con too.

The "fibre" myth was a last ditch attempt by cereal manufacturers to make an unhealthy food "healthy" by creating an wholly imaginary health "benefit."

Your body doesn't need to eat cardboard, just to poop down the loo 12 hours later.

[chronyx]

The thought popped into my head the other day of the whole grain myth.

It's genius - convince people to eat more weight by volume of useless fibre, saving refining and disposal of the bran costs! Cheaper than feeding it to cows, just box the whole lot up, fortify it, and sell it for a huge premium. It's brilliant.

['Bart']

To eat really healthily you need to eat only from those edible basic things, for example poached eggs and a big salad for breakfast, salmon and pile of steamed veg and fruit for dinner or steak, eggs, spinach and parsnips - and because they are all pretty energy-rich satisfying, you don't need to eat as often IMO. (Buy them as they are - a fish, a leek, an egg, not as ingredients in processed things.)

That lot looks a good basis for me to dip a toe in the water so to speak.

Although I'm a little embarrassed to say that I've never poached an egg in my life.

[@contradevian]

The thought popped into my head the other day of the whole grain myth.

It's genius - convince people to eat more weight by volume of useless fibre, saving refining and disposal of the bran costs! Cheaper than feeding it to cows, just box the whole lot up, fortify it, and sell it for a huge premium. It's brilliant.

Well the problem is that, they do sell cardboard for cattle food too, which results on grain fed cattle producing more saturated fat than grass reared cattle. In order that cows don't die eating this crap, it has to be introduced into the feed gradually and of course they need to be pumped full of antibiotics. This ought to be telling us something.

[@contradevian]

That lot looks a good basis for me to dip a toe in the water so to speak.

Although I'm a little embarrassed to say that I've never poached an egg in my life.

Scrambled eggs are probably easiest. Melt some butter ( and I mean real butter, not "low fat crap" spread) into a saucepan, melt crack the eggs and season if necessary. Stir and add some double cream if you want. The eggs will soak up the butter. You can add grated cheese (if you wish, or ham, salmon, pilchards, mackarel etc..) to the top of the egg and grille if you want.

Sometimes I remove the egg whites as I don't always need the protein. The fat is almost all contained in the yolks and the fat from hen's egg's is amongst the highest quality fats available to humans.

For "pizza" think omelette instead.

For "shortcake" effect I tend to create something made from ground up walnut halves. I grind down walnuts in a blender, melt some butter and soak up the warm butter in the walnut and mix well.

I then leave to set in the fridge.

To retain some "crunch" don't grind up the nuts too much!

You can then cover the walnut "shortcake" with high cocoa chocolate to the "shortcake" mixed with heated butter. Use a little honey to sweeten.

You won't eat a lot, its very filling!