Made Redundant, Too Much In Savings

[Guest theboltonfury]

But it aint just 60 quid a week is it ? Theres rent and council tax that they pay as well.

You are so silly sometimes Timmy.

They don't pay all your rent nor all your council tax. I'm not sure what your point is?

[Guest Barebear]

Sorry but I think you are talking rubbish. For this to work there would have to be a national database linking every single bank and building society account bank to say a national insurance number.

It doesnt exist. Explain to me how it would work if I opened a bank account in Spain say? Or is this an EU wide database?

Didn't say there was.

But as I said before when they investigate, they will find by other methods than by going to every bank what accounts you have.

Tis you who are talking the rubbish Mr Storm.

[Guest Barebear]

They don't pay all your rent nor all your council tax. I'm not sure what your point is?

Yes they do.

There is what they call an indicative rent for a single person. If by chance you are living with someone they expect the other person to contribute their share.

[Seydel]

Sorry but I think you are talking rubbish. For this to work there would have to be a national database linking every single bank and building society account bank to say a national insurance number.

It doesnt exist. Explain to me how it would work if I opened a bank account in Spain say? Or is this an EU wide database?

No idea whether the service is EU-wide but in the UK it's known as their Data Matching Service.

[dispossessed]

And thats why the advice I've given is not fraudulent, creative maybe. There is a difference.

The authorities would be the judge of that, not sure they'd see the difference.........

Why is it foolish?

As long as you engage in underhand avoidance techniques what's the problem?

Look, most of the posters on here (who are unemployed or who have been have paid into the bl00dy system) surely they are entitled to protect themselves, because its become painfully obvious that the state doesn't care about them specifically.

The problem? Consequences are the problem.

Recently, there was a lady on here in the situation where she had lost her job, was loaded with debt yet had some cash. She asked if she could pay off her debts entitling her to extra state help but was told that counted as disposal.

Surely you know the Liberal Intelligensia of this government of betrayal would rather waste money on their pet projects? Personally, I think the whole thing stinks, and I can understand anger and people trying to fiddle the system. However, anybody who does it, or thinks they have found a loophole need to accept that they may get caught out. In what I believe is an unfair system, do not expect reasonableness on behalf of the authorities to be in abundance.

[Guest Barebear]

Lets look at this new story here:-

http://www.messengernewspapers.co.uk/news/...50_000_savings/

Benefit fraud woman failed to declare she had £50,000 saving

She pleaded guilty to failing to declare that she had savings of nearly £50,000 and as a result had been overpaid benefit between January 2001 and November 2008.

So she was doing this for 7 years.

This bit is interesting

Council counter fraud officers were alerted to the matter by a data matching exercise that highlighted the account in which the savings were held.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said they look into your entire history, who you worked for what account that employer used etc etc.

I wonder what this actually means.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Thanks everyone for the splendid debate. Good arguments on both sides on the morality / fairness of the story.

Now I have another question: if I can prove that I owe someone £10000, can I pay back this person for this amount of money? or is it fraud?

I think you're ok paying down debts.

[Johnny Storm]

Didn't say there was.

But as I said before when they investigate, they will find by other methods than by going to every bank what accounts you have.

Tis you who are talking the rubbish Mr Storm.

How? You are making this up.

http://www.molevalley.gov.uk/index.cfm?Articleid=5004

Just found another man that got caught, claimed from 1994 - 2008. Had £25,000 in savings

It was only as a result of a government data matching exercise that the Council became aware that Mrs Seaward held substantial savings in two Building Society accounts.

Despite attempts by Benefit Fraud Investigators to interview Seaward, he twice walked out of interviews before they were completed. Investigators were forced to use powers to obtain the evidence direct from the Building Society. Duplicate statements were obtained which showed that Mrs Seaward in fact held over £25,000 in savings, which had failed to be declared to the Council.

Upon further investigation, it was also revealed that Seaward held a current account with HSBC, which he had also failed to declare. Investigators obtained statements for this account, which showed that Seaward was receiving unexplained credits averaging over £20,000 per year.

So he had hidden accounts for 14 years! Is this something to do with tax collected on interest paid? Data matching benefit claimants with people who paid tax on savings?

[crashpope]

So it's up to us to provide our own welfare and have the spaffers who can't be bothered to save to have their own fund.

The spaffers are a different issue.

Savings are savings, maybe for a child's education or in case you needed a life saving op, or whatever. They are not primarily there to sustain life during periods of unemployment.

They are not "primarily" for any of the things you mention, they are for when you need them, and if you get unemployed for more than 6 months you should indeed start to live off them until they fall below the threshold for claiming.

That is what the DSS is for. You know, the thing we all forced to pay in to.

No, the DSS is for social security (the clue's in the name), not for looking after individuals with enough funds to look after themselves. You seem to regard "insurance" as meaning "saving", that if you paid in, you should be paid out, even if you don't qualify for a claim - try that line on Aviva when you are lucky enough to avoid claiming on your household insurance.

[RentingForever]

I've just been made redundant and I know that I have too much in savings to be able to claim job seeker benefits.

To reiterate what others have said, the legal route is: you will need to declare all your savings but for the first six-months you can get contributions-based JSA (if you have paid a certain amount of NI in the previous year) which is not means tested. You won't however be eligible for the other means-tested benefits like housing and council tax benefit. After the six months you revert to income-based JSA which is means-tested so if your savings are above the limit you'll have to live off them until they fall below the limit (or you find a job).

But you have to press your point. When I signed on a few years back the JobCentre guy looked at my savings declaration and said I wasn't entitled to anything. I had to spend ages convincing him and explaining the distinction between the two JSAs. Admittedly this was at Elephant & Castle JobCentre where the staff are really, really thick!

[Guest Barebear]

How? You are making this up.

No I aint

http://www.molevalley.gov.uk/index.cfm?Articleid=5004

Just found another man that got caught, claimed from 1994 - 2008. Had £25,000 in savings

So he had hidden accounts for 14 years! Is this something to do with tax collected on interest paid? Data matching benefit claimants with people who paid tax on savings?

He was just randomly investigated

[Johnny Storm]

He was just randomly investigated

No, he was spotted via data matching. Which triggered the investigation. Did you read that article? About where it says they couldnt access his accounts and had to get a court order.

[dispossessed]

I'm currently unemployed, you go down the JC and see what the state PAYS for. Then you might (just might), have a different opinion on that statement.

I've seen them with my own eyes. I've a friend who works amongst them. It's a scandal. Absolutely with you on this. What mym is saying and this government has reinforced is that there is no incentive to look after yourself, spend today and let somebody else pick up the pieces, to hell with personal responsibility. A lack of personal responsibility has helped get the UK into the mess it is in now.

[Guest Barebear]

No, he was spotted via data matching. Which triggered the investigation. Did you read that article? About where it says they couldnt access his accounts and had to get a court order.

You seem to be arguing against yourself Johnny, one minute your saying get a new account and put your money in there they wont be able to go to every bank in the land. The next minute your quoting data matching stories.

Personally I think the latter is a red herring, that sort of data must be extremly complicated and long winded. However it might explain why it took them 14 years to catch him and 7 for the other woman.

I still reckon they do it randomly and the data matching thing is a scare tactic.

IMHO that is of course.

[Johnny Storm]

I have found what data matching is.

http://www.brentwood.gov.uk/index.php?cid=1395

Computer data matching to combat benefit fraud

The investigation of Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Fraud is regularly assisted by the matching of computer data.

Data is now being matched between Local Authorities and many Public Sector Authorities including Her Majesty’s Revenues & Customs (HMRC). This particular match with HMRC is able to identify interest payments on undeclared savings.

So, I would suggest a non interest bearing account. Problem solved.. Yes?

[clockslinger]

All my savings are in my wife's name. Would that be taken into account by the benefits office?

[/quot

If you are married then your assets are jointly taken into account. I believe she will also have to countersign your claim so, if she misrepresents the true situation, she is also potentially committing an offence. Bast#rds have tried to sew it up so tight there is no wriggle room for the poor. Contrast that with their mates in the city. And there's even more severe hardship coming soon courtesy of Cameron, mark my words. Nontheless, I have no doubt that there will be posts on this thread about "scroungers" (and so on) from the usual unenlightened masses acting against their own interests. These idiots presumably calculate it will never happen to them.....yet.

[Guest Barebear]

I have found what data matching is.

http://www.brentwood.gov.uk/index.php?cid=1395

Computer data matching to combat benefit fraud

The investigation of Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Fraud is regularly assisted by the matching of computer data.

Data is now being matched between Local Authorities and many Public Sector Authorities including Her Majesty’s Revenues & Customs (HMRC). This particular match with HMRC is able to identify interest payments on undeclared savings.

So, I would suggest a non interest bearing account. Problem solved.. Yes?

Where would you find such an account that would pay you no interest ??

[Johnny Storm]

Where would you find such an account that would pay you no interest ??

Lots of current accounts pay no interest.

Btw, if you were correct about the random checks, which I strongly put it to you that you arent. The scenario would work like this. Ok we are investigating mr Storm.

DHSS: Do you have any savings you havent declared?

Stormy: No

DHSS: Ok we are now going to get a court order for every single bank and building society to find if you have anything with them

Stormy: Ok......

They just arent going to do it. All the examples we see are where they see data matching , know the bank, get a court order for the bank, get the statements.

[sun n sea]

Why use the parachute if you dont need to ? You may just as well throw your money down the drain

Ah, but why have a parachute in the first place if you are too mean to open it?

I know plenty of people who love having money.... so much so that they will NEVER spend any of it because their bank balance wouldn't have so many zeros and therefore wouldn't give them the same thrill.

This is borderline OCD and totally barking!!

[Guest Barebear]

Lots of current accounts pay no interest.

Btw, if you were correct about the random checks, which I strongly put it to you that you arent. The scenario would work like this. Ok we are investigating mr Storm.

DHSS: Do you have any savings you havent declared?

Stormy: No

DHSS: Ok we are now going to get a court order for every single bank and building society to find if you have anything with them

Stormy: Ok......

They just arent going to do it. All the examples we see are where they see data matching , know the bank, get a court order for the bank, get the statements.

Yes I know that, you haven't read my posts have you.

This is the more likely scenario they go to your last employer and ask what account they paid your salary into. If its differnent to the one you've given them they get a warrant to see it.

They know people start new accounts to hide savings it aint exactly a complicated idea.

[Johnny Storm]

Ah, but why have a parachute in the first place if you are too mean to open it?

I know plenty of people who love having money.... so much so that they will NEVER spend any of it because their bank balance wouldn't have so many zeros and therefore wouldn't give them the same thrill.

This is borderline OCD and totally barking!!

Having money is being free, if you have always lived month to month (like an awful lot of people) you wont understand.

Being free means you can quit your job anytime you like, and you have years to find one.

Being free means you find out you need an urgent operation, there is a big waiting list for it, your money pays for it now.

Being free means you can leave this country whenever you want, and use your money to live whether you like. Job or not.

And so on and so on....

Its not a thrill, its about being responsible for ones own future and being free to do whatever you want to.

Yes I know that, you haven't read my posts have you.

This is the more likely scenario they go to your last employer and ask what account they paid your salary into. If its differnent to the one you've given them they get a warrant to see it.

They know people start new accounts to hide savings it aint exactly a complicated idea.

No I totally took that on board. How is that going to help them find the 25K i have with the Halifax thats been there 2 years? (I dont really bank with them, just an example)

[winkie]

I think we are looking at wealth preservation here, not how to spend the bloody stuff!

However, since going on some cracking holidays, I don't see that as a waste if is expands your mind or gives you another perspective on life.

Very true, and whilst on your travels why not pop into the local bank and open an account.

[Guest Barebear]

No I totally took that on board. How is that going to help them find the 25K i have with the Halifax thats been there 2 years? (I dont really bank with them, just an example)

No idea im sure. If you have an account that you havent used for age" s but theres money in it ( as I have ) then you sign on and dont mention it more than likely it will never come to light.

But your theory about them monitoring interest payments may be the answer. Imagine the size of the program though and all the sifting that would need to be done to differentiate between small amounts, times and dates,duplicate names unchanged addresses , the list go's on and on.

[Si1]

No idea im sure. If you have an account that you havent used for age" s but theres money in it ( as I have ) then you sign on and dont mention it more than likely it will never come to light.

But your theory about them monitoring interest payments may be the answer. Imagine the size of the program though and all the sifting that would need to be done to differentiate between small amounts, times and dates,duplicate names unchanged addresses , the list go's on and on.

address changes -easy - equifax, electoral role etc

they'd just get total interest against this person-id on Halifax's database (piece of p*ss)

basically, much more trivial than you suggest

[Johnny Storm]

afaik they dont have an unique identifier. A national insurance number for instance. Americans are moving towards social security ID for all banking.

You are also considering address changes in the wrong place. The DHSS application would be in the correct address, the bank account in an old one. The bank isnt trying to track you down to have your correct address using electoral role, equifax etc

In fact, I recently wrote to Abbey asking to close an account (crap interest rate) they wrote back after a month saying that as this was an internet only account they could only deal with this over the phone and to ring their 5p a min line. Now Im not going to be ringing up to get a hard sell on some other crap. So into the future this account will end up with the wrong address on it.