Lone_Twin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Nothing wrong with concepts. If the majority hold such concepts it pays to fall in line and tip your hat to reach your goals. It also did. It always will. Thats fine but it dosnt make those concepts factualy correct, moraly right, or even sensible. You want everyone to toe the line because you do. Becuase if you are prepared to be compliant and dumb it serves your interests that everyone else is. Perfectly reasonable argument from self interest but you need to be honest about it and not pretend it has anything to do with facts or freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Thats fine but it dosnt make those concepts factualy correct, moraly right, or even sensible.You want everyone to toe the line because you do. Becuase if you are prepared to be compliant and dumb it serves your interests that everyone else is. Perfectly reasonable argument from self interest but you need to be honest about it and not pretend it has anything to do with facts or freedom. And it pointless arguing about things like this that get in the way of real debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 And it pointless arguing about things like this that get in the way of real debate. Because you wish to define the boundaries of debate. At the base of all the weird things people believe, and the horrible, cruel, nasty, stupid things they do are the facts; if we could all just stick to the facts rather than acting on the irrational beliefs which have ended up within our minds I think the world would be a better place. Without nation states would we have had the Somme? Without tribal concepts would we have had the genocides in the former Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Without religion; the crusades, jihad or GW Bush? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdc395 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm happy enough to accept that as your opinion but that was not your original position, which was that conceptual states were as real as any tangible object. I'm not sure I've changed my position... The fact that the word has a well understood meaning and that its concept (sovereignty) is respected (most of the time) by the majority makes countries as real as any intangible thing can possibly be. Seems fairly consistent to me. Sexism provides an evolutionary purpose, if I can keep a woman compliant, at home and full of babies I am likely to have more offspring which are more likely to be mine. You should let some of those babies out or she'll pop! You've made a good point but I'm not ready to concede that you're right on this one. Need to give it some more thought. Likewise the subjugation of other people on the basis of clasification of "otherness" (on racial grounds as any other) allows me to increase my material wealth for both status and sustainment purposes. It's a tricky thing, language. To me, racism is not equivalent to the subjugation of another "tribe". Rather, the former helps "justify" (falsely, of course) the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Without nation states would we have had the Somme? Without tribal concepts would we have had the genocides in the former Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Without religion; the crusades, jihad or GW Bush? What would be have had WITHOUT nation states? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm not sure I've changed my position...Seems fairly consistent to me. I agree, my error. You should let some of those babies out or she'll pop! You've made a good point but I'm not ready to concede that you're right on this one. Need to give it some more thought. Come back to me when you have. I'm pretty sure on this. It's a tricky thing, language. To me, racism is not equivalent to the subjugation of another "tribe". Rather, the former helps "justify" (falsely, of course) the latter. I think they are probably both equivalent and related. My only point is that people through the ages have belived that many things are "innate" truths either about the humans, the world or our place within it. e.g our seperateness from the rest of the animal kingdom and our dominion over it. They might seem distant and entirely ridiculous that they would be considered innate, which is why you are struggling to mentaly put them in the same category as tribalism which is still a very current concept (though in a much modified form). If it is possible to believe that women are equal in capability and value to men and that we share 97% of our genetic make up with a chimp then we can probably accept that there is a better way of doing things than tribalism on steriods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 What would be have had WITHOUT nation states? People I'm not trying to be faceatious. And i'm certainly not saying that I have the answers. As I've said more than once I'm not sure anarchy is either practical or desirable. But it does not negate any of the points about how the state functions which is mostly via theft and violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Nothing wrong with concepts. If the majority hold such concepts it pays to fall in line and tip your hat to reach your goals. It also did. It always will. House prices only go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 People I'm not trying to be faceatious. And i'm certainly not saying that I have the answers. As I've said more than once I'm not sure anarchy is either practical or desirable. But it does not negate any of the points about how the state functions which is mostly via theft and violence. But all you are doing is making statements. You dont go around moaning that you cant fly - its pointless. It just moaning that you dont like things without actually doing anything about it. Its lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 But all you are doing is making statements.You dont go around moaning that you cant fly - its pointless. It just moaning that you dont like things without actually doing anything about it. Its lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well done. You are clever. Do you understand sarcasm? Still waiting for you to tell us all why you stay here and claim free health care when you despise the system that provides it Would you say you are a hypocrite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well done. You are clever. Do you understand sarcasm? No, I am logical to the point where my sense of humour has been entirely removed and I type with robotic, jerky movements. Still waiting for you to tell us all why you stay here and claim free health care when you despise the system that provides it I'm more than happy to accept repayment when I have been stolen from. And gifts. Doing someone a favour doesn't automatically mean they owe you, btw. They have ot expressly agree to do something for you as well. Would you say you are a hypocrite? Sure, sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 But all you are doing is making statements.You dont go around moaning that you cant fly - its pointless. It just moaning that you dont like things without actually doing anything about it. Its lazy. It is possible to be passively good. I.e. not to steal or to do violence on others. All I expect is the same in return. I find it extraodinary that you equate pointing out to people the fallacies which shackle us with the defiance of the laws of physics. What have you done today to increase the power of your beloved state, paid extra tax, sucked off gordon brown? Do you want it to love you in return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Its not a lack of humour it's pointing out that your position is foolish.We both agree unicorns don't exist right? But you can still tell me a story about Unicorns and I will understand what you are talking about. You must have missed the posts where Injin tries to pretend he doesn't understand I guess? Edit: And just how asanine is it to be banging on about the supposed foolishness of my position when that position is that i found a one liner post by another amusing enough to say so anyway? Edited August 11, 2009 by HumanAction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 You must have missed the posts where Injin tries to pretend he doesn't understand I guess? You mean the ones where I ask questions to reveal the previous posters misunderstanding? Why don't they get answered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) You mean the ones where I ask questions to reveal the previous posters misunderstanding?Why don't they get answered? Not everyone dignifies stupid questions with responses? That would be my guess. Edited August 11, 2009 by HumanAction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Not everyone dignifies stupid qiestions with responses? That would be my guess. What makes the last one special versus me asking - oooh, lemme see - How do you know that countries exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 What I would like to know is how do you become an injin?...would it be possible for all of us to become one? Would civilization continue to exist? and who would be boss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 What makes the last one special versus me asking - oooh, lemme see - How do you know that countries exist? My experience tells me so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 My experience tells me so. What specifically? What have you seen, heard, touched, felt, smelled that tells you this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwantaHome Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 i dont think its a new phenomenon...Guy Fawkes tried to get rid of government quite a while ago. As a teacher, it is interesting to me that many modern textbooks give credence to the possibility that Guy Fawkes' plot may have had inside help i.e. it may have had protestant involvement at the highest level. A catholic plot, aided by a leading protestants, to make the Catholics look bad. A bit like the false terror plots of today... they are not what they seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 What specifically?What have you seen, heard, touched, felt, smelled that tells you this? Sure, I've visited other countries and can confirm that countries can be identified one from another by the use of one's senses. I can, for instance, tell if I am in South Korea or the UK merely by using my eyes and ears..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Sure, I've visited other countries and can confirm that countries can be identified one from another by the use of one's senses. I can, for instance, tell if I am in South Korea or the UK merely by using my eyes and ears..... No offence, but this doesn't answer the question. What specifically? What have you seen, heard, touched, felt, smelled that tells you this? I'll add - what differences tell you south korea from the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spaniard Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 What have you seen, heard, touched, felt, smelled that tells you this? The Dormouse had closed its eyes by this time, and was going off into a doze; but, on being pinched by the Hatter, it woke up again with a little shriek, and went on: `--that begins with an M, such as mouse-traps, and the moon, and memory, and muchness-- you know you say things are "much of a muchness"--did you ever see such a thing as a drawing of a muchness?' `Really, now you ask me,' said Alice, very much confused, `I don't think--' `Then you shouldn't talk,' said the Hatter. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland - Lewis Carroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanAction Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 No offence, but this doesn't answer the question.What specifically? What have you seen, heard, touched, felt, smelled that tells you this? I'll add - what differences tell you south korea from the UK? Topography, weather, wildlife, culture, racial makeup, language. Do you seriously think you couldn't tell the difference yourself? More importantly do you imagine anyone will believe you if you try and say no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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