Benefit Payouts Will Exceed Income Tax Revenue

[mbga9pgf]

The people who would buy your stuff would be the people having more of their wages left.This creates demand meaning more and more people get employment.You can export more as industry is more competitive.

The argument that you must pay benefits to keep demand is ridiculous seeing as every penny comes from someone else who would spend it.

How do you justify someone getting tax credits with a house paid off worth 300k?.Paid for by someone earning £13k with no assets.

You cant have half the population consuming wealth without any production in a global economy.However harsh that im afraid is an economic fact.

I grew up on a council estate and the worst thing for people there was welfare.Welfare creates poverty through perverse incentives.It keeps people poor and makes the people paying poorer than they should be.

Durhamborn, we are too far gone. Having just come back from a prolonged spell travelling with work, I have come to the conclusion the UK is a basket case and not worth working myself to the bone for. To that end, seriously thinking of leaving, taking my 10 years of work experience, engineering degree and masters in economics and business with me.

Good riddance.

[Sinking Feeling]

But have you heard the real news?

Michael Jackson has apparently died.

That was yesterday's news - my mate's pretty sure he's seen him alive and well working on the bins in Wigan!

[Johnny Storm]

Durhamborn, we are too far gone. Having just come back from a prolonged spell travelling with work, I have come to the conclusion the UK is a basket case and not worth working myself to the bone for. To that end, seriously thinking of leaving, taking my 10 years of work experience, engineering degree and masters in economics and business with me.

Good riddance.

That is the right answer. A*

[HPC001]

Good points and it shows how lucky I have been. Although I do believe you make your own luck. Trouble is I'm a bit like Injin. We're both reasonable people who forget that many in the world don't behave like us. People like you (and me) sometimes get the 5hit kicked out of us. There needs to be a safety net, sure. But we pick up the pieces and we move on.

Did you go to a tribunal? Did you enforce the contract?

Now, okay, at the moment we are facing the worst economic slump in almost living memory, so TBH I don't know. There needs to be a distribution of resources to maintain life, that I'm certain. What I could not stand was the abuse of that system in previous years.

I'm sure you are always looking to get out of that system. Opportunities etc. I have to find these opportunities, no option for me.

BTW, good luck and I'm not having a dig, peace!

Tribunal wouldn't hear my case, I had to go to small claims route through the county court. Took 14 months.

Like I said earlier on in this thread - if we must have redistribution then it should be as even-handed as possible, and that means a flat rate (with a negative income tax model). Otherwise scrap the lot.

As for opportunities, the academic year doesn't start till September and I'd rather not be twiddling my thumbs till then. Maybe I'll try another type of self-employment, something that doesn't need tools or land...

Edited June 27, 2009 by HPC001

[durhamborn]

Each one of those examples is in reality a dictatorship, albeit of the benign variety. Very similar to China in it's current incarnation.

You want to see the neo-con wet dream in action then get down to Baghdad and watch the chaos...........

How is reforming welfare neo-con?It is infact Liberal to roll back the state from peoples lives.Its not a political question,its an economic one.

The arguments going forward wont be about "if",they will be about "how" and "how much".The socialists dream of the New Jerusalem is burning around them.

A lot on the left think this recession will destroy capitalism.It wont.Its socialism that will be crushed once the rug is pulled from under the gilts market.

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

Durhamborn, we are too far gone. Having just come back from a prolonged spell travelling with work, I have come to the conclusion the UK is a basket case and not worth working myself to the bone for. To that end, seriously thinking of leaving, taking my 10 years of work experience, engineering degree and masters in economics and business with me.

Good riddance.

to be honest i dont know why anyone wealthy or with transferrable skillswould want to stay in the uk over the next decade, its going to be carnage

[Sinking Feeling]

Do you lot want people to die on the streets and beg for money?

How would you like that? Children crying for food?

Homeless people knocking on your door for scraps of food and some compassion??

Old people dieing because they cannae get aspirin?

Eh?

�160B you say? worth every penny

I wouldn't see any child go without food - not while there are chimneys to sweep and shoes to shine anyway!

[Guest Parry]

Then what do we need? How do you see it ending? How can it?

I know what you mean, I consider it a zero benefit activity lately. I have a really boring book on ITIL Ive been trying to get myself to learn for the last 6 months lol

Although cells will disagree, I think the way out of this is to re-engineer how we live. It's an ideal opportunity that everyone can get involved with and make a contribution as well as receive the benefit.

It's not social engineering, it's just engineering. Not political, simply technical.

The UK for example need to produce it's own food and energy again, reduce imports etc. So let's build some power stations, improve efficiency and get back to a suitable level of agriculture. Water is an issue for the south east in particular. Waste and recycling . . . you know what I mean.

Denmark would be a good model.

If we are going to print money let's get that money to get beneficial human activity going for both now and the future. Ismbard Kingdom Brunel could only do so much and we are reliant on his masterpieces to this day.

But if you are fit and able, you join in.

Sound like a bit of socialist now? Well perhaps, but I'm searching for a way of providing for the future and preventing a collapse in society. Human civilisation is about engineering. Let's get on with it.

[Johnny Storm]

to be honest i dont know why anyone wealthy or with transferrable skillswould want to stay in the uk over the next decade, its going to be carnage

Id hate to miss watching rome burn though

[durhamborn]

to be honest i dont know why anyone wealthy or with transferrable skillswould want to stay in the uk over the next decade, its going to be carnage

It is,but carnage throws up great investments.Plus of course you can live here but have all or most of your assets in much better places.Keep ahead of the curve and trade the disaster.Labour are great governments for making a lot of money under,you just need to be on the shorts as everything comes down.

[Guest Parry]

Tribunal wouldn't hear my case, I had to go to small claims route through the county court. Took 14 months.

Like I said earlier on in this thread - if we must have redistribution then it should be as even-handed as possible, and that means a flat rate (with a negative income tax model). Otherwise scrap the lot.

As for opportunities, the academic year doesn't start till September and I'd rather not be twiddling my thumbs till then. Maybe I'll try another type of self-employment, something that doesn't need tools or land...

Messed up, innit?

No reason for chap like you to be in that situation. But it happens. I get laid off all the time. End of contract etc. But pick up again soon after.

If you can network (I know you've heard all this BS before and it ain't easy, especially now) do so, move from day rate job to day rate job. I did for years.

Now is the right time to start a degree etc. Hopefully when you come out the other side there will be more opportunities. I guess I caught the last wave starting in 1996, so it's easy for me to say all this. Hasn't been easy though.

Good luck old boy, I'm sure (bl00dy hopeful) you'll pull through.

[HPC001]

Although cells will disagree, I think the way out of this is to re-engineer how we live. It's an ideal opportunity that everyone can get involved with and make a contribution as well as receive the benefit.

It's not social engineering, it's just engineering. Not political, simply technical.

The UK for example need to produce it's own food and energy again, reduce imports etc. So let's build some power stations, improve efficiency and get back to a suitable level of agriculture. Water is an issue for the south east in particular. Waste and recycling . . . you know what I mean.

Denmark would be a good model.

If we are going to print money let's get that money to get beneficial human activity going for both now and the future. Ismbard Kingdom Brunel could only do so much and we are reliant on his masterpieces to this day.

But if you are fit and able, you join in.

Sound like a bit of socialist now? Well perhaps, but I'm searching for a way of providing for the future and preventing a collapse in society. Human civilisation is about engineering. Let's get on with it.

Land ownership would make the food part a problem...we'd need to figure out how to supplant mechanised agribusiness, replacing it with sustainable organic farming.

Reducing imports - thats easier, just buy less tat and stop paying unrealistically low prices.

Water - well Veolia has a near-monopoly over water and waste management, we're going to need to deal with that problem here before any serious progress will be made.

Unfortunately there are still idiots who think we should invest in financial services, copyrights and intellectual property etc rather than tangible production.

Messed up, innit?

No reason for chap like you to be in that situation. But it happens. I get laid off all the time. End of contract etc. But pick up again soon after.

If you can network (I know you've heard all this BS before and it ain't easy, especially now) do so, move from day rate job to day rate job. I did for years.

Now is the right time to start a degree etc. Hopefully when you come out the other side there will be more opportunities. I guess I caught the last wave starting in 1996, so it's easy for me to say all this. Hasn't been easy though.

Good luck old boy, I'm sure (bl00dy hopeful) you'll pull through.

Problem is its even easier to get chucked out of a temporary job if they think you're "overqualified" or any nonsense they want to come up with. The only real success I've had with that is a stint in Royal Mail's sorting warehouses. Now I know what happens to packages when they leave the PO counters their rates were very good compared to what I'm used to, although I did do the nightshift which has a 20% bonus associated with it.

As for old boy, I'm sure you meant that as a term of endearment but I can assure you I have a long way to go yet speaking of Thailand, my partner said she was interested in starting something tourist-y out there...

Edited June 27, 2009 by HPC001

[cells]

Although cells will disagree, I think the way out of this is to re-engineer how we live. It's an ideal opportunity that everyone can get involved with and make a contribution as well as receive the benefit.

It's not social engineering, it's just engineering. Not political, simply technical.

The UK for example need to produce it's own food and energy again, reduce imports etc. So let's build some power stations, improve efficiency and get back to a suitable level of agriculture. Water is an issue for the south east in particular. Waste and recycling . . . you know what I mean.

Denmark would be a good model.

If we are going to print money let's get that money to get beneficial human activity going for both now and the future. Ismbard Kingdom Brunel could only do so much and we are reliant on his masterpieces to this day.

But if you are fit and able, you join in.

Sound like a bit of socialist now? Well perhaps, but I'm searching for a way of providing for the future and preventing a collapse in society. Human civilisation is about engineering. Let's get on with it.

like north Korea?

nothing in, nothing out?

[Guest Parry]

Land ownership would make the food part a problem...we'd need to figure out how to supplant mechanised agribusiness, replacing it with sustainable organic farming.

Reducing imports - thats easier, just buy less tat and stop paying unrealistically low prices.

Water - well Veolia has a near-monopoly over water and waste management, we're going to need to deal with that problem here before any serious progress will be made.

Unfortunately there are still idiots who think we should invest in financial services, copyrights and intellectual property etc rather than tangible production.

I've just had some mad thing about HPC forum rules come up, telling me what I can and can't say. Not sure what I've done wrong?

Anyway, there's plenty of other forums.

Need to get Britain working for itself again. Basically. Involves everyone.

Not sure how. But I guess when real crunch time comes it'll happen.

[Guest Parry]

like north Korea?

nothing in, nothing out?

Nope. That's extreme. More E.F Schumacher. Small is beautiful. Local economy stuff. Yes more protectionist. For real protectionism you are looking in the right area of the world. You should see the import duties on stuff over here! Brutal!

[HPC001]

I've just had some mad thing about HPC forum rules come up, telling me what I can and can't say. Not sure what I've done wrong?

Anyway, there's plenty of other forums.

Need to get Britain working for itself again. Basically. Involves everyone.

Not sure how. But I guess when real crunch time comes it'll happen.

Your phone or whatever it is keeps double-posting might be why?

Edited June 27, 2009 by HPC001

[cells]

Nope. That's extreme. More E.F Schumacher. Small is beautiful. Local economy stuff. Yes more protectionist. For real protectionism you are looking in the right area of the world. You should see the import duties on stuff over here! Brutal!

Name some countries that have gone “protectionist†and done good from it.

[hedgefunded]

Why dont you turn that money into precious metals then if you get means tested the state wont know what wealth you have then you can claim even more from the state no need to miss out on the gravy train now is there.

Good idea. Thanks.

[Guest Parry]

Name some countries that have gone “protectionist†and done good from it.

Thailand.

Mad import duties imposed after 97 crash. Was the second biggest buyer of Mercedes after the US in the previous year. They still have good FTA across the world, especially the US (but this is likely due to military co-operation). They run a trade surplus.

Biggest rice exporter. Was biggest chicken exported before Buggie flu.

Sufficiency economy.

Okay, the UK looked 1st world before, yet we know why that was. Things have changed. You can't just print monopoly money any more and exchange it for other peoples real resources, surely that's coming to an end?

You need to provide the basics for yourselves. Why not get the populous not working, sat indoors, bored stiff involved with that? At least maintain real skills which will, highly likely, be lost in this recession.

What I mean is, the UK runs a needless trade deficit when it could be producing for itself. ????

My computer is going skew-whiff, so I may have to shut down. It's all over the place!

[Guest Parry]

Your phone or whatever it is keeps double-posting might be why?

Yes, going crazy so it is.

[Injin]

Name some countries that have gone “protectionist†and done good from it.

That sort of assumes that people wanted to go globalist in the first place.

They didnt and as the market reasserts itself, so will more local ways of doing things.

[HPC001]

Yes, going crazy so it is.

Perhaps I could help with that

[Guest Parry]

Perhaps I could help with that

If you can make the monsoon rains disappear for an hour.

I think it's the mouse thing. Move it about and it highlights stuff, it's like you've pushed the button 'click' but you haven't. Typing is a nightmare, it jumps a few lines and screws the last bit up and then . . . . AARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

Intermittent by the way.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Parry

[clubberdude]

to be honest i dont know why anyone wealthy or with transferrable skillswould want to stay in the uk over the next decade, its going to be carnage

A decent job, with good promotion prospects? I'm planning on staying here for a while, hoping to gain some work experience.

That said, this current government sickens me to the core. Its going to be interesting thats for sure.

If NuLabour get another term however, I'll have to make some tough decisions about whether I'll stay and take the risk, or leave, in the case where things may be better, by emigrating.

Hopefully that situation won't arise.

[HPC001]

If you can make the monsoon rains disappear for an hour.

I think it's the mouse thing. Move it about and it highlights stuff, it's like you've pushed the button 'click' but you haven't. Typing is a nightmare, it jumps a few lines and screws the last bit up and then . . . . AARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

Intermittent by the way.

The monsoon would be more than welcomed in the Indus valley, but thats a subject for another thread. Lets take this to PM to avoid too many off topic posts