3 Men In A Boat Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Yes....and the govt will cut everything else before they go anywhere near the welfare state.Teachers hours? cut 'em! - they won't riot Disabled? cut em - they aren't able to riot the elderly - **** em - see above Without resolving to Nazi techniques, I can't see how we will solve the chav/benefit problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Miller Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 On the positive side your 'depression' will now allow you to ride the gravy train of sickness benefit for all it is worth! I'm feeling a little headache coming on already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Does anybody have a breakdown for how this £150/160 billion is spent? I personally think there is huge scope for forcing people to rely more upon their families/extended families for housing and sustenance over the longer-term but much higher short-term benefits for temporary unemployment/social security benefits. When the entire money raised from income taxes is being given to other people there appears to be something seriously amiss but it may be masking something very obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spivT Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 But isn't this just a reflection of what should happen in a fully socialist society? More and more people depending on the state and a diminishing private earnings proportion?Consider the Cuban system. We become more like it every day. Viva la revolucion. TFH i don't know if you can take that as a socialist society. It's how a modern market economy works, the govt. is the monopoly issuer of it's OWN currency. It has to create a demand for use of that currency so it imposes tax liabilities on business and households, businesses sell goods to the govt. so that they can meet this tax liability. Householders are increasingly employed directly or indirectly by the public sector, hence it's massive ballooning over the last decade. Don't forget the 'private' sector companies who operate in public sector related areas, ie healthcare, education, social care. That's not socialism that's an economy that knows full well the role of the govt. sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishman Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 +1I have seen little businesses go to the wall, squashed out by 'the big boys' and ground under the heel of taxes. I think that Gorgo and his big business mates want a monopoly: ergo no competition, and less choice for the consumer. This sanctimonious, smug, self-serving, totally inadequate govt. make me want to vomit. :angry: Don't delude yourself. Living in a Rand-esque laissez-faire style utopia will have the same outcome - the 'big boys' push aside smaller competitors until all capital and power is controlled by a small elite group. It's Human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Does anybody have a breakdown for how this £150/160 billion is spent?I personally think there is huge scope for forcing people to rely more upon their families/extended families for housing and sustenance over the longer-term but much higher short-term benefits for temporary unemployment/social security benefits. When the entire money raised from income taxes is being given to other people there appears to be something seriously amiss but it may be masking something very obvious. The welfare system has create a law of unintended consequences where for some people it's more profitable not to work and claim benefits especially if you are a single mother who just has babies with as many different men as possible. I think the govt has to get tough with these people and force them to either be sterilised or be on contraception in return for benefits. Fail to comply no benefit. It's harsh but then we appear to have created a system that is being abused and played by a large minority for financial gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabbagepatchkid Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 This really brings out the Uber Tory in me. We need to immediately slash all benefits.That said, I am not sure how without causing riots. But seriously there are too many on invalidity benefits, dole and people receiving child benefit and free bus passes who clearly don't need them. Housing Benefit should be reduced and concerted pressure be brought on landlords to lower rents to fair and realistic levels. HB has been propping up rental prices of low quality accomodation and enriching lazy landlords for years. Addressing this issue would also help bring house prices back into focus. I would also like to make the point that whilst it is very emotive to hear the UK benefits payout expressed in terms of the income tax take, there are many other income sources for the government and a headline saying (for example - I have no idea of the actual figures but would love to see a breakdown) cigarette, alcohol and fuel duty cover the costs of the welfare state would have a rather differnet resonance. Lovely day outside. Going to do some wood filling and try not to inhale too many fumes. Also, not sure I agree about withdrawing free bus passes. If everyone had free local transport, it could well be good for the economy - no disincentive to travel and therefore be economically active, less congestion, better transport services as a result of a wider user base demanding better service and ultimatley a shift away from car reliance in urban areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_austrian Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 That's daft, just borrow it! Eventually they realise they are not going to get their money back and you can't borrow any more, what then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Housing Benefit should be reduced and concerted pressure be brought on landlords to lower rents to fair and realistic levels. HB has been propping up rental prices of low quality accomodation and enriching lazy landlords for years. Addressing this issue would also help bring house prices back into focus.I would also like to make the point that whilst it is very emotive to hear the UK benefits payout expressed in terms of the income tax take, there are many other income sources for the government and a headline saying (for example - I have no idea of the actual figures but would love to see a breakdown) cigarette, alcohol and fuel duty cover the costs of the welfare state would have a rather differnet resonance. Lovely day outside. Going to do some wood filling and try not to inhale too many fumes. Also, not sure I agree about withdrawing free bus passes. If everyone had free local transport, it could well be good for the economy - no disincentive to travel and therefore be economically active, less congestion, better transport services as a result of a wider user base demanding better service and ultimatley a shift away from car reliance in urban areas. Hear, Hear that would be a very good start in helping reduce public spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parry Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Don't delude yourself.Living in a Rand-esque laissez-faire style utopia will have the same outcome - the 'big boys' push aside smaller competitors until all capital and power is controlled by a small elite group. It's Human nature. Rand did of course go to extremes, but as you say, human nature. Perhaps whatever 'system' they choose the destination remains the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parry Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Housing Benefit should be reduced and concerted pressure be brought on landlords to lower rents to fair and realistic levels. HB has been propping up rental prices of low quality accomodation and enriching lazy landlords for years. Addressing this issue would also help bring house prices back into focus.I would also like to make the point that whilst it is very emotive to hear the UK benefits payout expressed in terms of the income tax take, there are many other income sources for the government and a headline saying (for example - I have no idea of the actual figures but would love to see a breakdown) cigarette, alcohol and fuel duty cover the costs of the welfare state would have a rather differnet resonance. Lovely day outside. Going to do some wood filling and try not to inhale too many fumes. Also, not sure I agree about withdrawing free bus passes. If everyone had free local transport, it could well be good for the economy - no disincentive to travel and therefore be economically active, less congestion, better transport services as a result of a wider user base demanding better service and ultimatley a shift away from car reliance in urban areas. I was on plane a few years ago heading into Mumbai. Chap next to me was telling me about all his BTL flats and how angry he was at the lettings agency. They were paying him 'X' and charging the flats out to the local authority at X times Y. I forget the numbers now but they were horrific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_austrian Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Yes....and the govt will cut everything else before they go anywhere near the welfare state.Teachers hours? cut 'em! - they won't riot Disabled? cut em - they aren't able to riot the elderly - **** em - see above Without resolving to Nazi techniques, I can't see how we will solve the chav/benefit problem Switch sides, become a chav. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_austrian Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Housing Benefit should be reduced and concerted pressure be brought on landlords to lower rents to fair and realistic levels. HB has been propping up rental prices of low quality accomodation and enriching lazy landlords for years. Addressing this issue would also help bring house prices back into focus.I would also like to make the point that whilst it is very emotive to hear the UK benefits payout expressed in terms of the income tax take, there are many other income sources for the government and a headline saying (for example - I have no idea of the actual figures but would love to see a breakdown) cigarette, alcohol and fuel duty cover the costs of the welfare state would have a rather differnet resonance. Lovely day outside. Going to do some wood filling and try not to inhale too many fumes. Also, not sure I agree about withdrawing free bus passes. If everyone had free local transport, it could well be good for the economy - no disincentive to travel and therefore be economically active, less congestion, better transport services as a result of a wider user base demanding better service and ultimatley a shift away from car reliance in urban areas. Taxing things makes them more expensive so how would you go about pressurising landlords to charge less in rent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krackersdave Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Social security benefits are projected to be £164.7 billionWTF?! You seem surprised - now add on top the NHS budget of another 100 Bln... 264bn pounds on welfare... And they wonder why every immigrant in the world wants to come here.. it's like fkin Christmas for them. I know we can't avoid income tax but perhaps we should move as much of our purchasing power to the black market to avoid funding this madness... The sooner it all falls down the better.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Miller Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Eventually they realise they are not going to get their money back and you can't borrow any more, what then? I was taking the piss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Taxing things makes them more expensive so how would you go about pressurising landlords to charge less in rent? a. You could say take it or leave it. b. You could say try the private sector and see what you can get. c. You can build more LA and affordable private housing creating more jobs and quality homes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashologist Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 There is no incentive to work anymore. That might not be a bad thing ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InternationalRockSuperstar Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 The middle/higher classes should think of it as an extention to the Defence budget - it's an internal peace keeping cost to defend their lifestyles. it would be a lot cheaper for me to bear arms than to continue paying 40% tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 But isn't this just a reflection of what should happen in a fully socialist society? More and more people depending on the state and a diminishing private earnings proportion?Consider the Cuban system. We become more like it every day. Surely the idea of a fully socialist society is that the people collectively own (typically through the state intermediary) the means of production? If those getting a wage from the state were all working in a state factory somewhere, they might at least generate some kind of wealth. What we have under New Labour is arguably even more pernicious than a centrally-planned economy -- it's a centrally-crippled economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) That's incredible. Even last year for almost every pound paid in income tax by a working person, there was some scrubber taking a pound out! unemployment counts for 4% of that, you be surprised were the rest goes. a nice part if it goes to industries indirectly. Edited June 27, 2009 by crash2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eight Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 We are actually seeing Democracy as a political doctrine hitting the buffers.In a system where people can vote for the party that gives them access to the government coffers the democratic process eventually fails as the coffers become depleted. We are at that stage now. What is needed next would not be acceptible to the voters and the choice is bankrupcy and destitution for the country or a dictatorship (possibly an IMF dictatorship). Or more likely one followed by the other. I've long suspected that a benign dictatorship is the best form of government the average punter can hope for. eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_austrian Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 You seem surprised - now add on top the NHS budget of another 100 Bln... 264bn pounds on welfare...And they wonder why every immigrant in the world wants to come here.. it's like fkin Christmas for them. I know we can't avoid income tax but perhaps we should move as much of our purchasing power to the black market to avoid funding this madness... The sooner it all falls down the better.. Personally, I'm hoping people eventually refuse to pay and taxes become illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 The middle/higher classes should think of it as an extention to the Defence budget - it's an internal peace keeping cost to defend their lifestyles. ...And that is called paying the Dane-geld; But we've proved it again and again, That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld You never get rid of the Dane. It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation, For fear they should succumb and go astray; So when you are requested to pay up or be molested, You will find it better policy to say: -- "We never pay any-one Dane-geld, No matter how trifling the cost; For the end of that game is oppression and shame, And the nation that pays it is lost!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_austrian Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 a. You could say take it or leave it.b. You could say try the private sector and see what you can get. c. You can build more LA and affordable private housing creating more jobs and quality homes. No problem, but that's not "pressurising landlords..." it's adjusting the market within which they operate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPC001 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) Well, the welfare system provided me **** all apart from a meagre fortnightly payment in arrears. It didn't stop me getting homeless, didn't help me get a job, nothing. Give the benefits-bashing a rest and whine about Capita, Veolia, UFI and all the other big private conglomerates getting a free ride in the corporate welfare system. Edited June 27, 2009 by HPC001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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