Australia Faces Its Demons

[blue skies]

View PostBardon, on 02 January 2010 - 04:56 AM, said:

Well houses are selling like hotcakes at the moment so by your analogy that means they must be affordable.

Blueskys replys are in between the (............) Funny how Bardon never replied to this post

.

(Yes at 6.2%borrowing rate and with the gov incentive! will it allways be so or do you think interest rates will go lower and the gov will offfer bigger and better incentives?

Steve Keen you have got to be joking he is a complete and utter oxygen thief that got it orders of magnitude wrong on house prices and unemployment, what has he ever done to be held in such high regard ?

(He was one of only a few independent thinkers who predicted the crash.) "oxygen thief" you give away your true thinking putting down people for no reason, is it just possible that it is you who its the oygen waster?

I actually prefer reading the work of people that have done something with their lives, nothing wrong with those that haven’t either but don’t tell me to read about them or their work.

("try reading some of Steve Keens work" hardly a demand. Do you think that trying to ramp up or down property on this site is a great deed. Or braging about your finantual situation? Do you have your own site? Steve does.

It’s his paying students that I feel for.

(I wish I was educated enuff to understand all the complicated maths)

If I were to get it as wrong as him in my workplace, I would be ran out of town and more than likely sued for professional negligence but for you it is all about non consequential headline grabbing, sounds good to academics ,classical economic model predictions.

(Now you put words in my mouth! can you read my mind? Hmm I dont think you understand you own thinking. As I have said the future is unknown we all of us make a educated gess no more no less. Steve Keen is not a Orical but I take notice of his thoughts and yours and than I take my chances and put my money were I recon it will do best. I have bein wrong and right about a lot of things . Steves prediction of a property crash in 2009 was dashed by government reducing interest rates to low lows, incentives for house buyers and stimulas packages.

When I was working, I never had time to spend a fraction of the time you spend here, just how do you manage it?)

............... Bardon Aussieboy are in all probability one in the same. I have this image of of a unemployed bald, over weight, middle aged man shaking his fist at at the computer screen

[aussieboy]

That's the spirit, a fair go for all replaced by ****** you I'm alright.

Australia has a bright future with such attitudes.

Looks like your short term memory is shot so I'll give you the background.

The comment you quoted was in reply to a bloke who is sitting around p1ssing and moaning that his pounds won't buy the mansion in Adelaide he thought it would two years ago. This is what dissipatedwhatever is whinging about. That's the way to get ahead in any country as a newcomer and a great way to get the locals on side.

Looks like you edited the above. Christ alone know what quality was like before you did.

[aussieboy]

View PostBardon, on 02 January 2010 - 04:56 AM, said:

Well houses are selling like hotcakes at the moment so by your analogy that means they must be affordable.

Blueskys replys are in between the (............) Funny how Bardon never replied to this post

.

(Yes at 6.2%borrowing rate and with the gov incentive! will it allways be so or do you think interest rates will go lower and the gov will offfer bigger and better incentives?

Steve Keen you have got to be joking he is a complete and utter oxygen thief that got it orders of magnitude wrong on house prices and unemployment, what has he ever done to be held in such high regard ?

(He was one of only a few independent thinkers who predicted the crash.) "oxygen thief" you give away your true thinking putting down people for no reason, is it just possible that it is you who its the oygen waster?

I actually prefer reading the work of people that have done something with their lives, nothing wrong with those that haven’t either but don’t tell me to read about them or their work.

("try reading some of Steve Keens work" hardly a demand. Do you think that trying to ramp up or down property on this site is a great deed. Or braging about your finantual situation? Do you have your own site? Steve does.

It’s his paying students that I feel for.

(I wish I was educated enuff to understand all the complicated maths)

If I were to get it as wrong as him in my workplace, I would be ran out of town and more than likely sued for professional negligence but for you it is all about non consequential headline grabbing, sounds good to academics ,classical economic model predictions.

(Now you put words in my mouth! can you read my mind? Hmm I dont think you understand you own thinking. As I have said the future is unknown we all of us make a educated gess no more no less. Steve Keen is not a Orical but I take notice of his thoughts and yours and than I take my chances and put my money were I recon it will do best. I have bein wrong and right about a lot of things . Steves prediction of a property crash in 2009 was dashed by government reducing interest rates to low lows, incentives for house buyers and stimulas packages.

When I was working, I never had time to spend a fraction of the time you spend here, just how do you manage it?)

............... Bardon Aussieboy are in all probability one in the same. I have this image of of a unemployed bald, over weight, middle aged man shaking his fist at at the computer screen

Tried to read this but it's almost impossible to decipher.

Seems aussie bears are deep in the anger stage. I'm not even a bull but I'm finding this all very funny.

Anyway, I have a Centrelink appointment to keep before heading to weightwatchers and the trichologists. It's hard work maintaining two identities for four and a half years, posting from two IP addresses and all.

[laurejon]

MELBOURNE house prices soared by 17 per cent in the first 11 months of 2009, outstripping growth in all other capital cities, new figures show.

The latest RP Data index, compiled from Valuer-General's figures, indicates the Melbourne median house price hit a new record of about $580,000 in November.

The news came as the Australian sharemarket closed at its highest level for the year. The S&P/ASX 200 index finished yesterday at 4870.6, up 31 per cent for the year and 55 per cent from its trough.

Melbourne's 17 per cent house price jump eclipsed Darwin's 15 per cent, Hobart's 14 per cent and Sydney's 12 per cent. And the rise more than offset the 5 per cent slide in Melbourne prices that followed the global financial crisis.

Melbourne's median apartment price increased even more strongly, up 19 per cent to $440,000.

RP Data cautioned that the November figures were preliminary and based on incomplete sales data. However, the inclusion of further sales figures would be unlikely to alter the strong upward trend.

CommSec economist Craig James said immigration was a key driver of prices, with Victoria receiving more than its proportional share.

"With population growing at the fastest rate in 40 years boosting demand for homes, state and federal governments need to be focused on ways to get more homes built," Mr James said.

"Barriers to housing investment need to be removed, and scrutiny needs to be applied to lifting land production and revising zoning laws."

House prices continued to rise in October and November despite successive interest rate rises in those months and the winding back of first home buyer grants.

"First home buyers have been trending down since peaking in May," said RP Data research director Tim Lawless.

"But the gap is being filled by upgraders and investors who are much less sensitive."

Credit figures released yesterday showed borrowing for housing up a further 0.7 per cent in November and up 8 per cent over the year.

Mr James said the resilience of the housing market increased the chance of a further interest rate rise when the Reserve Bank board next meets in February.

"The main worry is that home prices are rising at unsustainable rates in some capital cities such as Darwin, Hobart and Melbourne," he said. "The last thing anyone wants to see in 2010 is another boom-bust scenario."

Mr Lawless said he expected more modest house price growth in 2010 after an "exceptional and surprising" 2009. "We would expect conditions to moderate into 2010 as interest rates continue to move back to a neutral setting and the remainder of the stimulus is rolled back," he said.

"But the primary driver of growth will continue to be an under-supply of housing coupled with extraordinary demand fuelled by population growth."

Yesterday's sharemarket peak of 4870.6 is still a long way from the pre-financial crisis high of 6851. And there is little joy for investors in The Age's half-yearly economic survey to be published tomorrow, with economists predicting a rise of just 5.4 per cent in share prices this year. With LUCY BATTERSBY

Source: theage.com.au

[steve99]

Australia currently imports over 100,000 skilled imigrants each year. For two reasons, firstly to do jobs that local employers have refused to train people in for the last 20 years or so along of course with the ease and cheapness of picking and choosing from a world wide pool (just like UK's traitor employers). The second reason for getting in masses of immigrants is to please the big developers, builders and land owners by letting them expand the outskirts of cities with vast swathes of featureless, soulless suburbs broken only by the odd school and mega sized shopping centre. An important aside to this is to keep house prices high and rising, which apparently pleases everyone.

The big turd in the water pipe (pun intended) is 'Water' or I should say the lack of it. Currently in Melbourne they are planning to expand the population massively over the next decade or two and more water is needed on a massive scale. So not only do they need more water just to satisfy their current population, it appears that what is more needed is a bigger population in order satisfy the big boyz and their profit making scams on account of THIS IS ALL THEY KNOW in Oz re business. ie apart from Mining which employs about 20 people the rest is based on endless suburban expansion and population growth with attendant speculation and development, all aided and abetted by a 4 oligarch banking groups.

http://www.greenlivingpedia.org/Victorian_desalination_plant

Information about the plant

* Household water bills are expected to double over the next five years to pay for a $4.9 billion water strategy to secure Melbourne's water supplies.

* Estimated water production is 150 billion litres (150 gigalitres) of fresh water per year, approximately a third of metropolitan Melbourne's needs based on 2007 consumption levels.

* The plant is planned to be operations by the end of 2011.

* It is intended that the plant will provide additional water to Melbourne, Geelong, Western Port and South Gippsland.

* The plant is estimated to use about 90 mega watts (MW) of power from the grid, which translates to 2160MWh per day. While a commitment was made to use renewable energy to power the plant in an attempt to make it greenhouse neutral, it is likely the plant will be partly powered by a new co-located gas fired power station or from power from the grid from coal-fired power stations, both of which will produce significant greenhouse gas emissions.

* The plant is expected to emit 200 million tonnes of brine to the ocean.

* The plant will be constructed using a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) and could end up being foreign owned.

* The Bracks government opposed the construction of a desalination plant during the 2006 Victorian State election, but reversed its position after the election and committed to building it.

* There was no proper public consultation process that provided input to inform the Government decision to build the plant.

* Significant energy (with associated greenhouse gas emissions) will be required to pump desalinated water from Wonthaggi to Melbourne.

* More than 1.4 million tonnes of greenhouse gas will be pumped out during the construction of Victoria's proposed desalination plant, and another 1.2 million tonnes emitted each year once it starts boosting Melbourne's water supply.

* Greenhouse emissions during the construction of the plant, and about 70,000 tonnes from waste decomposition and transport during its operation, will not be offset.

* Using a two-headed marine structure extending up to two kilometres offshore, the plant will take in 480 billion litres of seawater and pump back 280 billion litres of saline concentration each year.[2]

[edit] Controversy about the location

Floodwater has again threatened the South Gippsland site of proposed desalination plant. Flooding of the site in 2007 was called a "one-in-100-year" event by the State Government, but water from the Powlett River has flowed again over land set aside near Wonthaggi.[3]

[edit] Power consumption comparison with domestic water tanks

The proposed plant is estimated to need between 90 and 120 MW of electricity to operate.

Comparing the energy consumption of the plant with that required for domestic water tank pumps:

* Domestic water tanks are capable of supplying over 95 per cent of the water for a house in Melbourne.

* 600,000 households could save up to 160 gigalitres of water per year by using captured rainwater and reducing their daily consumption.

* The energy required for domestic water tank pumps would multiply to 140 KWh of energy per day for these same households.

* The proposed desalination plant would consume 15 times as much energy just to operate. More energy would be required to pump the water it produces to Melbourne.

[edit] Costs

* The construction cost is estimated to be $3 billion

* Operating costs (most likely charged by a private firm) over a 25 year period could reach $1.5 billion[4]

* Melbourne Water estimates the cost of production of desal water to be $3000 a megalitre

It has been reported that water bills for Melbourne households will almost double over the next five years. Water price plans released by the Essential Services Commission show metropolitan water providers will charge between 87 per cent and 96 per cent more for water. Water Minister Tim Holding, has stated that Melbourne residents need to help pay for major water infrastructure projects, such as the desalination plant and the Sugarloaf (North South) pipeline.[5]

Unfortunately, the community will be forced to pay for the desalination plant, whether they want it or not, without any consultation or serious consideration of alternatives such as domestic water tanks.

[edit] Alternatives

* The capital cost of the plant would could equip about 600,000 households with tank systems and pumps (at $5000 per house) that could provide more water than the plant's estimated production. Combined with recycling sewerage water and protecting our catchments, we may not even need desalination. This option would require about 140 MWh of energy per day, while the desalination plant would consume 15 times as much energy just to operate (2160 MWh per day).

* Stopping logging in Melbourne's water catchments would provide an extra 30 gigalitres of water, which would be much cheaper than paying for the same amount of water to be provided by desalination. This water would also not require pumping to Melbourne.

* A 2007 study of using rainwater tanks as a viable urban water solution concluded that:

"Rainwater tanks are five times more energy efficient than desalination plants and twice as energy efficient as the proposed Traveston dam, per megalitre of water produced.

"If governments deployed rainwater tanks to 5 per cent of households each year in Sydney and South-East Queensland, dams and desalination plants planned for 2010 could be delayed past 2026 (Sydney) and 2019 (SEQ).

"Most Australian houses are suitable for a rainwater tank. In Sydney 65 per cent (or 1.1 million houses), in SEQ 73 per cent (or 900 000 houses) and in Melbourne 72 per cent of existing houses have potential for a rainwater tank.

"While 38 per cent of households in Adelaide have rainwater tanks, fewer than 6 per cent of the houses in Melbourne, Sydney, South-East Queensland and Perth do,” said ACF’s urban water campaigner Kate Noble.

"Rainwater tanks collect and store water far more efficiently than dams, especially in times of drought. As the climate changes we should be installing tanks to take advantage of the rain that does fall on our rooftops.

"If governments systematically installed rainwater tanks in Australia’s major cities, we would secure as much water as the planned Kurnell desalination plant in Sydney, the Tugan desalination plant on the Gold Coast and the stage one of the unpopular Traveston Dam proposed for Queensland’s Mary River,” Ms Noble said.

Note, all the proper green alternatives were dismissed out of hand on account of not paying homage to the big boyz who will coin it from the bill payers for ever more.

From http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2010/01/australian-water-crisis-provides-clues-for-california-at-gday-usa.html

Click here to find out more!

Greenspace

Environmental news from California and beyond

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Australian water crisis offers clues for California

January 15, 2010 | 3:00 pm

Manpour

When California water officials look into the future, many of them see Australia: a vast, arid continent that has been suffering through drought for more than a decade. Severe shortages have prompted Australia to implement strict water-saving measures throughout the country. It has required residents to use less water in their homes, caused government to build large-scale desalination plants and led farmers to implement drip irrigation systems.

Australia, it seems, could offer a model of how to adapt in California, where, despite this weekend’s rains, the state remains in a third year of drought -- a drought many water officials expect not only will continue but continue to be exacerbated by a growing population and climate change considerations.

Recognizing that California and Australia are "inextricably linked to the serious changes and challenges of an accelerating decreasing availability of water and its supply juxtaposed to the demands of ever increasing populations," according to Grame Barty, regional director of the Americans for the Australian Trade Commission, the L.A.-based commission hosted a one-day event Thursday to bring together water sustainability experts from both sides of the Pacific in what it hopes "will become an important annual exchange of issues and solutions between the USA and Australia." It's part of the annual G'Day USA: Australia Week celebration.

Playing host to a wide range of stakeholders, including utilities, government officials, business leaders, academics and nonprofits, the Australia-USA Water Sustainability and Management Forum covered topics such as trading water rights, the effects of climate change on water, water-demand management and urban water planning for growing populations.

"The past is no longer a guide to water management," said Bradley Udall, director of western water assessment for the University of Colorado at Boulder. "Climate theory models all point us in one direction, and that is a future with less water. We need to think here in the U.S. about how to deal with that now, not later."

Udall said the current situation in Melbourne, Australia, which has watched its water reserves decline from 100% in 1997 to 30% today, represents a likely scenario for the American Southwest. 2006 to 2009 were the driest four years for the river that supplies Australia’s second-largest city, and the problems are expected to get only worse. Melbourne’s population is projected to grow by 2 million in the next 10 years, at which point the city will need to build a second desalination plant because it will have outgrown the one that is scheduled to come on line in 2011, "just when the city’s water is close to running out," said Dave Griggs, director of Australia’s Monash Sustainability Institute.

"It’s a little bit of a race against time," added Griggs, who said more than $900 million have already been invested in water-saving strategies for the city. "Melbourne would’ve been dry today if strict water-saving measures hadn’t been implemented."

Griggs cited rainwater harvesting and demand management as the least expensive options for increasing water supplies. Pipelines and dams were among the most expensive options, he said.

"Urban storm water is a large untapped source of water generated close to where it’s needed. ... In most Australian cities, as much water falls on that city as the city needs," Griggs said.

In Queensland, Australia’s fastest-growing state, with 2.7 million residents, about 20% of the population has installed rain-catchment tanks since 2006, when the area received just 7.4% of its average annual inflow to the major dam that supplies it. In 2007, that flow had declined to just 4%.

Responding to its dire circumstance, the Queensland Water Commission implemented a variety of drastic measures.

On the management end, it reduced the number of utilities in the state from 23 to seven. It too built a desalination plant. In addition to developing a system to connect dams supplying the area, it installed an indirect potable reuse system similar to what currently exists in Orange County, said Dan Spiller, principal executive director of the Queensland Water Commission.

On the consumer end, Queensland instituted an aggressive campaign to change the behavior of its residents because about 70% of the water used in Australia is residential. In 2006, when Queensland’s dams had declined to 30% capacity and severe water restrictions were already in place, prohibiting homeowners from watering their landscapes and washing their cars and homes’ windows, "residents reported restriction fatigue," Spiller said.

Yet further water restrictions were necessary.

So Queensland gave them goals. Specifically, it asked that residents use just 35 to 40 gallons of water per person per day -- a savings that could be more easily attained if residents reduced their seven-minute showers to four minutes. In addition to giving residients free shower timers, that message was widely advertised on televison and in outdoor advertising. Those who significantly exceeded the goal were sent letters asking them to explain their water use; of those, 34% reduced their consumption to the appropriate level immediately and 9% discovered they had a leak.

In addition to outreach, Queensland was aided by a $261-million rebate program that provided its residents with 508,000 water-saving devices, including rainwater tanks, low-flush toilets and water-efficient shower heads. The result was a population that didn’t just meet the stated goal but exceeded it.

Although rain has since returned to Queensland, and water use levels are now less restricted, Spiller said, "one of our objectives is that residents use only what they need."

By Queensland standards, that’s about 30 gallons per person per day, compared with 200 to 300 gallons per person per day in Southern California, said Peter Beattie, commissioner to the Americas of the Queensland state government.

California is the largest, and second-fastest-growing, state in the nation, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. L.A. County alone is projected to grow from the 18.6 million residents today to 26 million by 2030.

Most of the residents depend, at least in part, on the Colorado River, where demand could outpace supply as early as 2050, the University of Colorado's Udall said.

"Australians use the words ‘water’ and ‘security’ together," Udall said during his talk on the environmental effects of the Colorado basin. "I suspect the U.S. will do the same as we get further into the 21st century."

-- Susan Carpenter

Photo credit: Queensland Water Commission

Can you believe this stuff, starting to look, sound and quack like ski slopes in Dubai to me

I posted this in order firstly give you all something different and amusing to read and secondly to point out to potential immigrants that stupid politics, greedy big business and just plain stupidity are not unique to the UK

[The Masked Tulip]

All that desert will mean loads of solar power to power their desalination plants... but water will costs loads... Oz is going to be a very hot, dry place to live in in the next 1,000 years.

[ZeroSumGame]

Isn't the natural population of that huge island, ie defined by the ecology of the place, about 10 million or so ?

[blue skies]

Tried to read this but it's almost impossible to decipher.

Seems aussie bears are deep in the anger stage. I'm not even a bull but I'm finding this all very funny.

Anyway, I have a Centrelink appointment to keep before heading to weightwatchers and the trichologists. It's hard work maintaining two identities for four and a half years, posting from two IP addresses and all.

The 2 of you produce more Bile than a caged bear in China !

Try looking at the original post on page 99

[blue skies]

Australian Housing is over priced by 50% , making it the third most over priced property market in the world according to the Economist.

AMP Capital chief economist Shane Oliver said that the report was broadly correct. " But by my calculations property prices are about 27% too high, though its difficult to see much of a correction, " he said.

[buyerbeware]

The title could also be "Australia Buries It's Head in the Sand".

[ExecutiveSlaveBox]

Can you believe this stuff, starting to look, sound and quack like ski slopes in Dubai to me

Don't you understand, it's different in Australia. Bardon should be able to fill you in on the details.

No bubble here, nothing to see, move along.

[ExecutiveSlaveBox]

So just to be clear you are agreeing with Steve that building a desal plant in Victoria to service a major city with a life essential service, using conventional technology in the middle of a major drought, is akin to ski slopes in Dubai ? is that really the comparison that you are agreeing about ?

Is this based on reality or is it just group think with no basis.

I put it to you that it is comparable to a desal plant in Dubai, I don’t know how ridiculous that sounds to you but it is far closer to reality than you thing. So why the outrage in vic from the minority and not in Dubai ?

As for the water bubble, the inelastic one, long may it inflate.

The root cause of this issue is over population over and above what Australia can support, not droughts, which have regularly occurred throughout Australia's history.

There are several reasons why the aboriginals never developed an agrarian society, a good source would be Jared Diamond's, Guns Germs and Steel. However the major one would be the weather cycles which over arch the yearly ones such El Nino/ La Nina etc... Much of Australia over the long term simply does not support farming.

Another good example of what I'm on about would be the dust bowl of the 30s in the US. When the first settlers arrived, everything looked great, they planted and had good harvests. What they didn't realise was they were in the 20 year good cycle, when the bad years came they lasted for longer than conventional farmers could cope with.

Back on topic, the maximum population Australia could support is pretty close to 20 million, a quick google will bring up numerous reports to that effect:

My link

Having to build desalination plants in Australia is a major red light that the country is full and importing 100s of thousands of immigrants needs to stop. A quick look round any mall in oz will tell you the other side of this is over breeding, with 3-4 kids seemingly the norm. The baby bonus in this respect is particularly irresponsible.

Edited January 17, 2010 by ExecutiveSlaveBox

[aussieboy]

The 2 of you produce more Bile than a caged bear in China !

Try looking at the original post on page 99

My comment was quite reasonable I thought. I tried to read what you posted but it was hard to work out what was quote and what was comment. Some of the drafting was hard to follow too.

Nothing ad hom, just some objective feedback.

[steve99]

So just to be clear you are agreeing with Steve that building a desal plant in Victoria to service a major city with a life essential service, using conventional technology in the middle of a major drought, is akin to ski slopes in Dubai ? is that really the comparison that you are agreeing about ?

Is this based on reality or is it just group think with no basis.

I put it to you that it is comparable to a desal plant in Dubai, I don’t know how ridiculous that sounds to you but it is far closer to reality than you thing. So why the outrage in vic from the minority and not in Dubai ?

As for the water bubble, the inelastic one, long may it inflate.

You have twisted the context of my message. The issue is the fact that, firstly, they are building this desal plant to run on electricity powered by fosil fuel, brown coal and gas. Secondly the real reason they are building it is so that they can expand the human population, and the reason they are keen to expand the population is because the only business in town is land development and everything that goes with it, which unfortunately in Australia is very crass and tacky, like the focus of a bunch of suburbs being a Westfield shopping centre and a crossroads with McCacas, KFC, BP and Pizza Hut on each corner and absolutely nothing else but an 1.5Hr commute into the city if that's where you work. Thirdly, if you read some of the stuff I posted and as you have an involvement in this project yourself Mr Bardon, you will know that many alternatives were dismissed out of hand, like the fact that if every house collected water from their own roofs into tanks (as a few already do) we would solve the problem and use far less energy in the process, and the fact that instead of solar power which is a good way to evaporate water we are going to burn a heap of brown coal (they mention gas but coal will be the big boy) and the reason they are doing this is on account of pleasing another bunch of hicks who the current state government is hoping to get votes from, along with attendant cronyism re business connections etc.

Im 100% for desal plants that run on solar power, they can build 1000's of them and turn this place into the promised land, we have the technology to do this and if Australia hadnt followed the US lead by abandoning science (re CSIRO privatisation etc) Aus would be the world leader in this by a big margin. Instead we are going down the track of some backward crony capitalist money grabbing scam artists in order to fill a few choice pockets with fk all regard to the environment and the people who live here, ie water bills to double just to pay for this for ever more, not just a one off event like a roof fed water tank.

[aussieboy]

So: Australian house prices up or down?

[Tiger Woods?]

Back on topic, the maximum population Australia could support is pretty close to 20 million, a quick google will bring up numerous reports to that effect:

I (and others) would suggest it is closer to 10 million. Have to take into consideration the long term damage of the soil due to salt and the phosphate runoffso onto reefs etc.

[Tiger Woods?]

I'm 100% for desal plants that run on solar power, they can build 1000's of them and turn this place into the promised land, we have the technology to do this and if Australia hadnt followed the US lead by abandoning science (re CSIRO privatisation etc) Aus would be the world leader in this by a big margin. Instead we are going down the track of some backward crony capitalist money grabbing scam artists in order to fill a few choice pockets with fk all regard to the environment and the people who live here, ie water bills to double just to pay for this for ever more, not just a one off event like a roof fed water tank.

You just about nailed it. Solar power and roof fed water tanks would solve a lot of problems. Interestingly in Qld they have finally passed some legislation to stop real estate covenants preventing people having solar hot water tanks and other environmental/energy efficiencies in their new build houses etc.

[ExecutiveSlaveBox]

You should set an example and go back to your own place then.

Jeez big families now a problem you certainly are predictable, maybe some population control or extermination is called for, get rid of the ferals eh.....................

Greedy - check

Smug - check

Arrogant - check

Zero empathy for your fellow man - check

Bardon, have you ever considered a career as a Tory MP, you are the second coming of Alan B'stard.

[aussieboy]

Greedy - check

Smug - check

Arrogant - check

Zero empathy for your fellow man - check

Bardon, have you ever considered a career as a Tory MP, you are the second coming of Alan B'stard.

He lives in Australia, so the commute could be tricky. You really need to tailor your put downs better, ESB.

BTW isn't it great we still having the Malthus debate six years into HPC.com?

[ExecutiveSlaveBox]

He lives in Australia, so the commute could be tricky. You really need to tailor your put downs better, ESB.

BTW isn't it great we still having the Malthus debate six years into HPC.com?

And on queue Bardon's fluffer, spooky how you two guy's are never logged in at the same time.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact Bardon lives in Australia thank you very much.

I just thought a guy with his obvious talents is wasted in some chickenshit property deals in OZ and really had a shot at the big time back in blightly, scamming with the creme de la creme.

Edited January 17, 2010 by ExecutiveSlaveBox

[aussieboy]

You just about nailed it. Solar power and roof fed water tanks would solve a lot of problems. Interestingly in Qld they have finally passed some legislation to stop real estate covenants preventing people having solar hot water tanks and other environmental/energy efficiencies in their new build houses etc.

I have to admit to a degree of disquiet wrt burning coal to desalinate water. How about recycling some of the grey water... for some reason this causes real and emotional issues here. However, the desal plants will solve the water problem, albeit at the expense of an odd and avoidable use of natural resources.

WRT sustainable population, maybe Australia could stop exporting so much food elsewhere at some point. Bearing in mind that we're the world's largest exporter of beef and barley, and up there for wheat, I'm not sure that foods an issue either.

What else is there on the Malthusian's list?

[aussieboy]

And on queue Bardon's fluffer, spooky how you two guy's are never logged in at the same time.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact Bardon lives in Australia thank you very much.

I just thought a guy with his obvious talents is wasted in some chickenshit property deals in OZ and really had a shot at the big time back in blightly, scamming with the creme de la creme.

Ooh, another nice ad hom, another post that reeks of quality even with an edit ("on queue", "guy's" - je-sus). Christ alone know what the thing looked like before you took the time to proof it.

You'll have to stop it: you'll have my eyes out.

[Tiger Woods?]

I love carrying capacity estimates, they continually get blown out of the water, same as house price crashes. I would love to know what Malthus estimate for oz was.

Malthus will be proven correct more or less. The oil revolution was a one off. We have damaged to water table and the soil. It is not sustainable in the long term. just because we are managing to keep the balls in the air now, doesn't mean that we will forever.

[Tiger Woods?]

I have to admit to a degree of disquiet wrt burning coal to desalinate water. How about recycling some of the grey water... for some reason this causes real and emotional issues here.

Lack of imagination of the Australian public - apparently they don;t mind crocodile s*** and roo p*** in their water, but human pee pee is a no go. Much better to just burn lots of coal or flood a river valley with some unique species.

Biodegradable...yeah mate, this'll degrade the environment like nuthin' else.

[Tiger Woods?]

WRT sustainable population, maybe Australia could stop exporting so much food elsewhere at some point. Bearing in mind that we're the world's largest exporter of beef and barley, and up there for wheat, I'm not sure that foods an issue either.

For soil salinity issue, see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinity_in_Australia

Irrigation also increases soil salinity.

Our current food production is not sustainable. We are degrading the top soil and current farming methods require continual of phosphates and oil based fertilisers. We can support more than 20 million now, but we may not be able to do so in, say 100 years time. The anti-Malthusians always ignore the incredible increase in carrying capacity of earth that the use of oil has allowed or assume that it will continue. It's not just human capital/ingenuity. it is human capital and ingenuity plus hydrocarbons. At some stage, the oil runs out or becomes so expensive that we won't be able to continue to keep farming this way. That is when the trouble will strike.