Edinburgh Facts And Figures

[SelfDoIt]

Most of those old 'pricey' tenements were built for relatively poor manual workers 100 years ago. They stink, have no cellars, no balconies, very primitive glazing and staircases are usually very grim. Then there's mice and rats infestations - they're all over the place.

There is an enourmous variation in the tenements, often linked to post codes. The nicer ones are huge, with many large rooms and massive windows. They are well sound proofed and make excellent desirable, classy homes. Even some of the smaller ones have more character and bigger rooms that the new builds.

I agree that many stairwells are a bit grim, but I've also seen some very handsome ones... in the better postcodes. Some people have problem with mice and rats.... in my experience generally related to badly installed kitchens and floors and poor hygiene/food storage, and not post-code related.

The new builds I've seen are very pokey, have low ceilings and poor noise proofing. They also have inflexible layouts and usually charge a fee for maintenance.

Give me an old tenement any day of the week. I think they are great. No need to own a car if you live in the centre of town, the public transport is excellent. They are desirable homes, I want one. I feel they are over-priced, but it isn't like they are making more of them, so as much as I hope they will fall a lot, I'm not sure they will fall that much. I'd be very happy with 20%.

SelfDoIt

[fflump]

There is an enourmous variation in the tenements, often linked to post codes. The nicer ones are huge, with many large rooms and massive windows. They are well sound proofed and make excellent desirable, classy homes. Even some of the smaller ones have more character and bigger rooms that the new builds.

I agree that many stairwells are a bit grim, but I've also seen some very handsome ones... in the better postcodes. Some people have problem with mice and rats.... in my experience generally related to badly installed kitchens and floors and poor hygiene/food storage, and not post-code related.

The new builds I've seen are very pokey, have low ceilings and poor noise proofing. They also have inflexible layouts and usually charge a fee for maintenance.

Give me an old tenement any day of the week. I think they are great. No need to own a car if you live in the centre of town, the public transport is excellent. They are desirable homes, I want one. I feel they are over-priced, but it isn't like they are making more of them, so as much as I hope they will fall a lot, I'm not sure they will fall that much. I'd be very happy with 20%.

SelfDoIt

Self Doit,

I agree with your sentiment. About the 20% drop-according to the numbers they were 20% lower in Q1 2009 (both marchmont/bruntsfield and stockbridge/comely bank). Were you tempted at that time?

[Buying]

First post here, lurked for a few years now, so hello everyone. Have to speak up in support of the tenements. I moved back to Edinburgh from the USA 2 years ago and I wasn't too keen about the tenements until I actually rented one and realised how well designed they are. I'd never lived in a city before so I was so unfamiliar with tenements. In 2009 I bought a 3 bedroom top floor in the eh10 postcode. This was after 6+ months of looking at other 3 bedroom properties, bungalows, new builds, detached homes in the Bruntsfield/Morningside/Greenbank area. For the price they had the room sizes I was after. All the tenements I've seen owned by friends in this area are lovely and so well kept (stairways could always be brighter/better, but if they are clean then thats the main thing), as others have said, large rooms, proper dining kitchens, magnificent cornicing, fancy fireplaces, bay windows, and we too still have the working bells in the kitchen for when residents in the tenements had maids. Views are fantastic from mine, and it's so quiet (top floor). It certainly doesn't "stink" there's no mice, the stairway is well maintained... the bedrooms actually have rooms for wardrobes unlike modern builds, and as I experience more towns in the UK I realise how lovely and pretty a city Edinburgh is. It'll do me until I move back 'home' to my Highlands.

Was this the best financial decision to buy in such a market? Who knows, I bought this one to be my home for now and if 3 bedrooms drop in price then so be it, it wasn't bought to make a profit.

[ccc]

I can see that tenements/flats whatever can be nice and large and all. However the simple fact remains - you own a part of a large building that you share with complete strangers. You share the stair. You share the roof. You share the foundations. You share the stomework. You share everythig apart from the little portion that is private to yourself. With this in mind - the prices demanded for this share of a small bit of a shared building is inane IMO. Some two bedders in Marchmont/Bruntsfield still up at the 250K+ bracket.

You can get a 3 bed semi detached house in a nice area of Edinburgh for that. For a little more you can get a fullyu detached house in a similar area. I just don't see how the price of these flats can be justified ? Yes you live centrally but that is not the be all and end all. Many, if not most, people actually prefer staying out of the Centre of towns/cities.

What you get for your money is so much more if you actually go for a house.

[Pole]

I can see that tenements/flats whatever can be nice and large and all. However the simple fact remains - you own a part of a large building that you share with complete strangers. You share the stair. You share the roof. You share the foundations. You share the stomework. You share everythig apart from the little portion that is private to yourself. With this in mind - the prices demanded for this share of a small bit of a shared building is inane IMO. Some two bedders in Marchmont/Bruntsfield still up at the 250K+ bracket.

You can get a 3 bed semi detached house in a nice area of Edinburgh for that. For a little more you can get a fullyu detached house in a similar area. I just don't see how the price of these flats can be justified ? Yes you live centrally but that is not the be all and end all. Many, if not most, people actually prefer staying out of the Centre of towns/cities.

What you get for your money is so much more if you actually go for a house.

Don't forget about this either:

Tenement work costs owners £50,000 each

[fflump]

Don't forget about this either:

Tenement work costs owners £50,000 each

This is a risk true. However the council has swept through Bruntsfield and Marchmont in recent years examining tenements and ordering repairs so nasty surprises should be few and far between.

Secondly, any prospective buyer of one of these flats would be mad not to have a proper survey done on the property.

[Pole]

This is a risk true. However the council has swept through Bruntsfield and Marchmont in recent years examining tenements and ordering repairs so nasty surprises should be few and far between.

Secondly, any prospective buyer of one of these flats would be mad not to have a proper survey done on the property.

maybe I'm just picky but I'm with ccc on this one.

Flats in Edinburgh are horribly overpriced full stop. OK the top shelf ones (around £300k) may be seen as nice but those that are affordable to first time buyers are simply ghastly.

BTW, mice live in walls/flors/ceilings of all old Edinbrugh tenements. Rats (lots of them) tend to concetrate in and around the New Town area.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Pole

[fflump]

maybe I'm just picky but I'm with ccc on this one.

Flats in Edinburgh are horribly overpriced full stop. OK the top shelf ones (around £300k) may be seen as nice but those that are affordable to first time buyers are simply ghastly.

BTW, mice live in walls/flors/ceilings of all old Edinbrugh tenements. Rats (lots of them) tend to concetrate in and around the New Town area.

If you don't like the possibility of having mice then buy a hermetically sealed Barratt box. All period properties can harbour mice, but unless you leave food/crumbs out they won't bother you as there will be far richer picking elsewhere on the corridor/tenement/street etc. It's not actually a big deal.

[Pole]

If you don't like the possibility of having mice then buy a hermetically sealed Barratt box. All period properties can harbour mice, but unless you leave food/crumbs out they won't bother you as there will be far richer picking elsewhere on the corridor/tenement/street etc. It's not actually a big deal.

Mice are not a great deal, unless you just spent £300k on a flat.

In order to afford to buy a place like that a person needs to earn 2xaverage salary - 'a high flyer'.

It just seems strange to me that that 'high flyer' is happy to pay £1.5k a month to live in a flat. You may argue that it's a nice flat, that mice are ok, that noisy students moving in and out all the time are ok, that there's no need for a car in Edinburgh, but come on - it's just a flat!

And to think that some 20 years ago people earning 2xaverage salary could easily buy a smart townhouse or a bungalow in this lovely city...

It truly is a lovely city, but heavily overpriced where young people spend most of their income on supporting silly house prices instead of spending in on real economy. And Scotland could do with some growth in real economy.

[ccc]

Mice are not a great deal, unless you just spent £300k on a flat.

In order to afford to buy a place like that a person needs to earn 2xaverage salary - 'a high flyer'.

It just seems strange to me that that 'high flyer' is happy to pay £1.5k a month to live in a flat. You may argue that it's a nice flat, that mice are ok, that noisy students moving in and out all the time are ok, that there's no need for a car in Edinburgh, but come on - it's just a flat!

And to think that some 20 years ago people earning 2xaverage salary could easily buy a smart townhouse or a bungalow in this lovely city...

It truly is a lovely city, but heavily overpriced where young people spend most of their income on supporting silly house prices instead of spending in on real economy. And Scotland could do with some growth in real economy.

Can't argue with any of that.

[Muswell Hillbilly]

I agree with the view that the prices are insane, but there is nothing wrong with living in a flat. I don’t share the ‘wee hoose’ mentality – that one must have a house at all costs – which is characteristic of the English and many Scots too. I vaguely know somebody who was living in a very spacious Bruntsfield tenement flat, maybe worth about 350K at recent prices, and who moved to an extremely cramped house in Sciennes for 575K! But it’s a house, so even though it has much less floor space than the previous flat, it must be worth more, mustn’t it?

In the not-too-distant future, the cheap, abundant oil that everyone has depended on up until now will no longer be so cheap or abundant. High-density housing in city centres will be even more desirable than it is now. Luckily Scotland is well prepared for this, thanks to the fact that the Victorians and Edwardians built splendid tenement flats, just like the apartment blocks that you find in mainland European cities, including the beautiful but frequently neglected kamienice in Polish cities. Even the tenement flats in more working-class areas of Edinburgh, while not as grand or spacious as those in Marchmont or Comely Bank, are still well-built, sturdy, practical homes. Compare Scottish tenements with terraced houses in England, which were mostly quite gloomy to begin with, and are now split up into multiple weirdly-shaped, impractical flats.

I agree with Pole about the windows and lack of insulation – Central European windows, consisting of two separate hinged inward-opening panes, are far more practical than our pretty but impractical sash windows. Cellars would be nice – I don’t know why there is no tradition of them in Scotland – but instead of balconies, which would probably be very little used because of the rarity of warm weather, we have bay windows.

Finally, mice are a bit of a pain, but as long as you clean fairly meticulously and do not leave food out, they’re harmless. I’m sure they’re common in mainland European apartment blocks too.

[Pole]

I agree with the view that the prices are insane, but there is nothing wrong with living in a flat. I don’t share the ‘wee hoose’ mentality – that one must have a house at all costs – which is characteristic of the English and many Scots too. I vaguely know somebody who was living in a very spacious Bruntsfield tenement flat, maybe worth about 350K at recent prices, and who moved to an extremely cramped house in Sciennes for 575K! But it’s a house, so even though it has much less floor space than the previous flat, it must be worth more, mustn’t it?

In the not-too-distant future, the cheap, abundant oil that everyone has depended on up until now will no longer be so cheap or abundant. High-density housing in city centres will be even more desirable than it is now. Luckily Scotland is well prepared for this, thanks to the fact that the Victorians and Edwardians built splendid tenement flats, just like the apartment blocks that you find in mainland European cities, including the beautiful but frequently neglected kamienice in Polish cities. Even the tenement flats in more working-class areas of Edinburgh, while not as grand or spacious as those in Marchmont or Comely Bank, are still well-built, sturdy, practical homes. Compare Scottish tenements with terraced houses in England, which were mostly quite gloomy to begin with, and are now split up into multiple weirdly-shaped, impractical flats.

I agree with Pole about the windows and lack of insulation – Central European windows, consisting of two separate hinged inward-opening panes, are far more practical than our pretty but impractical sash windows. Cellars would be nice – I don’t know why there is no tradition of them in Scotland – but instead of balconies, which would probably be very little used because of the rarity of warm weather, we have bay windows.

Finally, mice are a bit of a pain, but as long as you clean fairly meticulously and do not leave food out, they’re harmless. I’m sure they’re common in mainland European apartment blocks too.

My only reason for taking it out on Edinburgh tenements was their prices. At reasonable prices they'd be ok to me. I agree that there's nothing wrong with the idea of living in a flat but flat will always be a flat. And should be priced like one (i.e. affordable for young people without overstretching themselves). Many of my friends who own really nice flats openly admit that if they were young today there's no way they'd afford them.

I'm just a guest in this city so this situation doesn't bother me too much, but if I was young and Scottish and wanted to start a family here I'd be gutted big time. It seems a shame that so much money is wasted on old bricks and mortar.

Yeah, kamienice have been neglected in socialism but that's because for many years they were used by council tenants. It's changing now.

And I do miss cellars - very handy for keeping bicycles.

[noodle doodle]

I can see both sides of the flat v house argument here, having lived for 10 years in an edinburgh tenement before shifting to ma wee hoose

renting a flat is great, maintenance problems etc are your landlord's concern (unless of course it gets really bad, one let rainwater drip off the kitchen light for 2 years).

Owning a flat is a different kettle of fish. I owned a top floor flat, had to get roof repairs done, every time it rained after i was staring at the ceiling watching for staining or hearing for drips, then someone buggers the entry system, wait for the council to fix? or grin and bear it and fix it yourself and try and get money back? Or leave it altogether? Then sharing a garden with 14 other flats,..

Once i had a kid it was highly impractical lugging a baby up 3 flights of stairs so off to the burbs, and joy! my own garden! if anything breaks I can fix it without needing a public enquiry with the other owners. Of course the local amenities now consist of Morrisons and a child-unfriendly pub. It's a bus ride into town rather than a walk.

Swings n roundabouts in the end, very much dependent on renting/buying and what your personal circumstances are

[ccc]

It's all to do with the price. Nothing wrong with flats and would happily live in one myself - FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

Being expected to pay quarter to half a million for a small section of a building to share with strangers in a pleasant area of Edinburgh ?

Personally I think you would have to be insane. Of course at half the price I can see the attraction.

2 bedders in Marchmont or Bruntsfield for 120-150k seems reasonable to me. Anyone know when they were at these levels ? 2003 or so I presume ? Not long ago was it....

[fflump]

It's all to do with the price. Nothing wrong with flats and would happily live in one myself - FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

Being expected to pay quarter to half a million for a small section of a building to share with strangers in a pleasant area of Edinburgh ?

Personally I think you would have to be insane. Of course at half the price I can see the attraction.

2 bedders in Marchmont or Bruntsfield for 120-150k seems reasonable to me. Anyone know when they were at these levels ? 2003 or so I presume ? Not long ago was it....

These flats were £120k 10 years ago. At that time base rates were 6% and average mortgage rates around 8%.

Pretty much a low point as they were around £90-100k 10 years earlier.

[ccc]

These flats were £120k 10 years ago. At that time base rates were 6% and average mortgage rates around 8%.

Pretty much a low point as they were around £90-100k 10 years earlier.

Thanks for that.

1990 - 100k

2000 - 120k

2008 - 275k

I don't think expecting these flats to drop to 150k or less is anything extreme ?

Apart from interest rates, which are of course very important - pretty much everything else looks worse for Edinburgh today than it did in the preceding 20 years.

And even interest rates on mortgages look to be on the rise already.

[fflump]

Thanks for that.

1990 - 100k

2000 - 120k

2008 - 275k

I don't think expecting these flats to drop to 150k or less is anything extreme ?

Apart from interest rates, which are of course very important - pretty much everything else looks worse for Edinburgh today than it did in the preceding 20 years.

And even interest rates on mortgages look to be on the rise already.

BoE base rates in 1990 were 14%. Mortgage rates even higher. The early 90's were arguably worse than today because we had the double wammy of recession and high interest rates.

Even in 2000 base rates were 6%.

Drops to the levels that you feel represent fair value will require massive hikes in interest rates, not just modest rises. There is no reason why the BoE would do this so I don't think that drops on that scale are likely.

I'm happy to wager £100 to the charity of your choice that average 2-beds in Marchont/Bruntsfield do not drop below £175k in the next (you choose the timeframe).

[ccc]

BoE base rates in 1990 were 14%. Mortgage rates even higher. The early 90's were arguably worse than today because we had the double wammy of recession and high interest rates.

Even in 2000 base rates were 6%.

Drops to the levels that you feel represent fair value will require massive hikes in interest rates, not just modest rises. There is no reason why the BoE would do this so I don't think that drops on that scale are likely.

I'm happy to wager £100 to the charity of your choice that average 2-beds in Marchont/Bruntsfield do not drop below £175k in the next (you choose the timeframe).

But the BoE interest rates mean little to actual mortgage rates these days.

In real terms I am certain they will drop to that level again. I see no reasons why not. The outlook is not good.

Could take 2 years - could take 10. I am certain it will happen though. That could be a long wager !!!

[fflump]

But the BoE interest rates mean little to actual mortgage rates these days.

In real terms I am certain they will drop to that level again. I see no reasons why not. The outlook is not good.

Could take 2 years - could take 10. I am certain it will happen though. That could be a long wager !!!

I am certain there will be strong periods of growth and also periods of falls in a 10 year period ccc! Are you familiar with the phrase that even a stopped clock is right twice a day?

[Muswell Hillbilly]

I’ve just got around to reviewing some of the recently published sale prices in my local area. I’m afraid people have still been paying completely silly money for flats in Marchmont.

• 76/5 Thirlestane Road: huge (150 m²) 4-bed flat in good condition, OO 400K from mid March, sold for 410K on 14 June

• 60 (1F2) Thirlestane Road, genuine 3-bed flat in need of decoratiom, OO 290K from early March, sold for 350K on 17 June

And more evidence of maindoor madness:

• 29 Thirlestane Road, 2-bed – yes, 2-bed – maindoor flat in excellent condition with en-suite second bathroom and enclosed private rear garden, OO 355K from mid April, sold for £407,704 on 25 June!

The buyer of this one got a better deal:

• 59 (3F2) Spottiswoode Street, 3-bed flat in need of decoration, OO 270K from late March, sold for £291,500 on 15 June

The adjacent flat to that, same size and also in need of repair, sold for 273K during the recent ‘bottom’ of the market in early 2009.

Based on this tiny sample size, and a few other flats here and there, it seems to me that prices in my area have plateaud at a high level after their temporary lows in winter 2008/09. I believe prices will come down again in the autumn, due to the massively increased supply, but we shall see. Is anyone in other areas seeing a similar picture?

[fflump]

Typical Marchmont madness!

By the way MH-what's your take on this:

http://www.espc.com/buying/284352.html

2 Warrender Park Terrace, EDINBURGH, EH9 1JA

Maindoor Flat, Offers Over £305,000, Reference: 284352

Desirable street, nice outlook. Really struggling to sell all year (back on the market again). have you viewed it?

[ccc]

The skewing of all this on the headline figures is apparent.

I think I said about a year ago when FTB flat's do eventually start selling again - YOY Edinburgh figures could be Minus 15-20% or something !! No reason to change that thinking IMO.

I can imagine the EN and Hootsman stories !!

Or would it just go very quiet in the media for a year or so.

[geneer]

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/mortgageandpropertynews/Capital-house-prices-keep-on.6462749.jp

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« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryPublished Date:

07 August 2010

By SUE GYFORD

THE average price of a house in the Capital has shot up to £235,772, according to the latest figures from the Edinburgh Solicitors Property Centre.

But house prices in the Capital are beginning to plateau, experts have warned, particularly for smaller properties.

The average price for July is up £7966 on the previous month, and represents an 11.1 per cent increase on the same time last year.

ADVERTISEMENTHowever, the rise in the overall average is largely due to rising prices for larger homes.

The average price of a three-bedroom house is up 8 per cent on last year to £271,211, while the average for a one-bed flat rose just 0.6 per cent, to £129,060.

The Registers of Scotland said earlier this week that their figures showed the average price of a house in the capital between April and June was £213,915, up just 1 per cent on the previous quarter, and a 7.8 per cent annual rise. Figures cover all residential sales.

The ESPC figures show that the number of homes sold in the Capital has risen for six straight months, although this rise is also plateauing.

Business analyst for ESPC, David Marshall, predicted that average prices would be likely to plateau across the board around the end of this year - and could even drop slightly.

He said he was surprised this had not already happened. He said: "I wouldn't have thought prices would have stayed so high this long into the year. We had expected that the price over the course of the year would remain pretty much unchanged.

"Possibly not in August, but certainly by the end of the year I think we should start to see prices easing off. I would have thought that by December this year and January/February of next they would be back at the level that we saw at the beginning of this year. We expect it to be a fairly short-term spike."

Steven Currie, director of lettings and sales agent Murray and Currie, said he was "amazed" to see figures that showed prices still rising, given that demand for rental properties was so high.

He said: "I feel that it's painting a picture that's not quite reflected in reality. The number of lettings that we're doing right now is going through the roof, because people can't afford the deposit for flats, they can't deliver a 25 per cent deposit and so they don't have any confidence in the market."

He warned that there was a danger that prices would not only plateau, but could sink again.

I do think a double dip is a real danger," he said

This is a difficult one to parse as theres talk of both a plateau and "short term spikes".

With the statement "back at the level that we saw at the beginning of this year" it sounds to me as of they're expecting YOY to plateau.

As in this summers "gains" will melt away to nothing.

Edited August 7, 2010 by geneer

[Muswell Hillbilly]

Latest analysis of a few sales around my way in Marchmont, now that the latest Registers of Scotland data has been published …

75/5 Warrender Park Road, a distinctive double upper flat with three bedrooms, was on the market for OA 335, then FP 325, and sold for £310,000. This one is very interesting because it sold previously in August 2007 for £356,999, after being OO 245. That’s a loss of 13.2% over three years.

Other than that exception, the rest are mostly flats going for a little bit over the OA price, e.g. 280K when it’s OA 260K, with a few silly prices too. The most amazing one is a two-bedroom maindoor flat in Warrender Park Road (number 91), OO 385, which sold for £400,000! The schedule does say ‘The garden shed will be included in the sale’, so I suppose that explains it …

[fflump]

Latest analysis of a few sales around my way in Marchmont, now that the latest Registers of Scotland data has been published …

75/5 Warrender Park Road, a distinctive double upper flat with three bedrooms, was on the market for OA 335, then FP 325, and sold for £310,000. This one is very interesting because it sold previously in August 2007 for £356,999, after being OO 245. That’s a loss of 13.2% over three years.

Other than that exception, the rest are mostly flats going for a little bit over the OA price, e.g. 280K when it’s OA 260K, with a few silly prices too. The most amazing one is a two-bedroom maindoor flat in Warrender Park Road (number 91), OO 385, which sold for £400,000! The schedule does say ‘The garden shed will be included in the sale’, so I suppose that explains it …

I remember that maindoor-only a 2-bed I think? Very strong price and not good value compared to other property types in the area.

Not much to report here. Family homes or potential family homes still selling strong. I viewed this place a while back on Viewforth terrace-a renovation job (no central heating upstairs, dodgy wiring, damp, uncoventional layour for a semi-). It was OA 475, went for £513k. I've attached the schedule.

oa-viewforth475.pdf

oa-viewforth475.pdf