Yorkshire Golden Triangle - Harrogate & Around

[s2r2005]

hi drew, there is a very helpful 'should we rent or buy' thread on the main page where you will get more sensible adive from more people than this sub-forum. good luck.

[the flying pig]

Although I've not lived there for many years, I'm a reasonably frequent visitor & know a couple of people who are heavily involved in property there. By my reckoning the Harrogate property market could easily be amongst the handful of most overheated in the country.

Nothing epitomises this more than the fact that a year or two ago late 70s detached legobrick Barratt-type houses in the Jennyfields estate [you may have read about it over Christmas, a 90-something year old woman was killed in her flat after some youths set light to bins outside, despite having a HG postcode this particular part of town really is no nicer than any other part of yorkshire, it's not really walking distance from town, is abysmally badly served by shops/amentities, and the school there is in the middle of a big council estate with a demographic to match] were routinely changing hands well inside the 3% stamp duty band [i.e. over a quarter of a million quid each, easily as expensive as you'd get in some reasonably nice towns down south which are in commuting distance of London]. which is mind-boggling when you think about the sorts of jobs the people on that estate have.

Mind you, living standards in Harrogate generally are something of a mystery to me. Almost nobody has a particularly good job but a bizarrely high proportion of people seem to be loaded. So who knows, maybe prices can be sustained.

Anyway, you've got over £400k for one of those places at the end of ******* Avenue? Fantastic, fantastic money. Hang onto it for a couple of years and you'll be able to get somewhere on the Duchy for that money [i'm exaggerating, and of course you'd need to somehow get a decent real return on it, which could be a challenge].

The family home private rental market in Harrogate has more to offer than you might think... there are plenty of idiots with more money than sense in town who bought one or more 'investment' properties in the early part of the boom thinking that they could probably rent it out to a family of americans from menwith hill or something, but overestimated the relatively modest number of these that there are, and underestimated the yanks' finickiness when it comes to renting a place that's in anything other than tip-top condition.

But everything's uncertain, and a risk, of course. If you can comfortably afford to buy the new place and think you'd be happy living there then maybe you should do that? You could look to see if there are any real bargains on the rental side, you know, possibly making a few really aggressive/speculative offers to desperate landlords if there are any.

Edited January 29, 2009 by the flying pig

[bunn123]

Hi Everyone

Harrogate prices fell in the last recession. The lady at the bank informed me that they put thier house on the market a few weeks before the last crash for £75,000 and had an offer from a builder in the first week for £72,000 and they did not accept.They sold the house a year later for £62,000.

I live in an area in Harrogate that when the housing market is moving houses sell in a week or two. A number have been on the market for weeks. Hunters has just advertised a house in the property paper inside the Harrogate advertiser in our area as new on the market. It has been on the market for weeks. Also advertised near the back of the paper are 2 offers on repo properties.

Prices will fall but only when people become realistic and stop believing that Harrogate and the golden triangle are immune.

Just sit tight and wait

[Brave New World]

Here are a couple of good examples that will test the market, all on the favourable South side of town

House 1 is a token of how far the market has risen. Nicely turned out but an absolute rip off considering these houses going for £100k in 2001!!!!!!!

House 1

House 2 next road down to first house, not as insane price but still silly money, house prices circa 2000 going rate was 60-80k!

House 2

It would be interesting to see how and why these owners could justify the massive price increases in a depression! Bet they must have very confident agents!

Feel free anyone else to add Hazzer houses that could be used as a good yardstick for price watching.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Brave New World

[the flying pig]

Here are a couple of good examples that will test the market, all on the favourable South side of town

House 1 is a token of how far the market has risen. Nicely turned out but an absolute rip off considering these houses going for £100k in 2001!!!!!!!

House 1

House 2 next road down to first house, not as insane price but still silly money, house prices circa 2000 going rate was 60-80k!

House 2

It would be interesting to see how and why these owners could justify the massive price increases in a depression! Bet they must have very confident agents!

Feel free anyone else to add Hazzer houses that could be used as a good yardstick for price watching.

those asking prices are obviously a bit daft - peak and then some - but i'd be interested to see what they actually sell for in the end...

[Si1]

The sensible person in me thinks we should go into rented and wait for further price falls but the other part of me thinks that we shouldn't put our lives on hold!.

I think you'l find that cryogenically freeezing yourselves would put your lives on hold, as would going to prison, but it's been medically proven that renting doesn't, much - Harrogate restaurants do allow renters in - but you have to have the table by the door

[tinecu]

http://www.home.co.uk/guides/house_prices_...mp;endyear=2008

Looks like a crash to me

[Brave New World]

those asking prices are obviously a bit daft - peak and then some - but i'd be interested to see what they actually sell for in the end...

Just to note, the first gaff is on for £230k

The second is on for £219k

Like you say will be very interesting. House on Gray Street close by was on for £179k and it was in tip top condition. 18 months ago they were going for £200k. This was on for 4 months and didn't sell.

http://www.home.co.uk/guides/house_prices_...mp;endyear=2008

Looks like a crash to me

Great site!

[the flying pig]

this is hilariously bad.

take peak prices and add ten grand for good measure. on jennyfields

LINK

[the flying pig]

if you look on this thread someone has devised a very natty extra for firefox that enables you to trace house price changes over time.

upsetting really to see what happened in harrogate - prices doubling in not much more than a couple of years. very bad news for everyone except the obvious.

but you can see a couple of falls starting to sneak in. what looks like a reposession in borobridge fell by 47% between apr 07 and jan 09. another repo in knaresboro fell by over 40% between june 08 and dec 08.

so very few sales, but those sales that are happening seem to be at roundabout 2004 prices?

[Brave New World]

if you look on this thread someone has devised a very natty extra for firefox that enables you to trace house price changes over time.

upsetting really to see what happened in harrogate - prices doubling in not much more than a couple of years. very bad news for everyone except the obvious.

but you can see a couple of falls starting to sneak in. what looks like a reposession in borobridge fell by 47% between apr 07 and jan 09. another repo in knaresboro fell by over 40% between june 08 and dec 08.

so very few sales, but those sales that are happening seem to be at roundabout 2004 prices?

Nice garden but dull and lifeless inside and in the awful Jen. Would much rather by a period terrace close to the town so you feel like you actually live in Harrogate as oppose to paying Harrogate prices for living on an out of town estate.

Yeah FP I am seeing late 04/05 prices but you will get a lot more stubbornness in Harrogate – using mummy and daddy’s money to prop up lives etc.

Its certainly in the post though, we both know folk have to move and certainly the culture of having outgoings as big as your earnings, living month to month keeping up with the Harrogate set will factor more and more as jobs losses continue, especially in Leeds.

I have tried to get the tracker program on my home laptop but won’t download annoyingly!!!!!!!! Property Bee. It gets blocked at work.

Another ‘interesting’ one to keep check of:

Two semis on Leeds Road near the Total petrol station and great access to the local tyre garage, one of friends at school lived used to live there. Both semis were brought about a 18 months ago and converted into flats. They were finished about a 6 months ago and originally had a big sign outside reading “Exciting investment opportunity” ……yeah certainly exciting but in the worse possible way.

Now up with Myring and Heward. Five flats from 166k to 152k.

http://www.myringandheward.co.uk/external/...rty-search.html

You have to love some of the jaunty angle pics by the EA! And the strategically taken shots of the road with no traffic on it……anyone would think it wasn’t on the busiest and main road into and out of Harrogate from Leeds! For some reason they haven’t mentioned the 24hr petrol station and access to a great range of tyres literally next door.

Could be an interesting one to sit back and watch.

[jaspers]

Two semis on Leeds Road near the Total petrol station and great access to the local tyre garage, one of friends at school lived used to live there. Both semis were brought about a 18 months ago and converted into flats. They were finished about a 6 months ago and originally had a big sign outside reading “Exciting investment opportunity” ……yeah certainly exciting but in the worse possible way.

Now up with Myring and Heward. Five flats from 166k to 152k.

http://www.myringandheward.co.uk/external/...rty-search.html

You have to love some of the jaunty angle pics by the EA! And the strategically taken shots of the road with no traffic on it……anyone would think it wasn’t on the busiest and main road into and out of Harrogate from Leeds! For some reason they haven’t mentioned the 24hr petrol station and access to a great range of tyres literally next door.

Could be an interesting one to sit back and watch.

Drive past this everyday, would love to daub some HPC graffiti on those signs! "Soon to be auctioned" "Buy today, negative equity tomorrow" or something like that.

Annoys me how conversions like this get planning permission in the first place.

[the flying pig]

...Another ‘interesting’ one to keep check of:

Two semis on Leeds Road near the Total petrol station and great access to the local tyre garage, one of friends at school lived used to live there. Both semis were brought about a 18 months ago and converted into flats. They were finished about a 6 months ago and originally had a big sign outside reading “Exciting investment opportunity” ……yeah certainly exciting but in the worse possible way.

Now up with Myring and Heward. Five flats from 166k to 152k.

http://www.myringandheward.co.uk/external/...rty-search.html

You have to love some of the jaunty angle pics by the EA! And the strategically taken shots of the road with no traffic on it……anyone would think it wasn’t on the busiest and main road into and out of Harrogate from Leeds! For some reason they haven’t mentioned the 24hr petrol station and access to a great range of tyres literally next door.

Could be an interesting one to sit back and watch.

swive me... they look like just about the worst sort of dwelling possible.

on the 'three times income' rule you'd have to be earning fifty grand a year to live there

i know that a fool is born every minute, especially in harrogate, but i still, surely, can't imagine any of those fetching even a hundred grand... they just look sh1t - so much nicer to live in a small house or flat on one of the better harrogate council estates for that kind of money...

[Brave New World]

Drive past this everyday, would love to daub some HPC graffiti on those signs! "Soon to be auctioned" "Buy today, negative equity tomorrow" or something like that.

Annoys me how conversions like this get planning permission in the first place.

I have had the very same temptation every morning when I pass it! “Put yourself in debt and keep the developer in his Mclaren SLR”

PS like the Kes avator thingy.

swive me... they look like just about the worst sort of dwelling possible.

on the 'three times income' rule you'd have to be earning fifty grand a year to live there

i know that a fool is born every minute, especially in harrogate, but i still, surely, can't imagine any of those fetching even a hundred grand... they just look sh1t - so much nicer to live in a small house or flat on one of the better harrogate council estates for that kind of money...

These types of developments are a joke. Where two families lived comfortably you now have the potential for 10 grown people to be living there given the potential limits on lending. They probably have the ‘Ann Frank’ apartment hidden away in a ceiling recess somewhere. The only difference between this and a hostel is your own locked door, some laminate and some ceiling spot lights!

Anyway sit back and enjoy!

[the flying pig]

...These types of developments are a joke. Where two families lived comfortably you now have the potential for 10 grown people to be living there given the potential limits on lending...

i don't think i've ever seen anything like it. buying a place of that size might make sense for a weekday bolt-hole in London, New York, or whatever, you know, somewhere to crash for a couple of nights a week before going back to see the family...

but spending £150k on it in harrogate, as a place to live... i can't make head or tail of it... well, i suppose the 'investment' poster was a clue as to the target market... but, i mean, why would you rent a little shithole like that instead of somewhere proper? how much could they possibly rent one out for? the rental yield would be miserable.

[Meepstar]

The fact that Harrogate (and surrounding areas) has good schools, beautiful architecture, lots of greenery, excellent amenities, and good connections to Leeds, York, Bradford (and, at a push, Sheffield, Manchester, Newcastle), means that Harrogate properties will be always be desirable, popular, and retain value no matter what the economy does.

And if they aren't and don't, I can think of far worse places to be stuck because you can't afford to sell.

[Brave New World]

The fact that Harrogate (and surrounding areas) has good schools, beautiful architecture, lots of greenery, excellent amenities, and good connections to Leeds, York, Bradford (and, at a push, Sheffield, Manchester, Newcastle), means that Harrogate properties will be always be desirable, popular, and retain value no matter what the economy does.

And if they aren't and don't, I can think of far worse places to be stuck because you can't afford to sell.

Conversely areas like this have more to loose, certainly the area is lagging behind the general UK market as folk have a little more in reserve to stave off any work problems etc – bank of mummy and daddy on Duchy!

Record low interest rates have also helped BUT when you see lower rung housing going from circa 50k to touching 200k in a little under 10 years you know there is going to be a kicking to be had in the market – FTB’s who live in these old type of terraces are on Leeds wages, with Leeds employment market looking shaky to say the least there is no justification to be paying 5x salary + to buy a house.

Certainly I have seen a 10-15% fall in house prices – we are talking well decorated nice 2-3 bed terraces that would have flown off the market but have circa 10% reductions and they are sticking.

Fortunately the banks do not discriminate too much in terms of Harrogate having the Stray, good schools etc – it is of little relevance when banks are and THANKFULLY will continue to ask for 15% deposits. Everyone my age lives for going out, going on holiday and buying nice clothes – they do not and cannot save! My age group are also sadly the first out of the door when it comes to redundancy! So factor in rising interest rates, continued job losses and I feel the market has just as far to fall as everywhere else, certainly some would argue further as recent years have squed people’s perspectives on what actually is value for money – 250k for some grot box on Jennyfields for god’s sake!

And the fact it is a nice place has had no effect on the plunge in sales in the area across property types.

PS There are worse places to be stuck but imagine being repossessed in Harrogate living in rented and still seeing signs of supposed opulence?!

[the flying pig]

Yeah, ‘meepstar’ comes across as fairly severely misguided – certainly a statement like “Harrogate properties will be always be desirable, popular, and retain value no matter what the economy does” is pure estate agent drivel.

Harrogate prices can and will take a beating in a recession – they certainly did last time round, in the early to mid 90s.

The fact that it’s a nice place does indeed mean that Harrogate will always be significantly more expensive than almost all parts of Yorkshire – but when the rest of the country & surrounding areas crash then so does Harrogate. I'd expect the ratio of prices in Harrogate to those anywhere else to stay more or less constant over time.

If anything one might guess that Harrogate might have further to fall than most areas – the pace of price increases this decade there has been terrifying, a classic speculative bubble pattern if ever I saw one. My parents had a bit of a dabble in Harrogate property ‘investment’ a little while ago – they bought a small house on Jennyfields in early 2005, and then spent a few months doing it up and deciding what to do with it – they’d been planning to rent it out but once they realised what an abysmal yield they’d get on it they decided to sell… the work they’d done on it was, by any standard, very naff, horrible patterned tiles in the kitchen and stuff like that, clearly chosen by an older person and out of step with current fashions… but when they sold in late 2005 the price had somehow increased from about £175k to £210k, an increase of over 20% in a matter of months.

Lunacy.

Edited March 27, 2009 by the flying pig

[the flying pig]

looks like things are still booming.

latest figures from http://www.houseprices.co.uk show that there were a princely 30 completed transactions in the HG postcode area [i.e. all of harrogate, knaresboro, ripon, & so on] in february 2009.

i remember reading that there are now almost 60,000 households in the harrogate district, if things continue at this rate, we'll be looking at 12*30 = 360 moves per year, and an average length of stay in a house by a household of 60k/360 = 167 years.

either that or sellers will get real.

februarys are usually quiet-ish but feb 08 sales were over 5 times feb 09, and feb 07 over 8 times...

[Brave New World]

Thanks TFP, interesting info and puts the mexican stand off into perspective. Property lower end 150-230k seems to have dropped 10-15% but no more and i still fail to see any real value when put into context of what is happening in the wider economy.

Certainly the stats point to no one being in a position or inclined to buy which kind of kills the misnomar of deisrability acting as a shield to HG prices.

Update on one of the houses i was keen on watching, off the market and went past it and the post was up but no sign, hinting at a withdrawl from the market.

House nos 2

Radiculously priced terraced still on at £230k!!!!! (Rental property on that road is at £580-£700 pm)

House 1

[jaspers]

Thought I'd share this one. Nice area, nice houses, good schools.

Peak £315k, Last Sold Price £200k

Looked round both houses. The one that sold Jan '08 was marketed at 320k. The one that sold Dec'08 was initially marketed at 310k.

Anyone do better? (Nice area, nice houses, good schools only!)

[the flying pig]

yeah, i mean, harrogate is nice and harrogate is expensive, always has been in my lifetime, probably always will be. normal people on normal wages [without help from the bank of mummy and daddy or 'the inheritance'] can't live in the nicest areas and never will be able to be. these are facts that, i think, most people are comfortable with.

but these sorts of arguments can't, of course, be used to justify any prices, e.g. no-one would take me seriously if i said, "oh yeah, a three bedroomed shitheap on st andrews avenue is worth half a million quid because it's only a mile and a half from betty's tea shoppe"... i'd blatantly be lying if i said this... and i half suspect that many harrogate prices have reached a kind of topping point that, with hindsight, will be seen to be only marginally less ridiculous than my straw man set out above...

we'll see.

Edited April 3, 2009 by the flying pig

[jaspers]

The link posted shows prices have fallen by over 35% from peak. These houses are not in bad areas, they're not 'apartments', Harrogate prices are not immune to falls and the evidence is already here.

[stu531]

Hi,

We're based in Harrogate. We sold in January, have rented since, with a view to looking at the housing dip. However in the last *2* weeks we've noticed that the few properties we've had a nosey at, have gone within a couple of days. It's as if it's gone crazy buying again.

Has anyone noticed this in Harrogate or elsewhere around? I was really looking forward to an ongoing decrease but it seems to have reached a point of inflexion.

I'm hoping it'a temporary blip in demand...

Stu

[the flying pig]

Hi,

We're based in Harrogate. We sold in January, have rented since, with a view to looking at the housing dip. However in the last *2* weeks we've noticed that the few properties we've had a nosey at, have gone within a couple of days. It's as if it's gone crazy buying again.

Has anyone noticed this in Harrogate or elsewhere around? I was really looking forward to an ongoing decrease but it seems to have reached a point of inflexion.

I'm hoping it'a temporary blip in demand...

Stu

i'm currently monitoring dozens of properties in harrogate via property bee and literally the only thing i've noticed happen in the last three weeks or so is that today Dacre, Son, and Hartley changed the listing of all of their older terraced houses from 'X bedroomed terraced property' to 'X bedroomed character property'. i guess it made a change from playing minesweeper.

i can only surmise that you were unlucky, happened to be looking at properties that were particularly desirable or perhaps sensibly priced [not something i've encountered much of].

Edited April 21, 2009 by the flying pig