200,000 'social Homes' Given To Immigrants

[Fancypants]

If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, it probably is a fish.

If I remember correctly BC was saying that a lot of the excess demand for BTL could be pegged to levels of imigration squeezing the supply/demand curve, that BTL'ers were explicitly running off this and that it was a core driver for demand that would support the BTL market for far longer than most others believed It matters not whether immigration leads to direct occupation of council housing or private sector BTL or some intermediate HA type accommodation the numbers being relesed now show the huge level of occupancy that has occured and it simply shifts native demand for council occupation further into the private sector.

Thus I call BC's observations and predictions to be pretty much bang on.

I don't necessarily disagree with much of that - but its all relatively peripheral in terms of the engine that is really driving the credit bubble and asset boom. Yeah, immigration is continuing to feed the monster, but it is not the monster itself.

[OnlyMe]

I don't necessarily disagree with much of that - but its all relatively peripheral in terms of the engine that is really driving the credit bubble and asset boom. Yeah, immigration is continuing to feed the monster, but it is not the monster itself.

Certainly a combination of the two - immigration being a key driver of demand (as well as overall speculation), lax lending and low rate policy being the facilitator for escalating price. Without the demand (perceived or artual) most of that money would stay in the bank unlent.

[Andy Jones]

Most immigration is muslim, low skilled and based on family links so there are now lot of dependants who now have 'rights' to access the social pool of housing.

200,000 social homes is a high proportion of the existing stock, for ever lower paid UK workers. Thier parents fought and died for this country - and paid for all the homes built in this community pool of starter homes to have a change of some sort of standard of living, working in the ranks of unstable employment conditions.

Its amusing what attutude some bearish posters have about supposed lazy workers - its mass immigration that is the root cause of the benefits culture, huge growth of government put forward by both parties, the 'lazy' displaced, and of course, the huge housing inflation which will tear every aspect of young people's lives apart one way or another, from forming a family, a pension, to perhaps a future collapse of the welfare state.

Why can't the arrivals rent on the minmum wage if they are so great?

The truth is you are paying the landlords income for them from your huge taxes - even if you get them on the minimum wage, that's the reason why people are fighting for mass immigration, which has no benefit whatsoever for the native population - the reverse.

I don't care if they are muslim or low skilled and the Polish did more fighting and dying against the Nazis than your family. Fact is some damn lazy Brit workers are feeling the heat from new Polish workers that, somehow, some why, employers want to hire. Why could that be? Willing to work for lower wages... maybe. Willing to graft... more like it. See the story about the lazy cleaner at my Mums place of work.

The new arrivals do rent. They aren't in the homeless shelters, they aren't on the street so they must be somewhere.

Now if we could just send the 2.2 million work shy Brits over to Poland that would really help out the housing situation even if we kept them on the dole.

ANDY

[Europa]

There was a guy who posted on here a while back. He worked in a factory where most people were being paid £10/12 per hour. They were being told to take large reductions or their jobs would go to Poles who were happy to work for about £8 per hour, if my memory serves me correctly.

You don't need evidence it's happening, it's one of the basic laws of economics, supply and demand. When supply rises, prices drop. Only an idiot would think otherwise.

Come off it, Wicky

You vaguely remember that some bloke may have said something on an internet forum? And you "don't need evidence"?

I think we can safely assume that this is another right-wing myth.

[iamnumerate]

I don't care if they are muslim

ANDY

Were you in coma over the weekend and in July 2005 ?

[OnlyMe]

Come off it, Wicky

You vaguely remember that some bloke may have said something on an internet forum? And you "don't need evidence"?

I think we can safely assume that this is another right-wing myth.

Computer says no.

It does actually happen. Not all cases are as stark and obvious as this one though. More often than not it involves notionally shifting work/production/jobs around the country from one outlet/distribution centre to another, removing jobs in one centre and then hiring (usually on much inferior terms) at the ohter locations.

Is this a left-wing enough source for you?

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=8001

[dog]

Come off it, Wicky

You vaguely remember that some bloke may have said something on an internet forum? And you "don't need evidence"?

I think we can safely assume that this is another right-wing myth.

Fair enough, then let me give you a first hand example. There is a shortage of contract engineers at the moment. The going rate however is £25-35 an hour. This is more than 20% lower than 6 years ago. I queried this with an agent. They told me that they can bring people over from India and Poland who are very pleased to work for these rates.

[Europa]

Fair enough, then let me give you a first hand example. There is a shortage of contract engineers at the moment. The going rate however is £25-35 an hour. This is more than 20% lower than 6 years ago. I queried this with an agent. They told me that they can bring people over from India and Poland who are very pleased to work for these rates.

£35 an hour? That equates to, what, 67K per annum? They haven't exactly driven you into the gutter, have they?

That aside, I take your point. I don't doubt that there has been an impact on some sectors. However the idea that factory workers were fired on mass and replaced by two pounds per hour immigrants is, I suspect, bunk.

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

£35 an hour? That equates to, what, 67K per annum? They haven't exactly driven you into the gutter, have they?

That aside, I take your point. I don't doubt that there has been an impact on some sectors. However the idea that factory workers were fired on mass and replaced by two pounds per hour immigrants is, I suspect, bunk.

The Poles produce first class Editors who work for less than your salary, always remember that.

[OnlyMe]

That aside, I take your point. I don't doubt that there has been an impact on some sectors. However the idea that factory workers were fired on mass and replaced by two pounds per hour immigrants is, I suspect, bunk.

No need to be fired, just not hired, shifted or outsourced, temporary and seasonal jobs have been particulalry affected.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c.../70613-0014.htm

13 Jun 2007 : Column 832

The people who seem to be benefiting from the situation are, as my hon. Friend pointed out, the companies that are taking on labour exclusively through gangmasters and agencies. As each new wave of migrants comes in, the pressure is on the existing worker to take a slightly lower wage—because if he or she does not do the job at that rate, there are plenty of people who have just come into the country who will. Therefore, there are problems on that front, too, and they are beginning to stir up problems within the migrant worker communities, as well as between the migrant workers and the indigenous community. The gangmasters are milking the system. Not all of them are unscrupulous and rogues, but many are, so we need to tighten up the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act to ensure that there is real discipline and that the regulatory authority steps in to ensure that those people are receiving at least the minimum wage, if not more.

If the companies are benefiting, their shareholders are benefiting. What are they doing in return? Absolutely nothing, as far as I can see. They might say that they pay the business rate. Well, that goes into a central pot. If they are making extra profit, no doubt they will lose that anyway if they are multinationals, so I cannot see what those people are giving back to the local community. They are just milking the low-wage migrant community worker and not putting anything back into the community. They are as responsible as anyone else for the problems that we face. They need to ensure that wages are at the right level and that their workers are looked after.

Someone came to my surgery and said, “My daughter went to an agency to get a job and was told by the gangmaster, ‘If you don’t speak Polish I can’t put you on the assembly line, because they all speak Polish, they won’t accept you, and you won’t be able to communicate with them in any way.’” If that is happening, it is no wonder that youth unemployment is on the rise. Local people cannot now get jobs in the factories in which historically they worked. I have tried each and every way to find a solution to the problem. As far as I am aware, in the past five or six years no new company or organisation has arrived in my constituency. There has been some expansion in jobs, but not a great deal. Five or six years ago such low-paid jobs were done by local people; now, they are done by migrant workers.

Where have the indigenous population gone? These are people who do not have cars and cannot travel to Peterborough or Cambridge to find a job, so where are they in the local community? I table questions about invalidity benefit, jobseeker’s allowance and so on, but there seems to be no correlation that defines where those displaced workers have gone. Many may have been women who were part-time and are now sitting at home or working in the black economy—nobody benefits from that—or are unemployed so that the income into that household has diminished. Let us not kid ourselves: there is displacement. It is no good saying—we hear this argument all the time—“They’re coming in to do the jobs our people don’t want to do.” In my constituency, they are doing jobs that my people did a few years ago. I am not saying that everything should change—we cannot go back—but I want the Minister to understand that the people who have been displaced deeply resent what has happened to them.

[wickywackywoo]

I don't care if they are muslim or low skilled and the Polish did more fighting and dying against the Nazis than your family.

How could you possibly know that? We lost plenty of people in this country as well.

[dog]

£35 an hour? That equates to, what, 67K per annum? They haven't exactly driven you into the gutter, have they?

That aside, I take your point. I don't doubt that there has been an impact on some sectors. However the idea that factory workers were fired on mass and replaced by two pounds per hour immigrants is, I suspect, bunk.

£35 an hour is not the same as a £67K. Not by a long chalk.

[Yerman]

Most immigration is muslim, low skilled and based on family links so there are now lot of dependants who now have 'rights' to access the social pool of housing.

Hold on. I thought it was Polish? So 600,000 Polish, how many Muslims?

What makes me laugh is that you all come out with facts and statisitics that are just utter rubbish.

I'd like to add my facts to this. 60% of the people who post here are lazy scum as they obviously have too much free time during the working day. 30% work at night. 10% only post from home after work.

85% of the people on this site make up statistics, 15% can't work out percentages and so don't bother.

[wickywackywoo]

Hello D23,

If you mean Poles, I'd have to agree, officially.

But what about the unofficial ones?

(Still think your £50 is safe given recent events?

[wickywackywoo]

Hello D23,

If you mean Poles, I'd have to agree, officially.

But what about the unofficial ones?

(Still think your £50 is safe given recent events?

Hi bulltraderpt

I think you'd be surprised, the Eastern Europeans are just the most visible. From the figures I've seen for work permits just as many people have come from places like India and Pakistan.

[wickywackywoo]

£35 an hour is not the same as a £67K. Not by a long chalk.

If it's contract work then it probably equates to about £45k per year by the time you've taken off holidays, bank holidays, sickness, pension provision, training, accountants fees, etc.

[dog]

If it's contract work then it probably equates to about £45k per year by the time you've taken off holidays, bank holidays, sickness, pension provision, training, accountants fees, etc.

If.....if the contract lasts for 12 months.

[jimmyjazz]

650,000 hard working Poles have turned up and found work. Which begs the question as to what the 2.2 million on the Dole are doing and just why should we pay them...

A question a more vigorous Tory party should be and probably will be asking. A lot of the population already are...

If there is an HPC and a huge recession (both quite likely) many of the smug middle class and working class you talk of will be on the dole.

they will not be moaning about dole scroungers when they are looking to get their mortgage paid for them.

and all the poles will simply go back home.

Edited July 2, 2007 by jimmyjazz

[Guest d23]

If there is an HPC and a huge recession (both quite likely) many of the smug middle class and working class you talk of will be on the dole.

they will not be moaning about dole scroungers when they are looking to get their mortgage paid for them.

and all the poles will simply go back home.

there is a crucial difference between justifiably being on the dole and being a dole scrounger

in the huge recession you mention above I won't be moaning about dole scroungers but I am in the present climate

[dog]

If there is an HPC and a huge recession (both quite likely) many of the smug middle class and working class you talk of will be on the dole.

they will not be moaning about dole scroungers when they are looking to get their mortgage paid for them.

and all the poles will simply go back home.

On one hand this makes sense but on another, it doesn't. The Poles are young and a job in the UK is like a gap year job. They can do work on minimum wage, save up their money and put down a deposit on a house in Poland after a couple of years. A job on minimum wage is a different thing for a UK resident with a wife and two children.

[dog]

I agree with your sentiment, but do you have any facts or figures to examples to back that assumption up?

Only personal experience. Nearly all the Poles I have come across are under 25.

[Guest d23]

Perhaps some one could post the breakdown of these mythical dole scrougers by race colour or failing that religion.

Because from what I've read so far, they are the white poor indiginous populus of the UK.

Is this correct?

do you really think that people scrounging off the state is a myth?

I've don't know the religious / ethnic breakdown of those uneccasarily on benefits, but whatever race they are they need a kick in the ****.

[joey]

A vibrant workforce is a workforce that competes at all levels. Australia and New Zealand have a strict entry criteria letting in people who have work skills they are in short supply plus business owners witha certain amount of wealth. The UK is letting in people who compete with each other picking raspberries and strawberries. These people then get social housing whilst our future generation is straddled with debt. If this happened in Australia or New Zealand there would be uproar. We are slowly going back to the late 70s of "No Future".

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

We are slowly going back to the late 70s of "No Future".

1970s or 1870s

Edited July 2, 2007 by Cletus VanDamme

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

On one hand this makes sense but on another, it doesn't. The Poles are young and a job in the UK is like a gap year job. They can do work on minimum wage, save up their money and put down a deposit on a house in Poland after a couple of years. A job on minimum wage is a different thing for a UK resident with a wife and two children.

some anecdotal for you all.

we have a polish cleaner. I have been talking to her quite a bit & it transpired that she has a Masters Degree in Business. She used to be an assistant manager (or equivalent) in Poland, she got paid 100 euros per month (2005). She had to live with family as she could not afford to even rent a place.

She works as a cleaner part time for us, & has another 2 part time jobs, cleaning & sandwich shop iirc & she earns enough money to rent a flat in York, & have 2 holidays home to Poland this year. She can buy her own clothes & food etc & live comfortably. her Polish friends think that she is rich (her exact words).

puts everything into perspective for me.

I think there are 2 sides to this immigration coin & it depends on what type of English person & what type of Non-English of person you are comparing imo. There are chavs on both sides & there are genuine hard working people on both sides, be careful when drawing your conclusions.

Edited July 2, 2007 by grumpy-old-man