Will London Be Such A Desirable Place To Live

[precipice]

Since I was replying to someone who commented on the cost of public transport IN London, I don't know what the hell you're on about!

It's a thread. On a forum. A thread where people are ranting about the private car being completely unnecessary, because they live somewhere with usable public transport. You joined in. I joined in. That's more or less how these things work, isn't it?

P.

[uncle_monty]

How can an easyjet flight to Malaga cost half that?

London, a great place for the young, living in London late 70's 80's & early 90's, wouldn't have wanted to live anywhere else.

Not so sure now, could it be age catching up with me?

Because its not appropriately taxed to reflect its environmental cost. It will be before our generation is in the grave.

[RichM]

This road charging thing is clearly only a tax raising exercise. We all already pay shed loads of road tax. If they're serious about reducing carbon emissions, build nulcear power stations and only allow new cars to do 150+mpg.

[uncle_monty]

It's a thread. On a forum. A thread where people are ranting about the private car being completely unnecessary, because they live somewhere with usable public transport. You joined in. I joined in. That's more or less how these things work, isn't it?

P.

Nobody has a right to a car. Each of us may buy one if we can afford it. No point whining now that this true cost is proposed to be applied. Public transport will have to improve and lives will have to change.

[Pluto]

This road charging thing is clearly only a tax raising exercise. We all already pay shed loads of road tax. If they're serious about reducing carbon emissions, build nulcear power stations and only allow new cars to do 150+mpg.

Yes, you're right. Think about the congestion charge and who it really effects? The poor are the ones who suffer.

If Loopy Ken was really serious he would ban driving in London unless you had a permit. Permits could be issued based on need to have a car.

London's rich must love the congestion charge. For a small fee, to them, they can drive around without all the riff raff.

Another reason to scarper from London. Playground for the rich and Loopy Ken is their caretaker.

[winkie]

Because its not appropriately taxed to reflect its environmental cost. It will be before our generation is in the grave.

Soon any type of transport will be so expensive, should we not look to try to earn a living working from home?

[Pluto]

Nobody has a right to a car. Each of us may buy one if we can afford it. No point whining now that this true cost is proposed to be applied. Public transport will have to improve and lives will have to change.

Rubbish, then noboby has a right to get on plane and sun themselves for a week and come back again. I could argue that all plane travel for vacationing should be outlawed.

I could further argue that water should be limited to 10L a day per household, as noboby has a right to unlimited water. The same with Gas and Electricity.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Pluto

[precipice]

Nobody has a right to a car. Each of us may buy one if we can afford it. No point whining now that this true cost is proposed to be applied. Public transport will have to improve and lives will have to change.

Charging by the mile, as proposed, isn't related to the true cost, though. I might as well run a gargantuan barge with a rancid V8 Diesel as something more economical. Charge me lots for fuel, and I'll choose transport that doesn't use much of the stuff. Charge airlines the same for fuel, and they'll change their ways too. Taxing something loosely connected to the problem is no way to solve that problem, it's a way to raise taxes and employ lawyers and enforcers. The control-freakery of knowing where every (legally registered) car and every (law-abiding) person is is just a happy side effect, as is the monumental IT fsck-up in the making.

Of course public transport should improve. Of course habits should change for the better. But this is a stupid plan, in many ways, and I don't like it.

(For what it's worth, I cycle most places, since, even in moderately well served Cambridge, public transport is unusable if I need to get somewhere at some time, and back.)

P.

(De-typoed)

Edited February 15, 2007 by precipice

[Als]

Nobody has a right to a car. Each of us may buy one if we can afford it. No point whining now that this true cost is proposed to be applied. Public transport will have to improve and lives will have to change.

The British governments environmental policy is full of contradictions. They welcome airport expansion to encourage economic growth. They also encourage immigration on a scale never before seen and over the coming decades will have to meet the consequent resource requirements. This government are bad news. You should vote against them next time. Because if they aren't voted out they are sure to be removed by force. I'll put money on it.

[Pluto]

Charging by the mile, as proposed, isn't related to the true cost, though. I might as well run a gargantuan barge with a rancid V8 Diesel as something more economical. Charge me lots for fuel, and I'll choose transport that doesn't use much of the stuff. Charge airlines the same for fuel, and they'll change their ways too. Taxing something loosely connected to the problem is no way to solve that problem, it's a way to raise taxes and employ lawyers and enforcers. The control-freakery of knowing where every (legally registered) car and every (law-abiding) person is is just a happy side effect, as is the monumental IT fsck-up in the making.

Of course public transport should improve. Of course habits should change for the better. But this is a stupid plan, in many ways, and I don't like it.

(For what it's worth, I cycle most places, since, even in moderately well served Cabridge, public transport is unusable if I need to get somewhere at some time, and back.)

P.

All these plans are ways to tax the residents. The same as speeding cameras.

[Pluto]

The British governments environmental policy is full of contradictions. They welcome airport expansion to encourage economic growth. They also encourage immigration on a scale never before seen and over the coming decades will have to meet the consequent resource requirements. This government are bad news. You should vote against them next time. Because if they aren't voted out they are sure to be removed by force. I'll put money on it.

The standard of living for British residents is dropping faster than anywhere else in the western world. While the government has us bamboolzed regarding golbal warming, bird flu, and peek oil, they are filling our streets with immigrant labour and taxing everything they possibly can.

T

[uncle_monty]

Rubbish, then noboby has a right to get on plane and sun themselves for a week and come back again. I could argue that all plane travel for vacationing should be outlawed.

I could further argue that water should be limited to 10L a day per household, as noboby has a right to unlimited water.

I'm not arguing for the outlawing of said activities. You just have to pay the Prevailing Market Rate, which equals physical cost + environmental cost. Vry simple.

PS If (or should I say when) water is metered, water consumption will regulate itself.

I'm afraid we all will have to move with the times. I know its not what anyone wants to hear, but the selfish, hedonistic party is coming to an end.

[uncle_monty]

Charging by the mile, as proposed, isn't related to the true cost, though. I might as well run a gargantuan barge with a rancid V8 Diesel as something more economical. Charge me lots for fuel, and I'll choose transport that doesn't use much of the stuff. Charge airlines the same for fuel, and they'll change their ways too. Taxing something loosely connected to the problem is no way to solve that problem, it's a way to raise taxes and employ lawyers and enforcers. The control-freakery of knowing where every (legally registered) car and every (law-abiding) person is is just a happy side effect, as is the monumental IT fsck-up in the making.

Of course public transport should improve. Of course habits should change for the better. But this is a stupid plan, in many ways, and I don't like it.

(For what it's worth, I cycle most places, since, even in moderately well served Cambridge, public transport is unusable if I need to get somewhere at some time, and back.)

P.

(De-typoed)

Perhaps the specifics of this proposal need ironing out, so I'm sure you make good points. However, the general thrust is that car, air water consumption is going to have to cost a lot, lot more than it does at present. Bitter pill for us all.

I also cycle and take the odd train/tube. Always aspired to have a sports car as a boy, now that I can afford one, I can not in all good conscience buy one.

[uncle_monty]

The British governments environmental policy is full of contradictions. They welcome airport expansion to encourage economic growth. They also encourage immigration on a scale never before seen and over the coming decades will have to meet the consequent resource requirements. This government are bad news. You should vote against them next time. Because if they aren't voted out they are sure to be removed by force. I'll put money on it.

Basic supply and demand. Same resources in the world + increasing population = higher prices for resources. Why is any one surprised?

[winkie]

The standard of living for British residents is dropping faster than anywhere else in the western world.

Our quality of life may be declining, even though we have more material nic nacs.

Who stole our peace of mind?

[precipice]

Always aspired to have a sports car as a boy, now that I can afford one, I can not in all good conscience buy one.

Ah, I have the perfect solution for you. Buy a classic Lotus. Dead cheap on Ebay, you can gently fiddle with it, cherish it, and, with 30-year-old Lotus reliability, you'll not be troubling the roads very often. Works for me, anyway.

P.

(HPC-related question. Last time house prices collapsed, a lot of money went into classic cars, and their prices became stupid. There are some signs at auction of this process starting again. Anyone else?)

[uncle_monty]

Ah, I have the perfect solution for you. Buy a classic Lotus. Dead cheap on Ebay, you can gently fiddle with it, cherish it, and, with 30-year-old Lotus reliability, you'll not be troubling the roads very often. Works for me, anyway.

P.

(HPC-related question. Last time house prices collapsed, a lot of money went into classic cars, and their prices became stupid. There are some signs at auction of this process starting again. Anyone else?)

[cells]

I've got an Oyster card. Travel is really cheap.

most families have a car and use it almost everyday.

have you tried to do food shopping with public transport?

have you tried to use public transport when it is raining? or very cold? with kids?

have you never seen asbos on public transport harassing commuters?

have you tried the tube at peak times?

a 7 day travel card for London zones 1-4 costs £33.2

Average family of 4 = £132.8

not a perfect comparison but in that case, a car is much cheaper and more convenient.

Public transport needs to be both cheaper and better quality.

[Kuma]

Slightly off topic but isnt that the Gower Street entrance to UCL?

[jonewer]

Also, this crap of not needing a car is naive. The cost of public transport in London already is ridiculous, or are suggesting that all Londoners are going to walk everywhere?

Have you considered the length of time it takes to get from A to B? With continuous gridlock from 7 till 7? Often its quicker to walk. During morning rush-hour I would regularly out-pace buses.

[jonewer]

Who stole our peace of mind?

Someone stole a piece of my mind the other deeee kkslupoi idsnd klllurkullilikkkkkkkikki pagatu!

[winkie]

Someone stole a piece of my mind the other deeee kkslupoi idsnd klllurkullilikkkkkkkikki pagatu!

How unfortunate.

But yes, I am quite willing to use public transport, but will stick with the car, until the comfort factor and cost comes down.

If there was a benefit to using public transport, I would use it. At the moment it is more hassle, more expensive and uncomfortable.

Anyway I quite enjoy the enviroment and freedom of the car, good radio and sounds and time to think.

[Pluto]

most families have a car and use it almost everyday.

have you tried to do food shopping with public transport?

have you tried to use public transport when it is raining? or very cold? with kids?

have you never seen asbos on public transport harassing commuters?

have you tried the tube at peak times?

a 7 day travel card for London zones 1-4 costs £33.2

Average family of 4 = £132.8

not a perfect comparison but in that case, a car is much cheaper and more convenient.

Public transport needs to be both cheaper and better quality.

Exactly, these pied a terre fools are not thinking long term or what happens to the disabled and injured. We cannot walk everywhere and carry on a normal life. Those living in London and think this way have never had to pick up kids from school and drop them off at scouts or after school activities. Oh, I forget, the UK parent doesn't do any of that any more. We just let our kids fend for themselves, that is why we're bottom of league for child poverty in the western world.

[tother]

strange - not one suggestion about hydrogen power? There seems to be quite a number of posters regard themselves as green but I would have thought those would be the people with otehr ideas than the government policy of 'cant do it, we'll make yo upay'

I dont pretend to know much about this technology but there have been several reports about the improvements. Ok, it would cost to get the infrastructure up & running (replacing conventional garages etc) but we are thinking long term arent we?

You dont have to financially penalise everyone....not if alternatives can be provided. Give me a choice & i know what i would do!

Oh & the first thing I would do is enfore MP's to complete a target of say 50% of meetings via online confrencing. Set an example if you want people to follow.

the old saying of 'do as I say, not as I do' springs to mind.

'wanders off shaking head'

[Grime- skint wouldbe ftb]

No, it is actually quite common. South America is riddled with these 3 ring circus cities. London will be much worst due to the debt the middle ring have been accumulating over the last 10 or so years.

dunno what you mean by "will be", you've described the london of today