Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 6 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: Fitting them to the new generation of smart meters should be a no brainer. It’s not a good idea. If the lifespan of the cell exceeds 15-20 years (which it should), it will need to be removed from the comms hub when it comes time to replace it. Also, EM shielding. better to roll them out independently. don’t get me wrong, we should be supporting greater battery roll out, just not hardware coupled with smart meters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: Dynamic pricing will change that, smoothing out demand and thereby reducing both the amount of electric infrastrure required and wasted renewable power. So cheaper electricity. No it won't, unless you make it really expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 44 minutes ago, fellow said: No it won't, unless you make it really expensive. People didn’t use economy 7/11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sackboii Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chunketh said: It’s not a good idea. If the lifespan of the cell exceeds 15-20 years (which it should), it will need to be removed from the comms hub when it comes time to replace it. Also, EM shielding I don't think anyone is suggesting that any batteries would be included in the same box/footprint of a smart meter.. 🙂 Edit: Or vice versa Edited April 18 by Sackboii Edit.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Sackboii said: I don't think anyone is suggesting that any batteries would be included in the same box/footprint of a smart meter.. 🙂 Edit: Or vice versa If you look at the quote I was replying to, that’s exactly what was suggested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 4 hours ago, TenYearToGetMyMoneyBack said: Predictions like that, and the plummeting value of EVs, actually put people like myself off buying something today. I'm still waiting to be shown a retailer who will fit me a domestic battery for £482, which is the current price according to his article. He keeps doing this, trying to give the impression that it is all so affordable, when it isn't. The price is ten times that. I'm willing to be shown I'm wrong. It's not something I've taken much interest in, so if anyone can show us a supplier who would do it for that price, now is your chance to show me. Also, 5kWh isn't much. It would flatten the curve on a day-long timescale, but it isn't enough to get us through the winter Dunkelflaute. Average electric consumption is about 8kWh per day per home currently, but that is only because most of us use gas for heating, hot water and cooking. Our cars run off fossil fuel. When we are doing all that by electricity, average consumption will be double or triple. Edited April 18 by kzb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 2 hours ago, fellow said: No it won't, unless you make it really expensive. For generations we've been used to be able to switch something on at the time which is most convenient to us. But in this new "improved" world, when we get home from work in the late afternoon/early evening, with kids to cook for and all the rest, we have to nervously monitor the electric price every 30 minutes. Sorry kids no tea yet because the electric price is still too expensive. Yet people on here seem to think this dystopian vision is actually something to look forward to. Amusingly, the "boomers", who will be in retirement by the time this comes around, will be able to do stuff around midday when it is cheap. So these enthusiasts can watch the boomers laughing at them struggling, I'm sure they'll love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sackboii Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 58 minutes ago, Chunketh said: If you look at the quote I was replying to, that’s exactly what was suggested I didn't infer that from that post, and I don't think that was implied, but fair do's, I guess it's open to interpretation. 😏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 minute ago, Sackboii said: I didn't infer that from that post, and I don't think that was implied, but fair do's, I guess it's open to interpretation. 😏 To / in...yeah guess so. I'd be keeping the CH well away from a big bank of batteries either way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 46 minutes ago, kzb said: For generations we've been used to be able to switch something on at the time which is most convenient to us. But in this new "improved" world, when we get home from work in the late afternoon/early evening, with kids to cook for and all the rest, we have to nervously monitor the electric price every 30 minutes. Sorry kids no tea yet because the electric price is still too expensive. Yet people on here seem to think this dystopian vision is actually something to look forward to. Amusingly, the "boomers", who will be in retirement by the time this comes around, will be able to do stuff around midday when it is cheap. So these enthusiasts can watch the boomers laughing at them struggling, I'm sure they'll love that. Oh no...CHANGE!!!! We no longer want to build and maintain vast quantities of coal/gas fired power stations just to meet peak demand! Whatever will the VIs do! You do know that not all tariffs are the same? Right? For those that want MHHS (those with a battery) going on agile is a no brainer. For those without...not so much! Enthusiastic folk go into this eyes open, they accept that they get cheaper power off peak because they get hosed on peak. They understand that flattening the curve is a highly desirable goal, because it means less overall infrastructure is required which makes it cheaper for everyone. I would have thought you would be all over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, Chunketh said: People didn’t use economy 7/11? Economy 7 was just a heat storage device. What's that got to do with surge pricing unless we all have battery storage to draw energy off peak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, kzb said: For generations we've been used to be able to switch something on at the time which is most convenient to us. But in this new "improved" world, when we get home from work in the late afternoon/early evening, with kids to cook for and all the rest, we have to nervously monitor the electric price every 30 minutes. Sorry kids no tea yet because the electric price is still too expensive. Yet people on here seem to think this dystopian vision is actually something to look forward to. Amusingly, the "boomers", who will be in retirement by the time this comes around, will be able to do stuff around midday when it is cheap. So these enthusiasts can watch the boomers laughing at them struggling, I'm sure they'll love that. Exactly this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Who has a smart meter?.......nobody has been to read the meter since before COVID!....more job losses, more AI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sackboii Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 28 minutes ago, fellow said: Economy 7 was just a heat storage device. What's that got to do with surge pricing unless we all have battery storage to draw energy off peak? Economy 7 was a system, part of which were heat storage devices (thermal bricks sat inside wall-mounted 'heaters'). The other parts were a special meter which switched on a contactor and fed power to the heating elements within the wall-mounted heaters, whilst also closing those heaters' warm-air exit vents during the 7-hour period at night (typically 23:00-06:00, although this did vary a bit over time). During this period, if the core temperature as measured by an internal thermostat was below a setpoint, the heating elements would be switched on to heat up the core within the thermal bricks. Outside these hours, the wall-mounted heaters warm-air exit vents were then opened if the room temperature of that heater was below where the local room/heater thermostat was set. So the system was self-regulating for the most part. Only heating up the thermal bricks at night and only if they were already cool enough, and only releasing heat during the day and only if the room was cool enough. As such heating systems fell out of favour/popularity, the supply tariffs associated with them were dropped/changed/renamed, but the 'Economy 7' name still persists. A bit like 'Hoover' for vacuum cleaner, or 'Biro' for a ball-point pen. Wouldn't surprise me if there is still a tariff out there called Economy 7 though.. Edited April 18 by Sackboii clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 22 minutes ago, fellow said: Economy 7 was just a heat storage device. What's that got to do with surge pricing unless we all have battery storage to draw energy off peak? Economy 7 or 11 was/is a tariff. Cheaper electricity off peak. Heat storage devices were used to capitalise off this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 8 minutes ago, Sackboii said: Wouldn't surprise me if there is still a tariff out there called Economy 7 though.. I was on E11 up to Late 2018, the flat I was in had a massive immersion heater tank with a serious amount of insulation. It worked like a charm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Just now, Chunketh said: Economy 7 or 11 was/is a tariff. Cheaper electricity off peak. Heat storage devices were used to capitalise off this. And now explain how you would make use of cheaper off peak electricity if you are not at home or asleep during off peak times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Just now, fellow said: And now explain how you would make use of cheaper off peak electricity if you are not at home or asleep during off peak times? the heat storage devices that you already eluded to! EV charging Intelligent Washing machines/dishwashers/slow cookers Its quite a big list really. You could even use one of these with a dumb device. They cost about a fiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Chunketh said: the heat storage devices that you already eluded to! EV charging Intelligent Washing machines/dishwashers/slow cookers Its quite a big list really. You could even use one of these with a dumb device. They cost about a fiver. It's a good point about smart devices. I reckon one day the National Grid will be given access to certain high usage web connected devices such as kettles, washing machines etc and be able to block usage at emergency peak times so eventually we may not even get a choice. Edited April 18 by fellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewy Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 48 minutes ago, fellow said: It's a good point about smart devices. I reckon one day the National Grid will be given access to certain high usage web connected devices such as kettles, washing machines etc and be able to block usage at emergency peak times so eventually we may not even get a choice. That won't happen. Too much effort for just a few hundred Watts. They're more likely to cap train acceleration rates or something like that as part of an incentivised contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, Chunketh said: Oh no...CHANGE!!!! We no longer want to build and maintain vast quantities of coal/gas fired power stations just to meet peak demand! Whatever will the VIs do! You do know that not all tariffs are the same? Right? For those that want MHHS (those with a battery) going on agile is a no brainer. For those without...not so much! Enthusiastic folk go into this eyes open, they accept that they get cheaper power off peak because they get hosed on peak. They understand that flattening the curve is a highly desirable goal, because it means less overall infrastructure is required which makes it cheaper for everyone. I would have thought you would be all over that. I think you are missing the point. In the future we won't choose to have a dynamic tariff, it will be effectively compulsory. That is what this thread is about. So basically, we can look forward to power being outrageously expensive when we need it, and perhaps cheap when we don't. This isn't the cornucopia of excess power, almost too cheap to meter, that we were promised. They are going backwards on their promises very early in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Stewy said: That won't happen. Too much effort for just a few hundred Watts. They're more likely to cap train acceleration rates or something like that as part of an incentivised contract. The classic problem is everyone brewing up at half time during the cup final. So even though one kettle isn't much, they add up to a lot when everyone does it at the same time. The sum will be a lot more than a few trains accelerating. They've already got the legislation in place to knock off appliances when necessary. When you think how behind the times they are with legislating most other things, it is very impressive how they have passed this law in such good time. It shows what their priorities actually are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, fellow said: It's a good point about smart devices. I reckon one day the National Grid will be given access to certain high usage web connected devices such as kettles, washing machines etc and be able to block usage at emergency peak times so eventually we may not even get a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 52 minutes ago, kzb said: I think you are missing the point. In the future we won't choose to have a dynamic tariff, it will be effectively compulsory. That is what this thread is about. So basically, we can look forward to power being outrageously expensive when we need it, and perhaps cheap when we don't. This isn't the cornucopia of excess power, almost too cheap to meter, that we were promised. They are going backwards on their promises very early in the game. I don't see where that is being proposed or when everyone will be forced onto a tariff specifically designed for those with storage. It wont happen. Will there be cheaper rates available off peak...of course there will, just as there has been since 1978 when Economy 7 was first introduced. I suppose that was a bad move as well? The alternative is that we have excess capacity available at all times. Who is going to pay for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewy Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 18 minutes ago, Chunketh said: The alternative is that we have excess capacity available at all times. Who is going to pay for that? Having spare capacity is always a good idea for a National Grid... ✓ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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