Maghull Mike Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 https://nitter.net/shashj/status/1720721163515564101#m Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet Guy Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 It's probably a bit premature to call the outcome but it doens't look good for Ukraine now. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/03/world/ukraine-president-warns-long-attritional-war/index.html A lot will depend upon what happens in the Middle East and the American Presidential election, both of which look uncertain IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Ukraine was always doomed if it tried to fight Russia. As I said long ago, Russia would win unless they gave up. By far the best solution would have been to be serious about peace with Russia before February 2022. The second-best solution would have been the peace treaty they were negotiating with Russia a few weeks later, until Boris convinced Zelensky that he should fight. Now hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are dead, millions have fled the country and Ukraine will soon not exist Zelensky will be lucky if he doesn't end up hoisted on a lamp-post by irate conscripts in Kiev. But don't tell anyone in the other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drat Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 12 hours ago, MarkG said: Ukraine was always doomed if it tried to fight Russia. As I said long ago, Russia would win unless they gave up. By far the best solution would have been to be serious about peace with Russia before February 2022. The second-best solution would have been the peace treaty they were negotiating with Russia a few weeks later, until Boris convinced Zelensky that he should fight. Now hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are dead, millions have fled the country and Ukraine will soon not exist Zelensky will be lucky if he doesn't end up hoisted on a lamp-post by irate conscripts in Kiev. But don't tell anyone in the other thread. If Ukraine hadn't fought back when Russia invaded it, Ukraine would no longer exist, it would just be part of Russia. I know that would suit your objectives of an ever increasing Russian empire spreading autocracy around the world but I guess the Ukrainians think differently to you. Just think, if Russia had never invaded Ukraine, many hundreds of thousands or Ukrainians and Russians would still be alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70PC Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Drat said: If Ukraine hadn't fought back when Russia invaded it, Ukraine would no longer exist, it would just be part of Russia. I know that would suit your objectives of an ever increasing Russian empire spreading autocracy around the world but I guess the Ukrainians think differently to you. Just think, if Russia had never invaded Ukraine, many hundreds of thousands or Ukrainians and Russians would still be alive. Absolutely right. Some are jumping to conclusions. We need to wait. Ukraine is still fighting hard and making ground albeit at a slow rate. Peace deals signed without the support of the population don't work. Ukraine certainly has major problems but things don't look good for Russia now for multiple reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Drat said: If Ukraine hadn't fought back when Russia invaded it, Ukraine would no longer exist, it would just be part of Russia. Complete nonsense. Russia offered Ukraine the opportunity to continue to exist both before and after the invasion. Even after the invasion, the peace agreement they were working on would have left the Donbass as part of Ukraine, not part of Russia. Now it will be part of Russia and Ukraine will not exist... except perhaps as another welfare case hanging off the carcass of the EU. 37 minutes ago, 70PC said: Ukraine is still fighting hard and making ground albeit at a slow rate. Even the Western media has admitted that Russia has taken more ground during the "Ukrainian counteroffensive" than Ukraine did. This is the kind of lunacy which guarantees Ukraine will be destroyed. 37 minutes ago, 70PC said: Peace deals signed without the support of the population don't work. Zelensky was elected by the population because he promised peace under the Minsk agreements. Instead he brought them war. Edited November 7, 2023 by MarkG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70PC Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, MarkG said: Complete nonsense. Russia offered Ukraine the opportunity to continue to exist both before and after the invasion. Even after the invasion, the peace agreement they were working on would have left the Donbass as part of Ukraine, not part of Russia. Now it will be part of Russia and Ukraine will not exist... except perhaps as another welfare case hanging off the carcass of the EU. Even the Western media has admitted that Russia has taken more ground during the "Ukrainian counteroffensive" than Ukraine did. This is the kind of lunacy which guarantees Ukraine will be destroyed. Zelensky was elected by the population because he promised peace under the Minsk agreements. Instead he brought them war. "Complete nonsense. Russia offered Ukraine the opportunity to continue to exist both before and after the invasion." If they are run as a vassel state under Russian control they cease to exist in the most important context. "Even after the invasion, the peace agreement they were working on would have left the Donbass as part of Ukraine, not part of Russia. Now it will be part of Russia and Ukraine will not exist... except perhaps as another welfare case hanging off the carcass of the EU." Be serious. Putin tried a full scale invasion at the outset to install his own puppet leader. "Even the Western media has admitted that Russia has taken more ground during the "Ukrainian counteroffensive" than Ukraine did. This is the kind of lunacy which guarantees Ukraine will be destroyed." Is this a wild assertion or do you have something to back this up? It does not tally with Reuters, FT and other publications. "Zelensky was elected by the population because he promised peace under the Minsk agreements. Instead he brought them war." Russia brought them war. Russia is in a difficult position now. They have sanctions, internal unrest, resive neighbours, Nato on their border, economic problems, and the prospect of decades of conflict in the stolen land, peace deal or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHorseWaits-NoMore Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, 70PC said: "Complete nonsense. Russia offered Ukraine the opportunity to continue to exist both before and after the invasion." If they are run as a vassel state under Russian control they cease to exist in the most important context. "Even after the invasion, the peace agreement they were working on would have left the Donbass as part of Ukraine, not part of Russia. Now it will be part of Russia and Ukraine will not exist... except perhaps as another welfare case hanging off the carcass of the EU." Be serious. Putin tried a full scale invasion at the outset to install his own puppet leader. "Even the Western media has admitted that Russia has taken more ground during the "Ukrainian counteroffensive" than Ukraine did. This is the kind of lunacy which guarantees Ukraine will be destroyed." Is this a wild assertion or do you have something to back this up? It does not tally with Reuters, FT and other publications. "Zelensky was elected by the population because he promised peace under the Minsk agreements. Instead he brought them war." Russia brought them war. Russia is in a difficult position now. They have sanctions, internal unrest, resive neighbours, Nato on their border, economic problems, and the prospect of decades of conflict in the stolen land, peace deal or not. I largely disagree with those observations/opinions (in bold). It's like we are living in different realities or perspectives, somewhat similar to a Rimmer Experience. Edited November 8, 2023 by DarkHorseWaits-NoMore clarify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 On 07/11/2023 at 18:16, MarkG said: Complete nonsense. Russia offered Ukraine the opportunity to continue to exist both before and after the invasion. Even after the invasion, the peace agreement they were working on would have left the Donbass as part of Ukraine, not part of Russia. Now it will be part of Russia and Ukraine will not exist... except perhaps as another welfare case hanging off the carcass of the EU. Even the Western media has admitted that Russia has taken more ground during the "Ukrainian counteroffensive" than Ukraine did. This is the kind of lunacy which guarantees Ukraine will be destroyed. Zelensky was elected by the population because he promised peace under the Minsk agreements. Instead he brought them war. I suggest you get off the alt-right Nazi forums and learn the truth. You need a debrief. Here it is: Exclusive: As war began, Putin rejected a Ukraine peace deal recommended by aide | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/ Ukraine: A Real Peace Will Require Change from Russia | United States Institute of Peace https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/01/ukraine-real-peace-will-require-change-russia Fallacy 2: ‘Ukraine should concede territory in exchange for peace’ | Chatham House – International Affairs Think Tank https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/06/how-end-russias-war-ukraine/fallacy-2-ukraine-should-concede-territory-exchange-peace To achieve peace, both Ukraine and Russia must feel secure | Russia-Ukraine war | Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/5/10/to-achieve-peace-both-ukraine-and-russia-must-feel-secure Peace Talks Between Russia and Ukraine: Mission Impossible - Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2022C65/ Ukraine and Russia explore neutrality plan in peace talks https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1 Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine Why a Peace Deal Between Russia and Ukraine Is Unlikely https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/why-a-peace-deal-between-russia-and-ukraine-is-unlikely.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.