Tesla...............the Betamax of future cars?

[Jean-Luc]

1 minute ago, NorthamptonBear said:

For those considering doing salary sacrifice to get a company Tesla:

Salary sacrifice reduces your & your employer's tax bills, might get you under tax and child benefit threshold (especially in combination with additional pension contributions - useful when tax bands aren't changing, bring more & more people into higher-rate).

BIK rates have been announced until 2028. They could change, I guess - BTW BIK ratees . https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the-current-bik-bands-/3/

Business leases for Model 3 & BMW are similar. BIK isn't. How do you get a cost of £1200? The ones I've looked at are around £650 for M3Performance, less for Long Range or Standard. I posted examples yesterday. What is your lease provider charging for cheapest and most expensive BMW3? Unless you work for a bank, employer should be able to reclaim VAT.

 

Some more

Those examples are not SS cars but leases. A SS car from our provider for a MYP over 48 months 10,000 miles is £1200 per months before tax savings. That cost includes all maintenence and insurance and there is no initial rental. You pay nothing up front.

[NorthamptonBear]

10 minutes ago, daveyj said:

And yet I had mine for 3 years and averaged 356 Wh/mi over 34,000 miles. 2019 M3P.

18 inch aero wheels for the win. I've just looked through reddit, teslafi & a few other places & your numbers seem ridiculous.

Possibilities:-

Speeding

Lots of start/stop with pre-heating/cabin cool-down at stops

Adverse weather - cold rain can be bad, more air resistance. 

Brake slightly stuck on

Wrong regen settings

Harsh braking at last minute

 

 

[Jean-Luc]

4 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

18 inch aero wheels for the win. I've just looked through reddit, teslafi & a few other places & your numbers seem ridiculous.

Possibilities:-

Speeding

Lots of start/stop with pre-heating/cabin cool-down at stops

Adverse weather - cold rain can be bad, more air resistance. 

Brake slightly stuck on

Wrong regen settings

Harsh braking at last minute

 

 

Believe it or not I don't care. I agree tho it is ridiculous how bad the car was compared to how it was advertised.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by daveyj

[Gurgle]

7 minutes ago, daveyj said:

Believe it or not I don't care. I agree tho it is ridiculous how bad the car was compared to how it was advertised.

 

You don’t care because you shouldn’t have to.  No one wants to fret about stupid stuff like this

[Jean-Luc]

Just now, Gurgle said:

You don’t care because you shouldn’t have to.  No one wants to fret about stupid stuff like this

Yup.

I want to get in my car and go without giving a second thought to how high my climate control is or whether im stopping/starting too often ffs the car was sh*t.

[NorthamptonBear]

4 minutes ago, daveyj said:

Those examples are not SS cars but leases. A SS car from our provider for a MYP over 48 months 10,000 miles is £1200 per months before tax savings. That cost includes all maintenence and insurance and there is no initial rental. You pay nothing up front.

True that it doesn't include minor costs, the Express says:- "The lease of a £51,000 Tesla Model 3, for example, would cost an employee about £390 per month net with no deposit via a salary sacrifice car scheme." https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1657556/car-tax-changes-updates-electric-car-benefit-in-kind-tesla-exclusive (chosen for comedy value of Express saying something nice about electric cars)

The finance is similar, insurance can't be much more per month than BMW 3 unless reasons...

Maintenance is tyres (more if speedy, less if using regen - no gear changes - gearbox/road mismatches & better traction control when accelerating).

Just do a google search, plenty of answers coming in at £360 net for a Long Range, 

So what is cheapest & most expensive BMW 3 for your salary sacrifice? That's the comparison. Plus better lease companies of course.

[NorthamptonBear]

7 minutes ago, daveyj said:

Yup.

I want to get in my car and go without giving a second thought to how high my climate control is or whether im stopping/starting too often ffs the car was sh*t.

Climate control isn't important especially with newer heat pumps, driving at 90 mph is. Stop/start can cool battery. Similar to ICE needing to heat up again after a long stop. Having a defrosted windscreen before getting into the car is a nice feature, can get away from train station car parks before others, save scraping outside while pumping diesel fumes at your own house waking family & neighbours.

So what's the cost of salary sacrifice for BMW3?

Why the vitriol? Fantastic car. You're one of the few people who claim to have gone back to ICE. I've never seen a real switch confirmed. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by NorthamptonBear
minor edit

[Jean-Luc]

1 minute ago, NorthamptonBear said:

True that it doesn't include minor costs, the Express says:- "The lease of a £51,000 Tesla Model 3, for example, would cost an employee about £390 per month net with no deposit via a salary sacrifice car scheme." https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1657556/car-tax-changes-updates-electric-car-benefit-in-kind-tesla-exclusive (chosen for comedy value of Express saying something nice about electric cars)

The finance is similar, insurance can't be much more per month than BMW 3 unless reasons...

Maintenance is tyres (more if speedy, less if using regen - no gear changes - gearbox/road mismatches & better traction control when accelerating).

Just do a google search, plenty of answers coming in at £360 net for a Long Range, 

So what is cheapest & most expensive BMW 3 for your salary sacrifice? That's the comparison. Plus better lease companies of course.

Why do I give a f*ck to do a google search? Our provider is the one I would need to use so their prices are all that matter to me. I couldn't give a monkeys toss if other people can get better deals. Good for them. Even if i could get it for £360 net I wouldn't. The last one I had was sh*t and they are ugly as sin. I grew to very much dislike the look of my Tesla and hated being in it.

Also I couldn't give a monkeys toss about a comparison between the tesla and the BMW ive had both and both were equally sh*t cars for different reasons.

[Jean-Luc]

Just now, NorthamptonBear said:

Climate control isn't important especially with newer heat pumps, driving at 90 mph is. Having a defrosted windscreen before getting into the car is a nice feature, can get away from train station car parks before others, save scraping outside while pumping diesel fumes at your own house waking family & neighbours.

So what's the cost of salary sacrifice for BMW3?

Why the vitriol? Fantastic car. You're one of the few people who claim to have gone back to ICE. I've never seen a real switch confirmed. 

I never moved away from ICE. The tesla was a second car.

[NorthamptonBear]

1 minute ago, daveyj said:

Why do I give a f*ck to do a google search? Our provider is the one I would need to use so their prices are all that matter to me. I couldn't give a monkeys toss if other people can get better deals. Good for them. Even if i could get it for £360 net I wouldn't. The last one I had was sh*t and they are ugly as sin. I grew to very much dislike the look of my Tesla and hated being in it.

Also I couldn't give a monkeys toss about a comparison between the tesla and the BMW ive had both and both were equally sh*t cars for different reasons.

So are their BMW 3 series costs comparable?

[NorthamptonBear]

Just now, daveyj said:

I never moved away from ICE. The tesla was a second car.

Funny, I spoke with a friend recently - once they had an EV, all their other cars were left unused. Common - people get an EV/Tesla as a second car & end up getting rid of others, getting another EV.

[Jean-Luc]

1 minute ago, NorthamptonBear said:

So are their BMW 3 series costs comparable?

£920 per month for the BMW 3 series saloon vs £1226 per month for Tesla M3P. Bottom line costs are similar due to BIK savings on the tesla.

[Jean-Luc]

2 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Funny, I spoke with a friend recently - once they had an EV, all their other cars were left unused. Common - people get an EV/Tesla as a second car & end up getting rid of others, getting another EV.

There is no EV that would be suitable for what I use my diesel for.

[mynamehere]

2 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Funny, I spoke with a friend recently - once they had an EV, all their other cars were left unused. Common - people get an EV/Tesla as a second car & end up getting rid of others, getting another EV.

We literally sold our ICE yesterday. Was suprised at the price we got, much higher than expected. 

There is still demand for the old dino burners yet

[NorthamptonBear]

3 minutes ago, daveyj said:

£920 per month for the BMW 3 series saloon vs £1226 per month for Tesla M3P. Bottom line costs are similar due to BIK savings on the tesla.

Which Model BMW? For lease, basic (no options whatsoever, rarely chosen) BMW 3 are slightly cheaper than Model 3 Standard but end up way higher than Model 3 Performance. Even the most basic BMW 3 with any option would likely start out higher. I would expect a top spec BMW 3 to be much higher.

So need to compare cheapest Model 3 with cheapest BMW3 & most expensive as well. The Performance has supercar acceleration after all.

Edited April 26, 2023 by NorthamptonBear

[Jean-Luc]

Just now, NorthamptonBear said:

Which Model BMW? For lease, basic (no options whatsoever, rarely chosen) BMW 3 are slightly cheaper than Model 3 Standard but end up way higher than Model 3 Performance. Even the most basic BMW 3 with any option would likely start out higher. I would expect a top spec BMW 3 to be much higher.

TBH it was the first one there done to humour you. I really don't care.

[NorthamptonBear]

3 minutes ago, mynamehere said:

We literally sold our ICE yesterday. Was suprised at the price we got, much higher than expected. 

There is still demand for the old dino burners yet

Congrats, takes a while for everyone to cotton on. Might be nearly new, could be older but any car has utility until maintenance costs / access to low emission zones becomes annoying.

[Jean-Luc]

8 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Funny, I spoke with a friend recently - once they had an EV, all their other cars were left unused. Common - people get an EV/Tesla as a second car & end up getting rid of others, getting another EV.

Not im my experience. Of the ~20 or so people I know who have a SS EV all have an ICE in the household as well and none I have spoken to are giving them up.

[NorthamptonBear]

3 minutes ago, daveyj said:

TBH it was the first one there done to humour you. I really don't care.

Thank you for humouring me. I'd guess it's probably sorted by cheapest, so low spec BMW 3 vs highest spec Tesla. Just a few options (often viewed as essential) on BMW would make it a similar price.

Quote

£920 per month for the BMW 3 series saloon vs £1226 per month for Tesla M3P

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by NorthamptonBear

[mynamehere]

2 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Congrats, takes a while for everyone to cotton on. Might be nearly new, could be older but any car has utility until maintenance costs / access to low emission zones becomes annoying.

We just got bored of all the little things that went wrong with it. And the stress of trusting the garages not to rip us off with servicing etc.

Tesla warrenty is reliable, couple of clicks in the app, and most of the time mobile service just turn up and fix it

Edited April 26, 2023 by mynamehere

[NorthamptonBear]

1 minute ago, mynamehere said:

We just got bored of all the little things that went wrong with it. And the stress of trusting the garages not to rip us off with servicing etc.

Tesla warrenty is reliable and mobile service can fix most stuff.

Yep, always a stressful time, MOTs/service on older ICE I've always preferred mobile mechanics, tyre service. Tesla Rangers are fantastic.

Every visit to a dealership was like nails down a blackboard. Hateful places.

[GenZ]

Best thing about my Tesla is the free parking, you can park in town for 4 hours for free ( you need to be charging) but if you just connect the cable the parking warden leave you alone.  I charge for free at work and have forgotten what those smelly petrol stations are.  It use to cost me over 100 quid to fill up.  The cars amazing to drive never going back.

Public charging infrastructure needs to be improved.  

[Aidan Ap Word]

7 hours ago, Gurgle said:

On 24/04/2023 at 18:19, Aidan Ap Word said:

I would have to be a right idiot to suggest that an ICE car would do a better job than an EV (assuming I can afford one). I can afford one, and I do have a driveway so I will not be an idiot.

Very unclear how you came to the conclusion 

Safer, More practical, Quicker, Greater function, Lower maintenance cost. To name a few.

[Gurgle]

16 hours ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

Safer, More practical, Quicker, Greater function, Lower maintenance cost. To name a few.

So we are back to a lack of facts again. 

 

Safer:  Many cars are just as safe.  

More practical:  Very much depends how you measure practicality.   For me an EV is hugely impractical for day to life.  An XC60 for example would be a significantly more practical family car than a Tesla Model Y and just as safe too

Quicker:  Counteracts your safety point.  Firstly, in the real world you can't use the 0-60 times some electric cars offer, it's a marketing gimmick.  Secondly, in the hands of the majority of people its dangerous because most people have no clue how to drive safely at speed or with high acceleration

Greater function:  Not really, there's a lot of gimmicky features in some EV models but generally they are comparable with most ICEs.  The reality is that most people don't use half the features in their cars.

Lower Maintenance costs:  Maintenance costs alone are not a valid measure, whole life costs are.  Given that electric cars are generally very expensive to buy, the reduced maintenance costs and perceived reduced energy costs need to be significant to offset the initial extra price of the vehicle and any additional interest you might pay due to higher borrowing if you're financing.  Further, if you're a Tesla owner then you took a massive depreciation recently on your vehicle as they reduced prices.  Another reason why I'd never buy a Tesla, Musk is too unpredictable.

So far I'm seeing that actually you'd be an idiot NOT to consider an ICE too.

[Staffsknot]

Injecting a little objectivity:

- two friends have bought Teslas and another the new Renault Zoe

- I replaced my old car wth new diesel 

They pay less on work commute and love them.

They bitch incessently about range if they do more than 100 mile round trip.

One trip up to Skye from Slough for them was particularly frought and sparked a 'never again' style row. They stopped several times and in end Travel Lodged on way up.

Relatives in an ICE left them and got there a day earlier and much less bickering.

It depends on your needs - urban commute great, longer than 200 miles and you need to start factoring in multiple stops ad not just quick breaks.

Things will change as ranges improve but everyone with an ICE is not an idiot

Edited April 27, 2023 by Staffsknot