One-percent Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, dgul said: I think that's right. I remember back in the early 1980s, there were many news reports about pensioners in poverty. Now, they really were in poverty. So, they changed the system to support the pensioners. It looks like they're getting ready to reverse this. We'll have the next 30 years with pensioners having lower support. Okay, right now it'll not have that great an impact, but the changes made will still be in place in 30 years time when there will be pensioner poverty again (because pensions won't be giving good returns and pensioners won't have had a massive rise in property values to support them). I also remember in the nineties and noughties when pensions were 'awash' with money so much so,that corporations were taking pension breaks. In other words, they argued that pension funds were so well funded that they did not need to pay the employer contribution into the pot. Iirc, they even took money out, using the same arguments. We now have underfunded pensions and for many the real,threat of them not paying out at all for some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travisher Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Definitely fake news. I've been paying in about a third of my gross earnings for over ten years to a private pension. Projected income if I keep this up is around a third of my current income with nearly decade more work and inflation before then. I can only do this because Mum left enough to pay off the mortgage. Most are not so lucky. Returns on investment at the moment mean I'd be better off shoving it under the mattress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, dgul said: I found this graph interesting: If you speak with a pensioner about it the excuse always goes that it is the rich pensioners that are doing well, but that 'they' aren't doing so well. But this graph shows that the poorer pensioners have been better off than the equivalent sector of the working age population since 2003. Is there a definition of what they mean by "typical"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, One-percent said: Yep, having impoverished the rest of the population, tptb have their sights firmly set on the last little bit unaffected. im not a pensioner, yet, but have paid taxes all my life, into a pension since starting work. I've seen my state pension, as have all on here, increased to 67/8. My private pension, which I'll say again, I've paid for increase in line so I can't take that until 67/8. Now they seem to be saying that once I collect on what has been paid for, they will tax at 40 percent above 20k. wake up people, it's classic divide and rule to enrich the elite. For private pension I assume you mean 57/8. Can I ask how old you are? I'm currently 44 and I believe I'm one of the last still in line for 55 for private pension. I also can find no evidence that the 10 years below State Pension has yet been passed into law. Of course the rules can be changed tomorrow etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Travisher said: Definitely fake news. I've been paying in about a third of my gross earnings for over ten years to a private pension. Projected income if I keep this up is around a third of my current income with nearly decade more work and inflation before then. I can only do this because Mum left enough to pay off the mortgage. Most are not so lucky. Returns on investment at the moment mean I'd be better off shoving it under the mattress. What has you're annual return been? In the last 9.1 years I've managed a real 4.1% and I'm happy with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just now, wish I could afford one said: For private pension I assume you mean 57/8. Can I ask how old you are? I'm currently 44 and I believe I'm one of the last still in line for 55 for private pension. I also can find no evidence that the 10 years below State Pension has yet been passed into law. Of course the rules can be changed tomorrow etc etc. Nope, I have a USS pension, for university staff and a few, couple? Of years ago the rules were changed to bring the age it can be claimed in line with the state pension age. So, at the moment 67 but I'm not holding out any hope that it will stay at that. We all joke at work about pushing each other round in wheelchairs and sharing Zimmer frames. You might be in line for 55, but it does depend on the rules of your particular scheme. im 55 this year and when I started paying in, it was 55 too. Bitter? Me? No of course not. the bar stewards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: What has you're annual return been? In the last 9.1 years I've managed a real 4.1% and I'm happy with that. I've still not read your book, too busy posting carp on here but still have it saved, ready for reading on the kindle. How are the sales going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, One-percent said: Nope, I have a USS pension, for university staff and a few, couple? Of years ago the rules were changed to bring the age it can be claimed in line with the state pension age. So, at the moment 67 but I'm not holding out any hope that it will stay at that. We all joke at work about pushing each other round in wheelchairs and sharing Zimmer frames. You might be in line for 55, but it does depend on the rules of your particular scheme. im 55 this year and when I started paying in, it was 55 too. Bitter? Me? No of course not. the bar stewards Ahh thanks for clarifying. So a DB scheme. Can you not get access earlier even if it derates your annual payout? My scheme is my own SIPP's so very vanilla and everything I have has been done by me. I'm at the mercy of the government only... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, billybong said: DC people have been retiring since pensions began although it's fair to say there are more of them now than in the past because of the DB pensions are being/have been phased out. DC Pensions have been around as long as DB schemes. I think the returns on some DC schemes were in fact as good if not better than some DB schemes prior to the millennium (equities returned an average 13% per annum in the 1980s and 1990s) and of course annuity rates on encashment were far better back then. It should be remembered that the equity bull market over those decades allowed a lot of companies to take pensions holidays in DB schemes (ie they made no employers contributions to the schemes when they were in surplus so it was only the employees contributions that were paid into the scheme in some years). They could not do the same with most money purchase schemes where their contribution was fixed by the terms of the scheme Edited February 13, 2017 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Si1 said: The Guardian giving effective opposition for the first time in years: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/13/rich-pensioners-tax ^ Quote It means retired BT engineers, school headteachers and middle managers across a wide range of businesses from BP to Unilever, and not Britain’s 31 million workers, are the ones pushing up average income figures. This group of baby boomers worked for employers with generous guaranteed pension schemes and can now enjoy several holidays a year, a 4x4 in the driveway and provide a deposit for their grandchild’s first home. With some of the companies it very much depended on the fund and when you left the fund. If you stayed until retirement (most likely early retirement) then you might get a very good deal - otherwise not so much and contractor employees who worked on/off for companies like that would most likely have had to make their own arrangements. School headteachers would most likely be public sector so that's another ball game again. The point being that like everyone else the guardian shouldn't generalise and shouldn't use the expression baby boomers as an excuse all to cover every problem either. Edited February 13, 2017 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, One-percent said: I've still not read your book, too busy posting carp on here but still have it saved, ready for reading on the kindle. How are the sales going? 200 downloads/orders thus far. A bit disappointed TBH. I really hoped the book would spread the message a bit further than my blog but it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. Hey ho it was still great fun putting it all down on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, wish I could afford one said: Ahh thanks for clarifying. So a DB scheme. Can you not get access earlier even if it derates your annual payout? My scheme is my own SIPP's so very vanilla and everything I have has been done by me. I'm at the mercy of the government only... Not as far as I can see nope. I've followed your posts and don't think it will work for me; to near to wanting to access it for there to be much traction built in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, stormymonday_2011 said: DC Pensions have been around as long as DB schemes. I think the returns on some DC schemes were in fact as good if not better than some DB schemes prior to the millennium (equities returned an average 13% per annum in the 1989s and 1990s) and of course annuity rates on encashment were far better back then. It should be remembered that the equity bull market over those decades allowed a lot of companies to take pensions holidays in DB schemes (ie they made no employers contributions to the schemes when they were in surplus so it was only the employees contributions that were paid into the scheme in some years). They could not do the same with most money purchase schemes where their contribution was fixed by the terms of the scheme Not to forget funds like Equitable Life either - the funds that turned out to be dodgy for hundreds of thousands.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-percent Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, wish I could afford one said: 200 downloads/orders thus far. A bit disappointed TBH. I really hoped the book would spread the message a bit further than my blog but it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. Hey ho it was still great fun putting it all down on paper. That's hpc effect then it might need to be marketed to a wider audience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, One-percent said: Not as far as I can see nope. I've followed your posts and don't think it will work for me; to near to wanting to access it for there to be much traction built in That's a shame. Can you build some wealth in ISA's / non-tax shelters to enable you to tide you over until you can get access? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, One-percent said: That's hpc effect then it might need to be marketed to a wider audience? Problem is I quite like it here. I also don't think mumsnet is going to be the appropriate audience either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Ben Goldacre Tweeting about this https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/831201023226236928 As he says " ..A country where "income from hard work" cannot outbid "unearned wealth from inflation or inheritance" to buy a home is toxic and broken.. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travisher Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Difficult to do the sums at the moment, possibly about 3% but only because of below. Just hit 59 years with retirement set at 67. One bright note was in Dec 2015 I stripped out anything involving commercial property in the face of contrary advice as I'd just overseen an office fit out in the city for utterly stupid money. That saved me quite a lot of pain when comical property funds got the wind up over liquidity last spring. I pushed it into commodities as it was clear oil was in its usual 15 year slump and then commodities started to recover. As they are priced in dollars this will help in the short term. Not sure which way to jump after that. Colleagues who just go with the advice given made the square root of naff-all in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travisher Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, billybong said: Not to forget funds like Equitable Life either - the funds that turned out to be dodgy for hundreds of thousands.. It was Equitable Life that drove me to watch my current pension fund like a hawk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 38 minutes ago, billybong said: Is there a definition of what they mean by "typical"? There are three pairs of curves. The middle pair (median) are for a pensioner and working person who both have as many people earning more than them as earning less than them. I'd guess that this is what most people would call 'typical'. For completeness, the top pair is the 80th percentile -- that is, those for whom there are four times as many people earning less than them than more than them. The bottom two pairs are the 20th percentile, for whom there are four times as many people earning more than earning less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) It is clear from governments own income survey that pensioner incomes were rising much faster in the decade prior to the 2008 than they have been in the past 8 years. In fact for the period 2008 to 2014 the main difference between pensioners and working age people is that while the former have seen their income expectations stall the latter have seen them decline. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/pensioners-incomes-series-financial-year-201415 Strange that no one was writing articles on this subject prior to 2008. I wonder why Edited February 13, 2017 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RentingForever Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: Ahh thanks for clarifying. So a DB scheme. Can you not get access earlier even if it derates your annual payout? My scheme is my own SIPP's so very vanilla and everything I have has been done by me. I'm at the mercy of the government only... Could it be that DC schemes will actually work out a better deal than the 'gold-plated' DB schemes? sure, you get less back in total but you get it a decade earlier. Looking at my folks and their friends I'll be too knackered at 67 to do anything sensible with a pension, but at 57 that's a different matter. As for working all the way to 67... forget it! Edited February 13, 2017 by RentingForever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CunningPlan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Just watched Esther Rantzen on new newsnight. Did she really say the young were moaning because they couldn't afford a bigger tv? I used to have some respect for her. Edited February 13, 2017 by CunningPlan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dgul said: There are three pairs of curves. The middle pair (median) are for a pensioner and working person who both have as many people earning more than them as earning less than them. I'd guess that this is what most people would call 'typical'. For completeness, the top pair is the 80th percentile -- that is, those for whom there are four times as many people earning less than them than more than them. The bottom two pairs are the 20th percentile, for whom there are four times as many people earning more than earning less. Thank you. It looks like since 2001 disposable incomes after housing costs have pretty much flatlined for typical and below typical workers. Typical and below typical pensioners incomes kept pace with (maybe a bit above) official inflation until the crash around 2008/2009 and then they also more or less flatlined to date. Typical pensioners overtook typical workers soon after the 2008/2009 crash and poorer pensioners started to overtake poorer workers around 2001 - but they've only just started to notice it all now - typical It's not just a recent phenomenon for typical workers and typical pensioners it happened just after the crash nearly a decade ago. From the emphasis and the stance of the article it sounds like they're now going to have a go at the bottom 50% or so of pensioners again a lot of whom were already ripped off by pension fraud, employers' pension holidays, harsh and discriminatory pension fund rules for short term contractor employees, zirp and QE etc helping to knock annuity rates along with Brown's pension dividend policies and so on. Mind you it seems pretty clear that the above typical category (p80) of workers and pensioners seemed to do all right until the crash even if those pensioners didn't quite overtake those workers. I assume the charts include allowance for tax credits and benefits etc as if those were on top it might show a much different picture. Edited February 14, 2017 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hp72 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 2 hours ago, CunningPlan said: We can only judge by what we see. Round my way, the btl farmers are the pensioners. The only people in the gastropubs are the pensioners. The ones slagging off the kids for having an end of school party are the pensioners (despite having very late, loud barn dances themselves). The ones that think it is fine for their kids to move 100 miles away as 'they have no right to live where they grew up' are the pensioners. The ones that block a skate park but authorise a (never used) petanq pitch are the pensioners. The ones that thwart every single planning application, even the reasonable ones, are the pensioners. The ones that moan that someone mowing their lawn should be grateful for £7 per hour are the pensioners. The ones that campaign that the local woods are for dog walkers, not kids on bmx bikes, are the pensioners. The ones that have the parish clerk on speed dial in case of kids having fun in the park are pensioners. The ones that wanted a local cafe, but don't want it to open before 9am, in case van drivers use, it are pensioners. The ones that moan about mess kids leave in the park, despite the worst mess being dog poo, are pensioners. The ones that approve tens of thousands being spent on the village hall, yet nothing on the knackered scout hut Honestly, are you living In the Same hampshire Village i I am? This is exactly the same here.... It will die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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