Chickens Roosting - Barratt "dream Homes" Scheme Screwed Up My Life

[Guest_northshore_*]

So which one is correct? Does anyone know whether the Barratt "Dream Start" (not sure if that's correct but whatever it's called) scheme was based on a shared ownership arrangement or a second charge on the house?

No, but according to a similar scheme:

3. The remaining 15% of the purchase price becomes a second charge on your Property

5. You can repay the second charge loan at any time within 10 years of completion. This can be done either when you sell or transfer the property to a third party or enter into any transfer of equity in the future, or at the end of 10 years from the date of Legal Completion, whichever is sooner. In the event of genuine hardship at the end of the 10 year period, the repayment period may be extended for up to a maximum of a further 5 years. You must notify us in writing before the 10th anniversary of Legal Completion if you are suffering such hardship. Each application for an extension will be dealt with on a case by case basis by Barratt.

6.The second charge will be repayable on the basis of the value [N.B. value may be less than the price or more than the price paid on completion in a forced sale] of your property at the time of future sale or transfer as opposed to the original purchase price. This means that whether your property increases or decreases in value, you will only be liable for the same percentage of the value of your home at the time of future sale or transfer or at the end of the 10 year period from legal completion if you choose not to sell.

http://www.barratthomes.co.uk/Offers/Head-Start/Head-Start-terms-and-conditions/

[Venger]

If I was really smart I would have backed my instinct that you've basically lost the plot and it was time stop reading your posts. Lesson learned. Good luck with the crusade. Gordon sends his love.

Ok, but £250,000+ average terraces around here, £300K-£400K average semis, it's certainly not been mostly low IQ on the buyer side, and ignorance is no excuse for the buyer side who have been paying ever higher prices to set these values (although admittedly you say you also want HPC). Same for Cambridge Fellows buying £2m+ mews properties to put immediately on the rental market just some 12+ months ago. Ignorance is not low IQ.

You expect a lot from your Labour ideals from this Labour Party - some of their main hpi guys from bubble 1.0 are still well in position; oh we got a last moment play to renters from them the other day, about capping rents. Nice. Yes, it will happen with HPC, but no one on the housing wealth / landlord side / high IQ recent-ish buyer at mad prices... is just going to volunteer to have their assets handed over to anyone else at lower prices in some bizarre altruistic 'sit down' to 'redesign the system' for fairness. Only by HPC.

When I reflect on two evenings door-stopping for the Labour party, in a rock solid Tory constituency, in 2010, largely I'm embarrassed that I had the brass neck to bother people when at that time I was so ignorant about the changes in the structure of the UK mortgage market that took place under Brown. As my knowledge of mortgage finance has grown there have been times when my disgust about what happened under Brown at the Treasury has made me think about ending my membership of the Labour party, but haven't yet done so and probably never will. For me, being a member of a political party is a way of showing that I haven't given up on the idea that power should vest in the people and the people need to work to ensure that power is wielded to further their interests and not to oppress them. As to policy matters, generally, I really couldn't care two hoots. I'm a Labour party member out of a woolly allegiance to the idea that we need to find ways to cooperate with each other to solve some of our problems and that some problems are very difficult to solve if approached solely by individuals acting in an uncoordinated way, attempting only to further their own interests.

When you use my politics as an insult, it doesn't really strike home. You think I was wrong. In lots of ways, I think I was wrong. You think that just pointing out that I door-stopped for Brown, the hpc uber villain, is an insult. I don't think it is. Even if I was wrong, I'm glad I acted as if politics mattered. I don't agree with the young Tory who knocked on my door, but I don't despise him. He has his beliefs, I have mine. Nobody is being rounded up and shot for what they believe. It's another beautiful day in a nation that has a great deal to recommend it, even if the house prices are too high.

[spyguy]

In my summer holidays, I used to wash pots and work on a building site.

This is a while back, the low end jobs where done by UK nationals.

I would guess that ~30% of the people I worked with could not follow written instructions.

Some were out + out illiterate. The majority just could not comprehend a list of instructions. They'd get most right but just make up or mis read one step.

At the hotel, I worked with 2 sisters. One has worked her way up from a council house in the 80s to quite big place now - and a similar size mortgage too.

The other apparently has a a couple of BTLs - she's loaded says my Mum, 2 houses rented out!

I used to have help both girls with percentages - the hotel used to run promotions and neither could work the calculator to work out some of the deals. I don't think either's maths have improved over the year.

When I quizzed my mum whether either sister had a big mortgage, my Mum said: 'Im sure the bank won't loan them money they cannot afford to pay back'.

When I went through a holiday cottage 'proposition' from my Mum, I first calculated the interest on the loan. 'Stop', said my Mum, ' I can't do percentages'. The rest of the figures - weeks let, high season values, etc, just fell by the wayside. I hit a brick wall at step 1.

And, within those anecdotes, is the whole problem in the UK.

Only a small (less than 30%) is probably competent enough with Maths to work out what whether a property is going to make money or not.

The majority rely on the assumption that the banks will not let them do anything stupid. And the banks seem to be no better at pricing loans.

2001-2008 BTL all depends on the charity of the BoE, keeping rates low.

Using the Taylor rule, BoE base rate should be about 3%. An OO mortgage with 70% LTV should have a spread of ~3% over base.

A BTL loan should have a spread of about 6%+ over base - not because its unethical but because BTL is fcking risky loan.

[Venger]

Jung's assessment of Freud and Nietzsche in Memories, Dreams, Reflections comes to mind when considering the behaviour of intelligent people on matters which hold deep emotional resonance:

"Wherever the psyche is set violently oscillating by a numinous experience, there is a danger that the thread by which one hangs may be torn. Should that happen, one man tumbles into an absolute affirmation, another into an equally absolute negation. Nirdvandva (freedom from opposites) is the Orient's remedy for this. I have not forgotten that. The pendulum of the mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not between right an wrong. The numinosum is dangerous because it lures men to extremes, so that a modest truth is regarded as the truth and a minor mistake is equated with fatal error. Tout passe-yesterday's truth is today's deception, and yesterday's false inference may be tomorrow's revelation. This is particularly so in pschological matters, of which, if truth were told, we still know very little."

That's deep; I don't entirely get the main point though.

[Venger]

And, within those anecdotes, is the whole problem in the UK.

Only a small (less than 30%) is probably competent enough with Maths to work out what whether a property is going to make money or not.

The majority rely on the assumption that the banks will not let them do anything stupid. And the banks seem to be no better at pricing loans.

2001-2008 BTL all depends on the charity of the BoE, keeping rates low.

Using the Taylor rule, BoE base rate should be about 3%. An OO mortgage with 70% LTV should have a spread of ~3% over base.

A BTL loan should have a spread of about 6%+ over base - not because its unethical but because BTL is fcking risky loan.

I wonder what asking prices for houses these 'innocent' buyers who are hopeless at maths (who you suggest are buying to 'MAKE MONEY' vs a home to live in) will ever recoil from?

House prices around here going up and up for years, active buyers and sellers almost every day, transacting at higher prices (maybe a turn ahead though finally - but also who knows... so many painful reflation stages).

Many a low IQer with low maths knowledge are sharp about money too; they're not all pushing and falling over themselves to pay high prices for houses.

Real life conversation:

"Well, you see kids today out drinking and partying every day, and buying nice things - why aren't they saving for a home? When we were 21 we didn't go out or treat ourselves for *six months* when we were saving up a deposit. And we had to scrimp and scrape our furniture from family throw-aways: we sat on boxes for the first two years!"

Would you trade your current situation for this level of hardship?

It's not wonder the kids like a drink!

My working class MIL (who is now independently wealthy due to legacies) says "I will vote for anyone who will increase my pension"

There is a level of greed sometimes seen in people who didn't start off with very much and who now have a lot.

Comparing to the other older members of the family who are badly off, don't own their own homes and are genuinely worried about what is facing the younger members. They see the young families living in rented homes and forced to move every 6 months or a year. They see that the standard of these rented houses is poor compared to what they lived in previously and how tenuous some of their job prospects are.

Those with the money seem to be clinging onto it and openly selfish.

Because as my dad pointed out (my parents are currently looking for new home), about a house he viewed for £500000, someone's going to get a bargain with that one! (It was too big for them, they're looking to downsize)

When people are so deluded that they think a three-bedroom house, at £500000, is a bargain (whatever has been done with the interior) and average wages are stuck around the mid 20k's. What is the point of trying to save for home! Not that going without your favourite biscuits or cutting down a pint or two a week is going to help to save much towards a deposit of this magnitude! No wonder the government want to make borrowing easier! Its the only way these ridiculous prices can be maintained.

Yep, I have heard this type of thing many times before!

In the early 70s, you could buy a house for 3 times the average wage. Now it is 12 times (more in some areas) meaning that it is just as painful saving up for a 25% deposit as it would have been for boomers back then to save up to buy their whole house without a mortgage. I doubt any of them would have even thought about doing that, but still they won't accept that it is more difficult now.

I realise the is over-simplified with respect to interest rates etc, but it is a pretty frightening fact.

I never get why the deluded Boomers almost always drag buying the first set of furniture into it when trying to explain why the youngsters can't buy their first house. Er hello, buying the furniture comes after buying the house?

Edit: Also, what a heartbreaking tale, sitting on boxes in your own house at the age of 21 and a half.

I refuse point black to pay 10 times my salary for what my folks got for 3-4. Must admit though, I'd love to slap a few people that spout the lines... "young have never had it so easy". Yep, whilst i have to pay x10, you paid x3-4. Easy huh?

[LiveinHope]

SNIP

And, within those anecdotes, is the whole problem in the UK.

Only a small (less than 30%) is probably competent enough with Maths to work out what whether a property is going to make money or not.

The majority rely on the assumption that the banks will not let them do anything stupid. And the banks seem to be no better at pricing loans.

SNIP

Limited mathematical ability, a culture that sees borrowing as the norm, and belief that houses really are money trees¹. Lambs to the slaughter.

I quite enjoy paying cash at checkouts. Letting the cashier ring up £4.58 and enter my £5.00 note as payment, and then I offer 8p. I don't do it to be mean or take the mickey, it's more of a personal UK maths ability survey.

¹ I'll add 'greed' too

Edited April 26, 2015 by LiveinHope

[Neverwhere]

No, but according to a similar scheme:

http://www.barratthomes.co.uk/Offers/Head-Start/Head-Start-terms-and-conditions/

Thanks, that's interesting. Looks like Barratt would get nothing if the MN OP sold in negative equity then, as opposed to a shared ownership scheme where I would guess the primary lender (the bank) would only have a first charge secured against the owner's share of the property and would therefore have to take more of a hit...

[Killer Bunny]

Only a small (less than 30%) is probably competent enough with Maths to work out what whether a property is going to make money or not.

And the other 80%...?

[Neverwhere]

That's deep; I don't entirely get the main point though.

The main point, at least the one which I was trying to make, is that when a subject has a deep emotional resonance it tends to encourage extreme position taking. It's often hard for people to take a mild stance on an issue which they care deeply about and which they feel affects them directly. Not only can intelligence be overridden by this emotional aspect to decision-making, it can also be subsequently enlisted to both explain and forward any resulting position regardless of whether or not the position itself is intelligent.

When first considering an emotive issue we might swing from one extreme of the metaphorical pendulum to the other, in fact we might see it as a simple choice between two extremes with no perception of the full range in-between; but on making a choice we often cut the string entirely as it's much easier to justify taking a position on something so deeply important to us if we can convince ourselves that ours is the only correct position to take. This is problematic not only because the mind oscillates between intellectual reason and emotive desire - and so the choice may be entirely nonsensical from the start - but because the world is uncertain and to deny that uncertainty is always to choose nonsense of one degree or another.

Essentially, I think that regardless of how intelligent people are there is a general tendency to be either all in or all out on house prices because the underlying issue - of having secure homes for ourselves and for our families - is so emotive that it's very hard to take a purely intellectual approach. Being intelligent is not enough to actually guarantee that someone will act intelligently.

I understand your position that we just need to get on and have a HPC - and we do - but I also think that it's quite likely that if we do get a significant HPC the aftermath would include some efforts at reforming the current system. It therefore seems useful to me to discuss why this particular property bubble has gotten so out of hand and what reforms would actually be useful, if only so we can have a sound intellectual footing with which to come on here and bitch about how wrong TPTB are actually getting it if that does happen

[Bland Unsight]

Jung's assessment of Freud and Nietzsche in Memories, Dreams, Reflections comes to mind when considering the behaviour of intelligent people on matters which hold deep emotional resonance:

"Wherever the psyche is set violently oscillating by a numinous experience, there is a danger that the thread by which one hangs may be torn. Should that happen, one man tumbles into an absolute affirmation, another into an equally absolute negation. Nirdvandva (freedom from opposites) is the Orient's remedy for this. I have not forgotten that. The pendulum of the mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong. The numinosum is dangerous because it lures men to extremes, so that a modest truth is regarded as the truth and a minor mistake is equated with fatal error. Tout passe - yesterday's truth is today's deception, and yesterday's false inference may be tomorrow's revelation. This is particularly so in psychological matters, of which, if truth were told, we still know very little."

Edit: damn I made a lot of typos in transcripting that...

That's really interesting.

It's also really helpful. Thank you.

It's a while since I read any of MDR. You've prompted me to reflect on the fact that it may have been too long. Your quote sent me straight back to a passage in Anthony Steven's On Jung, and another MDR quote concerning when the dude went batshit mental and rocked around his garden talking to imaginary people whilst his wife and his mistress lived together in the same house with him and kept the show on the road.

...he declares that anyone involved in work with the unconscious should have he benefit of another's point of view, for even the Pope has a confessor. 'Women are particularly gifted for playing such a part,' he says. 'They often have excellent intuition and a trenchant critical insight...They see aspects that the man does not see' (MDR, p.133)

[Bland Unsight]

...

This is problematic not only because the mind oscillates between intellectual reason and emotive desire - and so the choice may be entirely nonsensical from the start - but because the world is uncertain and to deny that uncertainty is always to choose nonsense of one degree or another.

...

Spot on.

[Bland Unsight]

Is this thread now bigger than the MN one?

Well, they are at 11 pages at time of writing, but we are at 8. However, I think we get more on a page. And I think we now have much more about Carl Gustav Jung, so essentially we are winning at a canter, as best I see it. Welcome to the hpc.

[Executive Sadman]

Real life conversation:

"Well, you see kids today out drinking and partying every day, and buying nice things - why aren't they saving for a home? When we were 21 we didn't go out or treat ourselves for *six months* when we were saving up a deposit. And we had to scrimp and scrape our furniture from family throw-aways: we sat on boxes for the first two years!"

Would you trade your current situation for this level of hardship?

It's not wonder the kids like a drink!

Disgusting, isnt it? If all the 20 somethings are going out drinking, why are all the pubs and clubs closing. 10 years ago fridays and saturdays it would be heaving...before my time, but 20 years ago apparently it was even busier. Now the smaller towns around me are dead at weekends. Cambridge is still reasonably busy, but only at weekends...10 years ago students would be out weeknights...no more...and supposedly cambridge is a boom town.

https://thump.vice.com/en_uk/article/clubbed-to-death-how-can-we-save-nightclubs-from-closing

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2283119

Another one is all 'the youngsters' spending masses on music and video games. Im sure im not the only one, but I cant remember the last time I paid to listen to music or watch a film. Few people spend huge sums on these...on the contrary, my parents and their peers built up massive record collections in the 70s and 80s...must have spent lots.

[spyguy]

Real life conversation:

"Well, you see kids today out drinking and partying every day, and buying nice things - why aren't they saving for a home? When we were 21 we didn't go out or treat ourselves for *six months* when we were saving up a deposit. And we had to scrimp and scrape our furniture from family throw-aways: we sat on boxes for the first two years!"

Would you trade your current situation for this level of hardship?

It's not wonder the kids like a drink!

Disgusting, isnt it? If all the 20 somethings are going out drinking, why are all the pubs and clubs closing. 10 years ago fridays and saturdays it would be heaving...before my time, but 20 years ago apparently it was even busier. Now the smaller towns around me are dead at weekends. Cambridge is still reasonably busy, but only at weekends...10 years ago students would be out weeknights...no more...and supposedly cambridge is a boom town.

https://thump.vice.com/en_uk/article/clubbed-to-death-how-can-we-save-nightclubs-from-closing

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2283119

Another one is all 'the youngsters' spending masses on music and video games. Im sure im not the only one, but I cant remember the last time I paid to listen to music or watch a film. Few people spend huge sums on these...on the contrary, my parents and their peers built up massive record collections in the 70s and 80s...must have spent lots.

I can believe the scrimping + saving of my now dead grandparents. Would have been ~100ih is still alive.

Not my parents - they were bailed out constantly by now dead grand parents.

Frankly, when I go out, the majority of people around are well over 50 and are eating out.

I'd quite enjoy a drunken brawl at midnight these days, at least it would show people are till going out.

The big expense for people now aged mid-40s to 70s would have been cars. They spent fortunes on buying + running them.

Less and less people under 30 are bothering to drive.

[spyguy]

And the other 80%...?

BTL millionaires!

[spyguy]

Limited mathematical ability, a culture that sees borrowing as the norm, and belief that houses really are money trees¹. Lambs to the slaughter.

I quite enjoy paying cash at checkouts. Letting the cashier ring up £4.58 and enter my £5.00 note as payment, and then I offer 8p. I don't do it to be mean or take the mickey, it's more of a personal UK maths ability survey.

¹ I'll add 'greed' too

Rather than work stuff out, most seem to want to borrow the money and assume it'll somehow work its way out.

Although this applies to the holiday let people it does apply for BTLers too - if they are really struggling they hire an accountant on the assumption he can do some magic maths that'll make up the 5k deficit on their loan.

[Venger]

I would guess that ~30% of the people I worked with could not follow written instructions.

Some were out + out illiterate. The majority just could not comprehend a list of instructions. They'd get most right but just make up or mis read one step.

[...]And, within those anecdotes, is the whole problem in the UK.

Only a small (less than 30%) is probably competent enough with Maths to work out what whether a property is going to make money or not.

The majority rely on the assumption that the banks will not let them do anything stupid. And the banks seem to be no better at pricing loans.

2001-2008 BTL all depends on the charity of the BoE, keeping rates low.

Using the Taylor rule, BoE base rate should be about 3%. An OO mortgage with 70% LTV should have a spread of ~3% over base.

A BTL loan should have a spread of about 6%+ over base - not because its unethical but because BTL is fcking risky loan.

So they can never look at a house and recoil from the asking price... ?

Those buying (at ever higher prices) to "make money" - via Dreamstart from many many many years ago - or now with schemes, regular mortgages, BTL (Milkshock and squeezing in renters in expectation of future rent increases) or just lashing themselves to the forever HPI balloon - are making their own decisions.

Why should I have any sympathy for the owner/buyer side... at these prices. "Make money" indeed. It's a market.

And I think you're doing a disservice to millions of younger people - from all walks of life including those not good at math but who are 'street' enough to puke at the asking prices - who don't buy/choose not to buy-get jumbo mortgage and who recoil from the prices. Those awaiting lower house prices / lower rents.

Rather than work stuff out, most seem to want to borrow the money and assume it'll somehow work its way out.

Although this applies to the holiday let people it does apply for BTLers too - if they are really struggling they hire an accountant on the assumption he can do some magic maths that'll make up the 5k deficit on their loan.

Some people. Millions of renters for BTL landlords, many awaiting lower rents / hpc to buy.. others holding off from upsizing.

When houses like this are asking such prices, in Scarborough, hanging on market for ages... low interest rates and QE etc pulling in more idiots / holding off correction / value discovery (so many boomers with higher end property worth fortunes oblivious and greedily saying how it's all so easy)... then it's HPC we need - not excuse giving for people who couldn't ever have any understanding that values are so expensive, with endless excuses ("banks exist to ensure you make big profits" - WTF) for those who've pushed them up to such heights year after year - regular "make money" house buyers, or BTLers or anyone. It's a market.

In a place far, far away from London. Nothing really sells. Big houses, little houses, whatever houses.

Doing my weeklyish RM search on places listed in the last 7 days, 3 miles radius Scarborough. This one pops up again:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-39887540.html

They've dropped the price from 400k to 350k.

Its two houses plus a works yard, so its only 250k over priced rather than 300k overpriced.

Its has the most stupid, 'See you in court'/'Why would an EA put this in writing' description:

Detailed Description changed: Full description Tenure: Freehold ***INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY***POTENTIAL FOR SIX LETTING UNITS***APPROX £3,000 PER MONTH*** Currently comprising of a pair of two bedroom semi detached houses in good order, a warehouse/workshop at the rear with potential for two generous flats and then three garages and a courtyard within which the vendor has had verbal agreement from the council that it would be possible to build two further houses on.

I'm guessing he's been chatting to the local street cleaner then?

If - and a big if - they built the extra houses - and that yard does not look that big. They could get about 400/month per house. The 2 existing houses would need gutting at a cost of ~30K each.

[spyguy]

Scarborough is like most places more than 100 miles from London.

The market is stuck. And has been since 2002-ish - that's 15 years for those with poor maths.

Scabby has some extra demographics going on - OAP no longer retire to the seaside; a lot Scabby businesses have blown up over the last 10 years, more so than the last lot of recessions.

QE has bailed out people who might have been forced to make a move 10 years ago.

Now they have to take their chances with all the extra people who are trying to sell their houses over the 10 years.

[Blod]

I'm ambivalent to this woman, however her financial position does offer me some schadenfreude.

Have we been led astray by her story and its implications when the real issue is that Barratt Homes have banked non existing profits.

The true market value for that home was well below what she paid. Barrett's and the lenders were happy at the time to bank their extra profits from this sale.

Most of the current house selling schemes have had to be underwritten by us, the taxpayer. Whether that is to prevent value realisation in the market or prevent the house builders bubble bursting is neither here nor there.

The Banks at the time were hell bend on creating the largest mortgage portfolios they could as they raced against the tide of the credit crunch. With the USA market crashed they only had the UK to peddle their wares in. Hence their willingness to lend irresponsibly.

This woman should be shouting her case from the rooftops and bleating to every paper she can to. She should start a Facebook page for others affected. She should be encouraged to help people avoid overpaying for their homes.

In fact maybe we should setup a Facebook page to advertise the plight the market has created?

[Venger]

The true market value for that home was well below what she paid. Barrett's and the lenders were happy at the time to bank their extra profits from this sale.

She set the market value as a buyer, as did many other buyers, who continue to do so on a daily basis... outbidding others/renters.

If there were no buyers (schemes or no schemes) the prices would have fallen.

[Blod]

She set the market value as a buyer, as did many other buyers, who continue to do so on a daily basis... outbidding others/renters.

If there were no buyers (schemes or no schemes) the prices would have fallen.

Does hiding a quarter of the cost indicate an effort on the part of the vendor to deny price discovery?

[rantnrave]

She's avoided answering whether she's on IO mortgage, so I guess they are.

[spyguy]

Scarborough is like most places more than 100 miles from London.

The market is stuck. And has been since 2002-ish - that's 15 years for those with poor maths.

Scabby has some extra demographics going on - OAP no longer retire to the seaside; a lot Scabby businesses have blown up over the last 10 years, more so than the last lot of recessions.

QE has bailed out people who might have been forced to make a move 10 years ago.

Now they have to take their chances with all the extra people who are trying to sell their houses over the 10 years.

Following on a bit.

I think the last 5 odd years have given people with too much housing debt a once-in-a-100-years chance to do one of the following:

1) Throw as much spare cash at the mortgage and get it down.

2) Sell up.

Anyone who's doubled up (or tripled, or quadrupled up, etc) is fcked.

Going back to Scarborough area, I;ve had more than one frustrating conversation to 70+years home owners who are trying to sell up.

In one case, I've pointed out they've had it on the market for 5 years. Then I pointed out that, going on average life expectancy, they've only about 10 years left.

I'm not giving it away.

No, but your estate's executor probably will have to.

Edited April 27, 2015 by spyguy

[spyguy]

She's avoided answering whether she's on IO mortgage, so I guess they are.

Or, going back by to maths comment, she does not really know.

She has a mortgage. A mortgage will pay off the house - wont it?

Its the cheapest mortgage going, cos that was what mattered as she cannot afford it otherwise..

So that makes it a really good mortgage. Her IFA is a genius (or a liar).

Bit like the the late 80s endowments.

The endowments that sold the most were the 'low-cost' ones.

They were low cost as the model used assumed a compounding rate of return of ~15%/year.

Fast forward 25 years on and all (and I mean all) of the low-cost endowments are retuning a vlaue less than if you put the money under a matress and let the mice eat it.

[spyguy]

-delete - bad edit -

Edited April 27, 2015 by spyguy