Migrants Given £5Billion Tax Credits

[the_dork]

No one seems to have explicitly mentioned the EU which is the cause of all this (80% migrants last time I checked though think it may be a bit lower now?). Having a free market in labour and capital makes you nearly 'one state', the EU is a horrible in between state with nations pooling their sovereignty on these matters but not wider policies even on economic matters like tax and spend.

We could have one state with common tax and spend (ie. British taxpayers would fund development and/or welfare payments in Romanian regions not just say, Burnley)) if people wanted this. However, due to different cultures, languages and histories I don't see why people would, even those Romanians who would gain from a narrow economic point of view. Otherwise the only realistic alternative is to go back to much looser co-operation between democratic states who could agree mutual treaties between them, such as on immigration.

The EU works well between relatively similar countries on migration (many Brits in Germany, many Germans over here for example) but when you have rich countries using it as a source of cheap labour and poorer countries using it as a way of getting funds and remittances, it's a long term disaster for everyone IMO.

And even more tragic is that UKIP are the only party who seem to realise this-on every other policy matter they are basically nuts!

[gf3]

Just been out with a friend who is friendly with a Thia girl. The story is a lad who was living with his mother went out to Thailand and married her and moved her back here to live with his mother. They have now got a 6 year old autistic girl. The marriage has broken up. The Thia mother can't speak a word of English I can understand and I rely on hand signals to understand what she is saying.

I just had a look at the house she has been given. All freshly painted new cooker fridge and washing machine.

When I lost my job after 26 years I wasn't entitled to any benefits. She must be on a lot more money than me working is all I can say.

I actually feel physically sick just thinking of the injustice.

[Corruption]

I'm not saying there aren't low skilled migrant workers BTW. Of course there are.

Just pointing out there are also 100000 medical consultants, doctors, and dentists in the UK now from overseas.

It's our fault.

We shut a lot of the training colleges for them in the late 80s early 90s and haven't bothered trying to train our own on a large scale since.

Pretty much every Indian doctor i have met has been utterly useless, i had a needless operation last year after seeing 3 Indian docs on the bounce, it was only the final doctor who bothered to read my notes prior to seeing me and this was minutes before the operation.

I have specifically requested to see a British educated doctor with regards this ongoing issue.

So my opinion of foreigners from the 3rd world in the NHS is not very high, you may call this racist if you wish.

Stop importing doctors and dentists and then we'd have to train our own, it isnt that difficult

Edited August 1, 2014 by Corruption

[Marshmellow]

95% of immigration needs to be stopped immediately. No debate. The only people allowed in should be the very rich, or those with a particular skill that is actually needed at that moment in time (brain surgeon etc).

The fabric of the country has already been irrevocably damaged as it is, but enacting the above would at least stop any further issues.

But the NHS would collapse if we dont continue to let in 50k asylum seekers each year and an unlimited number from Eastern Europe and 50k bogus students from the 3rd world.

[South Lorne]

I'm not saying there aren't low skilled migrant workers BTW. Of course there are.

Just pointing out there are also 100000 medical consultants, doctors, and dentists in the UK now from overseas.

It's our fault.

We shut a lot of the training colleges for them in the late 80s early 90s and haven't bothered trying to train our own on a large scale since.

...what would you expect from a country led by Blair, Brown and Cameron in succession ...the destroyers....

[South Lorne]

But the NHS would collapse if we dont continue to let in 50k asylum seekers each year and an unlimited number from Eastern Europe and 50k bogus students from the 3rd world.

..you are right ..because successive governments, Blair, Brown and Cameron have not invested in their own people...sad to say they all have Scottish connections....

[South Lorne]

That may actually happen. At some point we are going to need to have a grown up discussion about what the state can and can't provide. One thing is certain we are on a clearly unsustainable path as things stand.

...Brown gave us a twisted mirage ...Cameron took up the baton...

[byron78]

Stop importing doctors and dentists and then we'd have to train our own, it isnt that difficult

You can't just stop though.

Takes 10 years or so to train them properly.

Lot of death and rotten smiles to deal with in that decade until it's fixed.

It's chicken and egg, but the lack of training definitely came well before the huge influx of overseas doctors and dentists.

This isn't a new thing either btw: in 1970 30% of all doctors were trained overseas. It's actually only gone up about a third of a percent per year from that.

No idea about other trades, but I suspect our political classes just sold a lot of careers down the river in the 80s/90s knowing immigration would plug the holes at a lower cost than training/educating the indigenous UK population.

Possibly too late now. Prohibitively expensive to get a decent university education (really do think the sciences, engineering, medical, and other "proper" trades should be subsidised).

Prohibitively expensive (in terms of lost revenue and time spent training) for most employers to bother training up UK proles when they can just employ a load of cheap overseas workers instead.

The thing about private employers instead of state that rarely gets mentioned is that they really couldn't give a monkeys where their employees come from. Most are global corporations. Bottom line, all that matters to them is profit. People and passports really don't mean anything at all in the boardroom.

In short, we're f**ked.

Edited August 1, 2014 by byron78

[TwoWolves]

You can't just stop though.

Takes 10 years or so to train them properly.

Lot of death and rotten smiles to deal with in that decade until it's fixed.

It's chicken and egg, but the lack of training definitely came well before the huge influx of overseas doctors and dentists.

This isn't a new thing either btw: in 1970 30% of all doctors were trained overseas. It's actually only gone up about a third of a percent per year from that.

No idea about other trades, but I suspect our political classes just sold a lot of careers down the river in the 80s/90s knowing immigration would plug the holes at a lower cost than training/educating the indigenous UK population.

Possibly too late now. Prohibitively expensive to get a decent university education (really do think the sciences, engineering, medical, and other "proper" trades should be subsidised).

Prohibitively expensive (in terms of lost revenue and time spent training) for most employers to bother training up UK proles when they can just employ a load of cheap overseas workers instead.

The thing about private employers instead of state that rarely gets mentioned is that they really couldn't give a monkeys where their employees come from. Most are global corporations. Bottom line, all that matters to them is profit. People and passports really don't mean anything at all in the boardroom.

In short, we're f**ked.

You are presenting a slight distortion. In the '70s many doctors were being poached by the US, meaning we had to import from mostly Europe. We currently have unemployed medical graduates, that's how nuts the system has become.

[byron78]

You are presenting a slight distortion. In the '70s many doctors were being poached by the US, meaning we had to import from mostly Europe. We currently have unemployed medical graduates, that's how nuts the system has become.

We've been importing foreign doctors at an ever increasing steady rate since the 50s/60s really.

The first mass wave of Indian doctors was 60s I think (loads of Afro-Caribbean nurses in the 50s).

Pretty thorough review of it all here for those interested (it's a bit lefty, but makes the very valid point the NHS has been reliant on immigration for 60 odd years. I'd personally say we do need to restrict unskilled labour now in less specialist markets): http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/immigration-and-the-national-health-service-putting-history-to-the-forefron

Edited August 2, 2014 by byron78

[Wayo]

The last thing I would want to see is the Government trying to decide which markets are specialised or not. They are already Soviet in their outlook on energy generation, health and social housing.

If you take the view the budget should roughly balance (unlike recent years) then simply grant work permits only where they are backed by a job paying at least the median / average wage. That way working migrants should be paying in roughly a minimum of what they will take out in public services and benefits. Restricting their access to benefits only means they will take jobs below the minimum wage, driving down pay and living standards for everyone, going 10 to a house to put a roof over their heads. The idea that working migrants earning £6.50/hr, paying almost zero tax and being eligible for first-world public services is benefitting the exchequer, was always a shameless fiction, just as it is for non-migrants.

Next start raising the minimum wage and shrinking the benefits envelope that exists between a minimum living standard and the minimum wage. Things will cost quite a bit more, but we are already paying once through unemployment, once through wage subsidies and a third time for what we are actually buying.