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South Lorne

Migrants Given £5Billion Tax Credits

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..trust this has not been posted so far..

Recent research by MigrationWatch found a migrant with no dependants earning the minimum wage has their net income of around £184 a week boosted to £254 by tax credits and housing benefit.

If the migrant has a partner and two children, the net weekly income rockets from £184 to £543.

State handouts constitute 66 per cent of a total annual income of £28,241.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710158/Exclusive-The-inconvenient-truth-Mr-Cameron-ignored-crackdown-immigrant-benefits-Migrants-handed-5billion-tax-credits.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field

A reader points out:

a diabetic British Soldier starves to death with £3.49 in the bank because he had his job seeker's cut. And I;'ll keep posting this comment until it gets through.

..and of course companies and their shareholders paying minimum wage including those who pay virtually no tax here are the winners....

Edited by South Lorne

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..trust this has not been posted so far..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710158/Exclusive-The-inconvenient-truth-Mr-Cameron-ignored-crackdown-immigrant-benefits-Migrants-handed-5billion-tax-credits.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field

A reader points out:

..and of course companies and their shareholders paying minimum wage including those who pay virtually no tax here are the winners....

If you replace the word 'Migrant' with 'worker' does that affect your feelings towards the poor chap being paid peanuts for actually going to work? I thought that 'migrants' were all supposed to be here cheating lazy locals out of their dole money?

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If you replace the word 'Migrant' with 'worker' does that affect your feelings towards the poor chap being paid peanuts for actually going to work? I thought that 'migrants' were all supposed to be here cheating lazy locals out of their dole money?

If you replace the word money with...tax payers money that's been taken from them despite them needing it themselves to make ends meet...how do you feel about it then?

One mans benefit is another mans hard earned cash.

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The family of 17 is collecting around £55,200 a year in state benefits – on top of the father’s £21,600 wage, giving them a total annual income of £76,800 a year

i wonder how much debt they can get post mmr

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If you replace the word 'Migrant' with 'worker' does that affect your feelings towards the poor chap being paid peanuts for actually going to work? I thought that 'migrants' were all supposed to be here cheating lazy locals out of their dole money?

don't forget this article is designed for daily mail readers

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How many migrants fit the 2 kids, partner, HB, and £180 a week from work category then?

Where the fook does the 5 billion figure come from?

To get to that we're presuming 300000 migrants a year are in the exact circumstances described in the article.

You'd have to be an idiot to believe it.

Edit: just seen it's from the Daily Mail.

Edited by byron78

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If you replace the word money with...tax payers money that's been taken from them despite them needing it themselves to make ends meet...how do you feel about it then?

One mans benefit is another mans hard earned cash.

But what's really happening with all our tax money? It's topping up miserable salaries to keep profit margins high at the UK's top employers - more rentiers in action...

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The family of 17 is collecting around £55,200 a year in state benefits on top of the fathers £21,600 wage, giving them a total annual income of £76,800 a year

i wonder how much debt they can get post mmr

Only 170 families like that in the UK (I mean double figure kids families on benefits, be they Romanian, British, or from wherever).

Collectively they cost us far less than our own dear Royal Family.

Not defending them, just putting it into context.

Edited by byron78

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Only 170 families like that in the UK.

Collectively they cost us far less than our own dear Royal Family.

Not defending them, just putting it into context.

yeh, wasn't having a dig at them

i'll be depending on those 17 kids to be paying for my state pension in a few years

just wondering how much they could borrow

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If you replace the word 'Migrant' with 'worker' does that affect your feelings towards the poor chap being paid peanuts for actually going to work? I thought that 'migrants' were all supposed to be here cheating lazy locals out of their dole money?

Well migrants have far higher birthrates on the whole and it's when children are involved that the figures rocket. The ONS birthrate statistics show for every woman this many children -

Nigeria - 3.32

Ghana - 3.24

Pakistan- 3.82

Bangladesh - 3.25

Romania - 2.93 (highest from EU countries)

Somalia - 4.19

Afghanistan - 4.25

Iraq - 3.91

Sri Lanka - 2.62

India - 2.35

Poland - 2.13

That's a lot of tax credits.

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Well migrants have far higher birthrates on the whole and it's when children are involved that the figures rocket. The ONS birthrate statistics show for every woman this many children -

Nigeria - 3.32

Ghana - 3.24

Pakistan- 3.82

Bangladesh - 3.25

Romania - 2.93 (highest from EU countries)

Somalia - 4.19

Afghanistan - 4.25

Iraq - 3.91

Sri Lanka - 2.62

India - 2.35

Poland - 2.13

That's a lot of tax credits.

So, are you angry that us unhealthy Brits are firing blanks or are just too obese (on average according to the stats) to breed, or do you want to change the tax/benefits system?

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Change it so that tax credits are reduced, particularly for those with more than 2 children. And stop hammering the unemployed while doing nothing with people with children working 16 hours on tax credits who claim far more of the welfare budget and distort wages, housing, and the welfare system.

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Also make it contributory for all before eligible to claim. This should apply to Britons too, as should the 2 child cap as there's plenty with more than 2 children working the bare minimum hours to claim tax credits.

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Change it so that tax credits are reduced, particularly for those with more than 2 children. And stop hammering the unemployed while doing nothing with people with children working 16 hours on tax credits who claim far more of the welfare budget and distort wages, housing, and the welfare system.

So you think people who are neither working nor raising a family should have more money, while those who are busy raising a family and working the 16 hours left available to them should have less money?

Edited by snowflux

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Colleague is on around £55k per year, (heard many here and elsewhere say they can only dream of earning this) he has 4 young kids which his non-working wife is currently home schooling which they believe is best but is also saving the country a fortune. They pay a modest mortgage. He is completely skint and does no think he can afford to run a car much longer. People in this situation are some of the worst off in the country. They do not get tax credits and pay A ton of tax.

Compare to my brother and also partners brother, self employed runs private company, stay at home wife and they are sole share holders. Pay themselves dividends of <£40k per annum each on which they pay 10% tax. Wifey does nothing but raise kids

First case take home pay £3000 PCM second case £6000 pcm

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I don't have a problem with migrants themselves, they are doing what anyone on their position would do. However I have a big problem with working benefits for everyone, as they skew the marketplace and allow employers to pay lower wages than they otherwise could, and/or give those with low incomes higher spending power, driving up prices of many things in this country. Housing benefit in particular in a effect sets a floor price for accommodation.

Tax credits should be phased out, so all employers would be forced to pay a wage that their employees can get by on. If a job is worth doing, then a company can pay enough to someone without them needing tax credits or housing benefit.

It is almost criminal to take money from people in tax to give it to others to give them a higher post tax income than those paying the tax. It also requires an army of bureaucrats who could be fired if the system did not exist. Tax credits were introduced by Gordon Brown and like all these things, once there, people come to rely on them and removing them will be very hard.

Edited by BalancedBear

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Colleague is on around £55k per year, (heard many here and elsewhere say they can only dream of earning this) he has 4 young kids which his non-working wife is currently home schooling which they believe is best but is also saving the country a fortune. They pay a modest mortgage. He is completely skint and does no think he can afford to run a car much longer. People in this situation are some of the worst off in the country. They do not get tax credits and pay A ton of tax.

Compare to my brother and also partners brother, self employed runs private company, stay at home wife and they are sole share holders. Pay themselves dividends of <£40k per annum each on which they pay 10% tax. Wifey does nothing but raise kids

First case take home pay £3000 PCM second case £6000 pcm

This should really be in the David Camo Higher Rate Tax Giveaway thread.

The issue with your colleague, and I do sympathise being a structurally similar but less extreme position, is that there are families out there using the vagaries of part time employment and tax credits to lead a less stressful and far more consumptive lifestyle (and they would argue 'better' too).

hey ho. Something needs to break before things will change though.

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So you think people who are neither working nor raising a family should have more money, while those who are busy raising a family and working the 16 hours left available to them should have less money?

No, I think what he thinks is that maybe, just maybe, immigration should be restricted to migrants that aren't coming here to work the minimum wage in some unskilled job. I know, its vile and a racist attitude.

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No, I think what he thinks is that maybe, just maybe, immigration should be restricted to migrants that aren't coming here to work the minimum wage in some unskilled job. I know, its vile and a racist attitude.

There doesn't seem to be much love for well paid people in the UK - see the other thread about how 40K makes you a filthy aristo - so why would importing 'rich' foreigner be a great plan?

The elephant in the room is that shareholders are getting a bung from tax payers because tax payers are topping up shamefully low wages that IMHO wouldn't attract any takers if the tax credits and HB didn't top them up. Should any UK tax payer really give a damn about the nationality of the low paid workers?

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How many migrants fit the 2 kids, partner, HB, and £180 a week from work category then?

Where the fook does the 5 billion figure come from?

To get to that we're presuming 300000 migrants a year are in the exact circumstances described in the article.

You'd have to be an idiot to believe it.

Edit: just seen it's from the Daily Mail.

In 2000, the last year for which data are available, net inward migration was estimated at just over 183,000 persons. The average net inflow over the three year period 1998-2000 was 180,000 (i) per year, double the average annual levels in 1990-94.

So you reckon twice the number of migrants in one year is unrealistic?

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No, I think what he thinks is that maybe, just maybe, immigration should be restricted to migrants that aren't coming here to work the minimum wage in some unskilled job. I know, its vile and a racist attitude.

I know it's in the topic title, but the post I replied to didn't mention migrants. It was a general observation.

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No, I think what he thinks is that maybe, just maybe, immigration should be restricted to migrants that aren't coming here to work the minimum wage in some unskilled job. I know, its vile and a racist attitude.

I'm with you in that. Mas,s unskilled immigration is something that most are against I would say, yet it is accelerating to bump up GDP at all costs.

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I don't have a problem with migrants themselves, they are doing what anyone on their position would do. However I have a big problem with working benefits for everyone, as they skew the marketplace and allow employers to pay lower wages than they otherwise could, and/or give those with low incomes higher spending power, driving up prices of many things in this country. Housing benefit in particular in a effect sets a floor price for accommodation.

Tax credits should be phased out, so all employers would be forced to pay a wage that their employees can get by on. If a job is worth doing, then a company can pay enough to someone without them needing tax credits or housing benefit.

It is almost criminal to take money from people in tax to give it to others to give them a higher post tax income than those paying the tax. It also requires an army of bureaucrats who could be fired if the system did not exist. Tax credits were introduced by Gordon Brown and like all these things, once there, people come to rely on them and removing them will be very hard.

There's the rub. A job may be worth doing at one rate but not at another. If you take away tax credits, a bunch of people will end up on the dole because it won't make economic sense for a company to pay the higher wage they would require. The resulting higher unemployment rate and economic contraction (due to the higher cost of labour) would, I think, more than negate the saving made by cutting tax credits.

I've actually come round to thinking that tax credits, although badly implemented (a citizen's income would be better), are not a bad thing. In effect, they relieve business of the responsibility for social support, which really isn't the job of business. Granted, they make the economy look rosier than it really is by "artificially" lowering the unemployment rate, but you still end up with people working who would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs.

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There's the rub. A job may be worth doing at one rate but not at another. If you take away tax credits, a bunch of people will end up on the dole because it won't make economic sense for a company to pay the higher wage they would require. The resulting higher unemployment rate and economic contraction (due to the higher cost of labour) would, I think, more than negate the saving made by cutting tax credits.

I've actually come round to thinking that tax credits, although badly implemented (a citizen's income would be better), are not a bad thing. In effect, they relieve business of the responsibility for social support, which really isn't the job of business. Granted, they make the economy look rosier than it really is by "artificially" lowering the unemployment rate, but you still end up with people working who would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs.

I used to think this was the case too, but seeing how things work, I no longer agree. Productivity in the UK is relatively low compared to many countries. Tax credits have become the easy option for many people to work part time but have the income of someone working full time. In many cases companies pay enough to cover higher wages but someone else takes a cut. For example cleaners. A cleaning company takes a big cut and pays cleaners much less, but could pay them more if needed. If a small company had to pay £20 per week more to keep their offices clean, are they really not going to bother cleaning the office? Removal of tax credits would work in two ways, employers would pay a bit more and more pressure would be exerted for things to get cheaper.

I am always amazed just how much people on average incomes are prepared to pay for things, even borrowing to do so. For example the UK has one of highest rates in Europe of new car purchases. A huge proportion of which are on finance. If people were really poor, they would buy an older car. To me this shows there is not enough appreciation of the value of money in the UK.

Edited by BalancedBear

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I used to think this was the case too, but seeing how things work, I no longer agree. Productivity in the UK is relatively low compared to many countries. Tax credits have become the easy option for many people to work part time but have the income of someone working full time. In many cases companies pay enough to cover higher wages but someone else takes a cut. For example cleaners. A cleaning company takes a big cut and pays cleaners much less, but could pay them more if needed. If a small company had to pay £20 per week more to keep their offices clean, are they really not going to bother cleaning the office? Removal of tax credits would work in two ways, employers would pay a bit more and more pressure would be exerted for things to get cheaper.

I am always amazed just how much people on average incomes are prepared to pay for things, even borrowing to do so. For example the UK has one of highest rates in Europe of new car purchases. A huge proportion of which are on finance. If people were really poor, they would buy an older car. To me this shows there is not enough appreciation of the value of money in the UK.

If I might just take issue with your cleaning example:

If a cleaning company takes a big cut and pays its cleaners much less then, in a competitive economy, it will soon be driven out of business by a cleaning company that doesn't take such a big cut and can therefore charge less for its cleaning services, thus lowering the costs of its customers.

If a company had to pay £20 more per week to keep their offices clean, it might simply decide that they don't need cleaning quite so frequently, or they might decide it's not worth the extra cost, and assign internal staff to do it instead. There will be some point at which it is no longer economic for a customer to use the cleaning company's services.

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