More School

[Spot]

And you have to repeat the lesson planning every year? Even if you're teaching the same stuff?

Is it not all very formulaic?

Some stuff can be re-used but when my missus was teaching they seemed to be changing the curriculum every 5 minutes.

She did it for 2 years and I hardly saw her during that time. She'd get home from school and be doing lesson planning and then marking and then it'd be time to go to bed.

I was so happy when she'd had enough and left to go and work in a bank.

Personally, if anything I think kids should have less time in school and longer holidays.

And Michael Gove's an evil little sh1t.

[neon tetra]

Yes, but that was all they did.

Had a couple of younger, first year teachers, who would mark stuff away from the class (one even corrected spelling mistakes!!), but the rest just turned up, opened the text book and went from there. There was definitely nothing planned. Once a week, they set an exercise or some reading in class so they can mark some work. Quick skim, mark out of 10. Simple.

I mostly stared out the window.

This is what I fear goes on far more than it should.

There is a fine balance here: a proper concientious teacher has about half the amount of time they need; a lazy, slapdash one has about 30% more time than they need. And there's no way to square that circle.

The sooner performance related pay comes in the better. Currently, the bright, keen, able teachers are promoted out of the classroom in order to get the recognition and pay they deserve. Leaving the children being taught by the rump of uninspiring mass of "work to live" teachers. They are in the wrong job. Teaching is a vocation.

[winkie]

I had a teacher that always used to ask us to read a passage to ourselves and answer the questions at the end....that was about as much as the conversation the class got from them the whole lesson.....whilst we were doing what was asked of us they were marking the books from a previous class in our boring total waste of time lesson.

[the gardener]

I had a teacher that always used to ask us to read a passage to ourselves and answer the questions at the end....that was about as much as the conversation the class got from them the whole lesson.....whilst we were doing what was asked of us they were marking the books from a previous class in our boring total waste of time lesson.

The teacher did that so that they could have a life when they got home.

[the gardener]

Some stuff can be re-used but when my missus was teaching they seemed to be changing the curriculum every 5 minutes.

She did it for 2 years and I hardly saw her during that time. She'd get home from school and be doing lesson planning and then marking and then it'd be time to go to bed.

I was so happy when she'd had enough and left to go and work in a bank.

Personally, if anything I think kids should have less time in school and longer holidays.

And Michael Gove's an evil little sh1t.

+1

[CynicAl]

Other than their first 'enthusiastic' year, has a teacher ever taken anything home?

Back in my day, all normal making was done during the lesson and the lessons mostly followed the book, so required little or no planning. Teachers always had a couple of free lessons per day.

Exam marking was separate, in the holidays, but they got paid by the boards for that.

I'd go as far as saying, if you could remove having to deal with nasty kids (which happens in some good schools), it must be the easiest job ever

Edit: obviously a uni lecturer is the easiest job in the world.

No offence, but you are completely ignorant of reality. I have married into a family of teachers and get to see what they actually do. My wife is a primary school teacher. She gets to work at 8 and leaves at 6.30. She does lessons planning usually 3 evenings a week. In addition, she'll be researching and creating teaching materials. Half-term holidays are usually filled with report writing. Half of Summer holidays is taken up with planning for the next academic year. If there is a school trip to be planned, she does that at weekends as they involve a visit to the destination to do risk assessments and plan the day. She works probably 15 hours more a week than I do, and I am a manager in a busy manufacturing company. She does get a great pension though, but her pay hasn't gone up in 3 years, even with extra responsibilities given to her, because there is no budget in the school. And she has to deal with parents who think that their little angel can do no wrong and expects the teachers to provide any duscipline. And she has to do 'voluntary' after school clubs too.

[CynicAl]

+1

+1

They keep changing the topics around which even the core stuff is taught, which means replanning an entirely good lesson. We wouldn't do that in industry, if you get something right, keep it! Not the DofE, they change it round every couple of years so that they are seen to be doing something.

[57percent]

No offence, but you are completely ignorant of reality. I have married into a family of teachers and get to see what they actually do. My wife is a primary school teacher. She gets to work at 8 and leaves at 6.30. She does lessons planning usually 3 evenings a week. In addition, she'll be researching and creating teaching materials. Half-term holidays are usually filled with report writing. Half of Summer holidays is taken up with planning for the next academic year. If there is a school trip to be planned, she does that at weekends as they involve a visit to the destination to do risk assessments and plan the day. She works probably 15 hours more a week than I do, and I am a manager in a busy manufacturing company. She does get a great pension though, but her pay hasn't gone up in 3 years, even with extra responsibilities given to her, because there is no budget in the school. And she has to deal with parents who think that their little angel can do no wrong and expects the teachers to provide any duscipline. And she has to do 'voluntary' after school clubs too.

You're right, I am ignorant from teaching side.

But, are you seriously telling me that primary school lessons need 3 hours at school everyday and 3 evenings a week and half the summer holidays to plan? Sorry, I just don't believe that.

And even if this is true, surely there's huge room for improving efficiency? Maybe one teacher does it and gives it to all the others?

And it takes the whole of half term to write reports? Say 40 hours? 40 students? An hour a report?

I'd probably agree on the last part. I'd imagine the discipline side wastes most of their time, but it's strange that's rarely mentioned by teachers ... it's always the lesson planning!

[tomandlu]

And even if this is true, surely there's huge room for improving efficiency?

Oh, I'm sure there is. So, keep changing the curriculum and topics and teaching methods on a regular basis, and keep wondering why things don't get any more efficient...

[DabHand]

Spot on...in North Korea.

There must be a pedo reference you can weakly shoe horn in as well.

What's wrong with collaboration and consistency? I'm sure you like a good bleat about the postcode lottery for public services, so what's not to like? Would give you a smiley but can't find me colon!

[Guest eight]

How about the same for MPs. Can't see them being happy either. People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones

There's a place near Leeds called Glasshouses. Wonder what the kids there do for entertainment?

[DabHand]

No offence, but you are completely ignorant of reality. I have married into a family of teachers and get to see what they actually do. My wife is a primary school teacher. She gets to work at 8 and leaves at 6.30. She does lessons planning usually 3 evenings a week. In addition, she'll be researching and creating teaching materials. Half-term holidays are usually filled with report writing. Half of Summer holidays is taken up with planning for the next academic year. If there is a school trip to be planned, she does that at weekends as they involve a visit to the destination to do risk assessments and plan the day. She works probably 15 hours more a week than I do, and I am a manager in a busy manufacturing company. She does get a great pension though, but her pay hasn't gone up in 3 years, even with extra responsibilities given to her, because there is no budget in the school. And she has to deal with parents who think that their little angel can do no wrong and expects the teachers to provide any duscipline. And she has to do 'voluntary' after school clubs too.

Just quoted to say that this is exactly what l have seen. I am sure that school management which at primary school seems to comprise a barmy old maid from yesteryear as head teacher, is partly to blame, but l wonder if a differently minded individual would manage this situation better than what appears to be make work as nothing is ever re-used.

[SarahBell]

Do any of the teacher type people/OHs have any lesson plans they could share with the class?

[This Username Is Taken]

You're right, I am ignorant from teaching side.

But, are you seriously telling me that primary school lessons need 3 hours at school everyday and 3 evenings a week and half the summer holidays to plan? Sorry, I just don't believe that.

And even if this is true, surely there's huge room for improving efficiency? Maybe one teacher does it and gives it to all the others?

And it takes the whole of half term to write reports? Say 40 hours? 40 students? An hour a report?

I'd probably agree on the last part. I'd imagine the discipline side wastes most of their time, but it's strange that's rarely mentioned by teachers ... it's always the lesson planning!

I used to work full time as a senior teacher in primary school. I don't anymore.

Lesson planning is becoming more and more detailed and specific to individual children. I used to have to name individual children in my lesson plans and indicate how I would target them individually with individually tailored prompts and questions. I'd have to indicate how I was addressing the needs of individual children, by name, both in terms of their specific needs and needs identified from assessment of them in the previous lesson. I have rarely taught classes of less than 35 children. One teacher cannot plan for the others, every child is different, every class is different. Year group team planning does take place, but even then lessons have to be adapted right down to the individual child. As a primary teacher, I had no "free lessons" for planning and preparation for a long time, then that changed 2005/6 ish (can't remember exactly) and I had a half day a week. I have worked under one head teacher (at the beginning of my career) who worked to drive down the paperwork and bureaucracy for us, bless him, but it was a losing battle. Every other head since then has required a form to be filled in for everything, you know, in case OFSTED ask.

Writing considered reports took me over an hour a report, in all the primary schools I have worked in, their report formats have been 3 or 4 typewritten A4 pages. Writing reports always took up a half-term. The only difference to a normal school week being that I got to have the evenings off.

Marking was a nightmare, I always kept my marking up-to-date. I would teach 5 lessons a day, if just 3 of those lessons resulted in marking, say maths, English and 1 other, then I would have at least 120 books to mark a day. If I just spent a minute per book, that's 2 hours. A minute isn't enough to read, mark and assess a child's work in a way that they deserve.

Discipline can waste a lot of time, and teachers often speak out about poor pupil behaviour. A culture has developed whereby poor pupil behaviour is seen to be the sole fault of the teacher, this is how OFSTED considers it. Teachers can be reluctant to seek help in managing pupil behaviour from senior teachers because it is increasingly viewed as them being incapable teachers.

Meetings. Lots of meetings. Morning meetings (before the kids arrived), lunch time meetings and after school meetings. Sometimes, meetings at 7pm.

I have never complained about my pay. Except for one thing, I became a senior teacher quite quickly and found my pay to be significantly less than teachers with less seniority who had been teachers for 20 years. My working conditions were a different matter, that is what needs improving. I gave up full-time teaching after a revelation one Sunday lunchtime. My wife was at work (she worked P/T at the weekends) and I was at home doing school work at the computer, my very young daughter was sat on the living room floor, as good as gold, being babysat by videos. I realised that I was neglecting my own daughter to plan for other people's. I resigned at the end of that year.

I've worked mainly as a supply teacher since then, I'd like to leave teaching completely and work in the private sector, but the private sector thinks that we teachers can't do.

Taylor Mali on What Teachers Make:

[Guest eight]

I used to work full time as a senior teacher in primary school. I don't anymore.

Lesson planning is becoming more and more detailed and specific to individual children. I used to have to name individual children in my lesson plans and indicate how I would target them individually with individually tailored prompts and questions. I'd have to indicate how I was addressing the needs of individual children, by name, both in terms of their specific needs and needs identified from assessment of them in the previous lesson. I have rarely taught classes of less than 35 children. One teacher cannot plan for the others, every child is different, every class is different. Year group team planning does take place, but even then lessons have to be adapted right down to the individual child. As a primary teacher, I had no "free lessons" for planning and preparation for a long time, then that changed 2005/6 ish (can't remember exactly) and I had a half day a week. I have worked under one head teacher (at the beginning of my career) who worked to drive down the paperwork and bureaucracy for us, bless him, but it was a losing battle. Every other head since then has required a form to be filled in for everything, you know, in case OFSTED ask.

Writing considered reports took me over an hour a report, in all the primary schools I have worked in, their report formats have been 3 or 4 typewritten A4 pages. Writing reports always took up a half-term. The only difference to a normal school week being that I got to have the evenings off.

Marking was a nightmare, I always kept my marking up-to-date. I would teach 5 lessons a day, if just 3 of those lessons resulted in marking, say maths, English and 1 other, then I would have at least 120 books to mark a day. If I just spent a minute per book, that's 2 hours. A minute isn't enough to read, mark and assess a child's work in a way that they deserve.

Discipline can waste a lot of time, and teachers often speak out about poor pupil behaviour. A culture has developed whereby poor pupil behaviour is seen to be the sole fault of the teacher, this is how OFSTED considers it. Teachers can be reluctant to seek help in managing pupil behaviour from senior teachers because it is increasingly viewed as them being incapable teachers.

Meetings. Lots of meetings. Morning meetings (before the kids arrived), lunch time meetings and after school meetings. Sometimes, meetings at 7pm.

I have never complained about my pay. Except for one thing, I became a senior teacher quite quickly and found my pay to be significantly less than teachers with less seniority who had been teachers for 20 years. My working conditions were a different matter, that is what needs improving. I gave up full-time teaching after a revelation one Sunday lunchtime. My wife was at work (she worked P/T at the weekends) and I was at home doing school work at the computer, my very young daughter was sat on the living room floor, as good as gold, being babysat by videos. I realised that I was neglecting my own daughter to plan for other people's. I resigned at the end of that year.

I've worked mainly as a supply teacher since then, I'd like to leave teaching completely and work in the private sector, but the private sector thinks that we teachers can't do.

Taylor Mali on What Teachers Make:

I'm not saying any of that is wrong, but then how to square it with the reports that half the kids leave unable to read or write? There's a rabbit off somewhere.

[This Username Is Taken]

I'm not saying any of that is wrong, but then how to square it with the reports that half the kids leave unable to read or write? There's a rabbit off somewhere.

Do you meet many people who literally can't read or write? What the data tends to show is that some children are average, some above and some below. Not everyone excels at school, even the chief inspector of OFSTED doesn't understand averages. He complained that 20% of primary school children don't achieve the national average in English. Gove thinks all schools should be at least "good" and that "good" means that pupil performance exceeds the national average.

When children work hard and achieve, their achievements are taken away. My daughter (older now, doing GCSEs) works damn hard and gets top grades only to be told that it must be because the exams are easier.

[dinker]

Get some Korean teachers in:

[houses-do-my-head-in]

Other than their first 'enthusiastic' year, has a teacher ever taken anything home?

Back in my day, all normal making was done during the lesson and the lessons mostly followed the book, so required little or no planning. Teachers always had a couple of free lessons per day.

Exam marking was separate, in the holidays, but they got paid by the boards for that.

I'd go as far as saying, if you could remove having to deal with nasty kids (which happens in some good schools), it must be the easiest job ever

Edit: obviously a uni lecturer is the easiest job in the world.

for every 1 hour contact with kids i spend 2 hours doing other stuff. planning, photocopying, marking, filling in stupid spreadsheets with assessment data, allocating your dimmocks some stupid intervention strategy, as its always the teachers fault dimmock cant be bothered to even underline the date and title, nevermind draw a spider diagram. checking planners, logging negative events, logging merits, doing classroom displays, break duty, lunch duty, faculty meetings.

easter break i had a week of rest and relaxation followed by a week of mindnumbing marking. i wouldnt mark exam papers for 7quid each as I am up at 6 and shut the laptop at 11pm some days.

actually there are very few kids who are nasty. they are very perceptive and know if their teacher can be bothered to plan good lessons, and are bothered in their progress. they are not nasty but many are bone idle. they know the gubbermint will look after em if they cant get a Just Over Broke J-O-B

i would be more than happy to work longer and have fewer holidays...just dont expect me to plan good lessons and mark their work as there is simply not enough hours in the day. ive often said there should be many curriculums and lessons to choose form with all resources that you can choose at will from. planning is the killer. 2 to 4hours for an awesome lesson. 1 hour and under for a bodgit and pray lesson

edit i know my SPag is terrible but i blame my teacher

Edited April 19, 2013 by houses-do-my-head-in

[houses-do-my-head-in]

I'm not saying any of that is wrong, but then how to square it with the reports that half the kids leave unable to read or write? There's a rabbit off somewhere.

easy to explain. its all about attitude and effort. lock a kid in a room 18 hours a day 7 days a week form 5 years old and drill them if you like. if they DO NOT WANT to learn then they wont. it really is that simple. this is where parents need to do their bit.

ive always said i would rather teach a thick trier than a brainy lazy un. if you can instill anything in kids it would be "to try your best". my dedicated set 3 students outperform many of my lazy top set...but the spreadsheet knows everything apparently

Edited April 19, 2013 by houses-do-my-head-in

[Guest eight]

Do you meet many people who literally can't read or write?

No. All the recent students I meet are very impressive individuals - much smarter in lots of ways than I think I was at their age, and I was one of the smart ones. That's why I find it hard to square the genuine experiences of teachers with the doom and gloom often heard in the media.

It also makes our national attitude towards our youth even more painful.

[winkie]

No. All the recent students I meet are very impressive individuals - much smarter in lots of ways than I think I was at their age, and I was one of the smart ones. That's why I find it hard to square the genuine experiences of teachers with the doom and gloom often heard in the media.

It also makes our national attitude towards our youth even more painful.

....it only takes a few to let the rest down....if a teacher is moaning about planning and marking, maybe they are in the wrong job or school.......disruptive pupils that take valuable teachers time and attention should have separate lessons with teachers with specialised training......why should pupils who want to learn be let down by both poor teachers/ing and attention seeking, time wasting pupils.

Edited April 19, 2013 by winkie

[SarahBell]

Lesson planning is becoming more and more detailed and specific to individual children. I used to have to name individual children in my lesson plans and indicate how I would target them individually with individually tailored prompts and questions. I'd have to indicate how I was addressing the needs of individual children, by name, both in terms of their specific needs and needs identified from assessment of them in the previous lesson.

No wonder children are increasingly messed up.

A class is a class is a class.

Band them at secondary school for key subjects.

But primary, they are all little chicken nuggets. Different shapes but all the same. There are some that dribble a bit more than others, but basically they're the same.

And if speaking english causes problems which it does in a friend's school, then kids shouldn't progress past the first class until they have mastered a set level.

And no child should leave primary school until they can read, write and speak in english.

Pandering to the idea that kids need such a level of planning is insane.

A teacher knows which kids pay attention, which kids don't understand stuff the first time and which kids are bored senseless listening to the snotfaced chicken nuggets getting told again and again.

That teacher knows what to say to include various kids. Why on earth does it need to be written down - and CTRL C and CTRL V are incredibly useful.

[MrPin]

I think Mr Gove should leave teaching to teachers! It's nice to get out of school at 16:00, and still have time to do stuff! It's nice to have six weeks off in the Summer to get out and do stuff! It's probably nice for teachers too!

[CynicAl]

No wonder children are increasingly messed up.

A class is a class is a class.

Band them at secondary school for key subjects.

But primary, they are all little chicken nuggets. Different shapes but all the same. There are some that dribble a bit more than others, but basically they're the same.

And if speaking english causes problems which it does in a friend's school, then kids shouldn't progress past the first class until they have mastered a set level.

And no child should leave primary school until they can read, write and speak in english.

Pandering to the idea that kids need such a level of planning is insane.

A teacher knows which kids pay attention, which kids don't understand stuff the first time and which kids are bored senseless listening to the snotfaced chicken nuggets getting told again and again.

That teacher knows what to say to include various kids. Why on earth does it need to be written down - and CTRL C and CTRL V are incredibly useful.

You must be having a laugh! 'basically they're the same'? You have no idea about child development. Go and read some psychology and pedagogy books on the subject. The difference in the ability of kids at school is greater the younger they are. A kid who is 5 years and 1 day old can be in the same class as one who is exactly 6 years old. The difference in ability, and thus what and how you teach them is vast. If a school followed your advice, the Department of Education would have it put in special measures.

[Ah-so]

No wonder children are increasingly messed up.

A class is a class is a class.

Band them at secondary school for key subjects.

But primary, they are all little chicken nuggets. Different shapes but all the same. There are some that dribble a bit more than others, but basically they're the same.

Based on what evidence? They are all vastly different and the differences become more and more apparent as children's time at school develops - by the ages of 10 or 11 there may be several years difference in reading ages and mathematical ability. Very difficult for a teacher to manage.