Death Penalty

[Frank Hovis]

Maybe, a lot of people make the macho instant claim that they'd have no problem killing someone.

While that's clearly true in self-defence, in the heat of the moment defending loved ones and under some situations of coercion or training, would they be able to pull the trigger/push the button when face to face with another human being in a calm situation of execution after a conviction?

The evidence suggests either not at all, or at least not without suffering psychological damage themselves. If they were, without any bother, it would suggest sociopathy.

I understand that many relatives who, after only witnessing executions of the murderers of their loved ones, actually change their minds about the death penalty.

This (in many cases) delusional belief of one's own (and others') ability to kill I think can lead to problems in judging human nature.

I don't think you need to invoke sociopathy. Do a poll on how many people would kill Ian Brady, Levi Bellfield or the killers of Charlene Downes. Most people would say yes in a heartbeat.

Less emotive killings probably not, but personally I'm not arguing for a standard death penalty for murder. I've read that murderers are regarded as unusual in prison as generally they're not career criminals, just normal law-abiding people who through circumstance have carried out one terrible act. I don't see the death penalty as a deterrent to that sort of person and equally don't see it as an appropriate punishment.

[shipbuilder]

I don't think you need to invoke sociopathy. Do a poll on how many people would kill Ian Brady, Levi Bellfield or the killers of Charlene Downes. Most people would say yes in a heartbeat.

I don't doubt that most would say yes, my point is could they actually go through with it, face to face with them? I believe evidence suggests that only sociopaths could without any hesitation or after effects on their mental health.

I guess my point is that it's easy to say yes to a third party killing someone you will never meet, having been presented with a media report of what they have done. The reality I believe would be somewhat different.

If the, say, parent of a murdered child was happy to carry out the execution of their child's killer, it could be argued that it might be the most justifiable way of carrying it out. However I don't believe even this would serve in any way the purpose that is intended, whether that be prevention, justice or whatever, neither for society nor the parent concerned.

[SHERWICK]

I don't think you need to invoke sociopathy. Do a poll on how many people would kill Ian Brady, Levi Bellfield or the killers of Charlene Downes. Most people would say yes in a heartbeat.

No one has been convicted of the killing of Charlene Downes, but Ian Brady and Levi Bellfield are convicted murderers.

So wat exactly are you trying to say?

[snowflux]

I'm no Injun, but I'm not convinced that giving the state express permission to kill its own citizens is necessarily a good idea. Regardless of what they may (or may not) have done.

[Frank Hovis]

No one has been convicted of the killing of Charlene Downes, but Ian Brady and Levi Bellfield are convicted murderers.

So wat exactly are you trying to say?

Thought they had been, I was thinking of examples of horrific crimes.

[Guest eight]

Thought they had been, I was thinking of examples of horrific crimes.

The worst crime I have heard of in recent times is the murder of Mary Ann Leneghan, although it's not particularly notorious considering the details. I still couldn't condone putting those responsible to death though. In fact I would go further and say that indeterminate sentences and locking people up for the rest of their natural are no good either. People will only seek redemption if it's actually achievable. See Ian Brady - OK, so all his gyroscopes weren't spinning upright in the first place, but look at the effect that captivity has had on him. If there had been even a theoretical chance that one day he would re-enter society his mental health may have been better and Winnie Johnson may have got the closure she sought. Even the most sadistic man at twenty must be an entirely different being by the time they reach seventy.

[SHERWICK]

Thought they had been, I was thinking of examples of horrific crimes.

True.

[OnionTerror]

Hillsborough once again tells us with hindsight that what we thought at one point has now been revealed to have been a fraud and a sham.

...or the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6...

[The Masked Tulip]

I don't believe in the death penalty for a variety of reasons but there needs to be something between the death penalty and the holiday camps that pass for our prisons.

In the US they have a few Federal maximum security prisons - Supermax Prisons - where prisoners convicted of the most horrendous crimes are basically locked in a small concrete cell with a concrete bed, concrete sink, concrete toilet and concrete shower, with a small slit window, and they are punished for the awful crimes they have committed.

They have to earn the right to things.

If you read the below link you will see links to ones in the US and ones in the UK - go and have a read of the US ones and see how tough they are with prisoners locked up for 23 hours a day. Then go and read the UK ones about gyms, educational classes, workshops, etc.

I believe that all prisoners, even the most horrendous ones, deserve the right to be rehabilitated BUT they should have to earn such rights by their behaviour, showing remorse, etc, over a long period of time. They should not, as is the case in the UK, be able to commit the most savage of crimes one day and, once sentenced, be popping down the prison gym before they go to the evening workshop class !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax_Prison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Prison_facility

United States Penitentiary, Florence ADX

ADX Florence is a 37-acre (15 ha), 490-bed complex at 5880 Highway 67, Florence, Colorado, about 100 miles (160 km) south of Denver.[10] It is one part of the Florence Federal Correctional Complex (FFCC), which comprises three correctional facilities, each with a different security rating.[11]

The majority of the facility is above ground. The only part that is underground is a subterranean corridor that links cellblocks to the lobby. Each cell has a desk, a stool, and a bed, which are almost entirely made out of poured concrete, as well as a toilet that shuts off if blocked, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink lacking a potentially dangerous trap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, and a black and white television that shows recreational, educational, and religious programming.[12]

The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (120 cm) windows are designed to prevent inmates from knowing their specific location within the complex because they can see only the sky and roof through them, making it virtually impossible to plan an escape. Inmates exercise in a concrete pit resembling an empty swimming pool, also designed to prevent them from knowing their location in the facility.[13] Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correction officers. The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, and 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors. Pressure pads and twelve-foot-tall (3.7 m) razor wire fences surround the perimeter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmarsh_%28HM_Prison%29

HM Prison Belmarsh

Belmarsh is a Category A Prison holding prisoners from all over the United Kingdom. In addition Belmarsh is a local prison, accepting different categories of prisoners from primarily the Central Criminal Court and magistrates Courts in South East London. In addition the establishment serves Crown and Magistrates Courts in South West Essex. Accommodation at the prison is a mixture of approximately 60% multi occupancy cells and 40% single cells, distributed mainly across 4 residential units.

Inmates at Belmarsh are offered access to education, workshops, and 2 gyms (one focusing on Physical Education courses and one for recreational gym), with use of a sports hall and a weights room. The gym staff also have a partnership with Charlton Athletic F.C. to deliver F.A. accredited coaching courses for prisoners.

[shipbuilder]

I don't believe in the death penalty for a variety of reasons but there needs to be something between the death penalty and the holiday camps that pass for our prisons.

In the US they have a few Federal maximum security prisons - Supermax Prisons - where prisoners convicted of the most horrendous crimes are basically locked in a small concrete cell with a concrete bed, concrete sink, concrete toilet and concrete shower, with a small slit window, and they are punished for the awful crimes they have committed.

They have to earn the right to things.

If you read the below link you will see links to ones in the US and ones in the UK - go and have a read of the US ones and see how tough they are with prisoners locked up for 23 hours a day. Then go and read the UK ones about gyms, educational classes, workshops, etc.

I believe that all prisoners, even the most horrendous ones, deserve the right to be rehabilitated BUT they should have to earn such rights by their behaviour, showing remorse, etc, over a long period of time. They should not, as is the case in the UK, be able to commit the most savage of crimes one day and, once sentenced, be popping down the prison gym before they go to the evening workshop class !

But what if it works? I'm guessing you wouldn't agree with this, on the face of it -

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=163485

But what of the results with respect to cost and reoffending?

Arguments seem to be divided between the practical - what works and how much are we prepared to pay - and the emotional - the desire for revenge and punishment. While the emotional reaction is obviously natural for victims or their relatives, I would say it is dangerous for society in general to go down this route.

[dangermaus]

But what if it works? I'm guessing you wouldn't agree with this, on the face of it -

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=163485

But what of the results with respect to cost and reoffending?

I said earlier in the thread education should be paramount in prison, and it's not.

teach people to be a productive member of society and there's no reason for them to keep offending, we don't do that here.

for the people who no one wants rehabilitated, sick sexual killers and the like, i'm all for supermax prisons. let them rot.

[Bossybabe]

I think I did a poll about this a while ago...

I've always said no...If you want to become an advanced, civilised society, then you should not be able to "legally" kill its citizen's, no matter what crime they've committed...Yes - lock them up for the rest of their life, but no to killing them...

If what we are now is an advanced, civilised society, bring back the death penalty.

[Bossybabe]

You can protect citizens by properly locking them up...Once you start killing people (an eye for an eye, revenge, whatever you want to call it), you start to become no better than the criminals themselves - society wants to rise above this. Put the most evil in solitary confinement if need be - no TV, no access to outside world, no "creature comforts".

Can society afford prisons with single cells? I think the death penalty is a mercy when compared to a long prison sentence. Do you have any idea of how hopeless life is when you're locked up and seeing your sentence getting longer? Have you a clue how many prisoners are suicidal and how many can't cope when they are released? How prisoners are at the mercy of sadistic prison officers whose little pleasure is denying prisoners education, privileges, etc for the smallest infraction?

[Goat]

I don't need to be but everyone involved, including the father, is.

Are you the father? Assuming that you are not how can you be sure how certain he is?

There is a remote possibility that he is in on the conspiracy, it's a million to one shot but it's not zero.

There is no such thing at 100% certainty.

[blobloblob]

Those of you in favour of the death penalty, would you want to see the death penalty used for someone who, say, sexually assaulted and killed an 11 year old girl?

[Goat]

Those of you in favour of the death penalty, would you want to see the death penalty used for someone who, say, sexually assaulted and killed an 11 year old girl?

Stefan Kiszko?

[blobloblob]

Stefan Kiszko?

Exactly.

[OnionTerror]

Can society afford prisons with single cells? I think the death penalty is a mercy when compared to a long prison sentence. Do you have any idea of how hopeless life is when you're locked up and seeing your sentence getting longer? Have you a clue how many prisoners are suicidal and how many can't cope when they are released? How prisoners are at the mercy of sadistic prison officers whose little pleasure is denying prisoners education, privileges, etc for the smallest infraction?

For truly heinous criminals who show zero remorse (I take these are the types of people we are talking about in this thread), I have no massive problem with them being locked up indefinitely...make them think about their crimes in prison..

[Bossybabe]

For truly heinous criminals who show zero remorse (I take these are the types of people we are talking about in this thread), I have no massive problem with them being locked up indefinitely...make them think about their crimes in prison..

I'd rather pay an executioner than pay for these crims to languish. I don't think many actually reflect on their crimes.