Pole Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Such as the army on the streets? Curfews on rough estates? Extended detention without arrest? Benefits removed? Corporal punishment? More people locked up? If you think starting an arms race will solve the problem, I think you will be sorely mistaken. We will just end up with a fascist police state, along with equally escalating violence. Sadly, I think your view is that of the majority though and democracy will fail us once again. Values and principals should be more important than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Sutton Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Ali G the voice of the disaffected yoot sums the problems they face brilliantly. In da ghettos of Berkshire, right, de yoot ain't got nowhere to put der energy, 'cos like apart from yoot clubs, cinemas, theatres, sport centres, amusement arcades, football, school clubs, go-karting, dry-slope skiing, ice-skating, fishing, skate-boarding, Legoland, sea cadets, scouts, roller-discos, music workshops, oh yeah and swimming,… there ain't nothin' for kids to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 They don't. What you hear about are the 0.01% of peopel who make it through. Nonsense. I went to a primary school with a number of rough children at it. Numerous are now doing very well for themselves. I assume you don't have the same contact with the 'underclass' that I do and are just talking theoretically... Over time, no. So every posh area weeds out the child abuse and broken families and that is it... You simply don't get it. This isn't about opportunities not being there (though you are also wrong about that in a hierarchical statist system) this is about actually having the brain functioning to operate beyond a very basic level. Really ? Well these kids seemed to have enough brain functioning to run rings around thousands of trained police including helicopters, cars and motorbikes. Didn't they.. They also seem to have worked out quite well exactly when they could head into places and loot them, and exactly when public opinion had changed enough to make this become too dangerous - and so they suddenly stop. They also seem to know exactly what reasons to give for this trouble when asked by a news cameraman. Their brains seem to be functioning pretty well to me. Posh families don't have the same social pressures. They have money. You are so wrong with that IMO. You do realise social pressures also come with being posh and having money ? So yes whilst these social pressures may be different to those on council estate - they still exist. Why do you think numerous wich people with families end themselves on a regular basis ? Just for a laugh ? As for the rest, it's difficult to know where to start. Take a look at what industry was around 30-40 years ago and then take a look around now. This is a product of democracy and its legislation. Therefore, the people who have been displaced are the resultant. Massive inequality, with the rich getting bailed out by the government, while the poor get pushed further and further into a corner. It's no surprise these riots happened. No surprise at all. Meanwhile, people fail to see the looting done by the rich above (100s of billions), while the media and middle classes keep looking below (200 million of looting). It's rather sad, really. No - I understand all the above. I think everyone does. However I simply take issue with so many people telling me so much shit that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs out there for these people. It is wrong. 100%. End of story. There is no debate. I never once went to a youth club as a kid, we made our own entertainment and on the whole kept out of trouble. All the excuses are of course total ********, obviously some people have it tough and maybe the ultimate result is what we have seen. The worst one was a guy in Croydon confronting an Politician (can't remember which one), basically complaining about high taxes and not being able to afford to eat, he had a mobile phone in his hand and was wearing designer clothes. To be really honest I couldn't give a toss about these people, the perception is that they live the life of Riley, but give me a job, my own money and the freedom it gives me over the sort of life they are destined to have. They might be laughing and joking about it now but give it 10-15 years and they will seriously be regretting the way they acted in their youth, some of them of course will change. It's up to them to decide their future, by acting the way they have and having the attitudes they displayed it's not going to be a bed or roses. If they want to live in a dog eat dog world they better be ready to be the top of the tree otherwise it's going to be one hell of a shit life. For me the scale and amount of damage caused was contrasted by how quickly the opposite element showed it's face (even if in some places it was rather ugly). The looters seem to think they are immune, which is fine but I think they will find acting that way works both ways. The Police failed massively in my opinion and it caught people on the hop, they won't be so slow to defend their property next time. Yep. They have it easy and just do not appreciate it. I too have it easy but I appreciate it every second of my life. That is how I differ from these wasters. And I am quite proud to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 [/qoute] The world in which I live tells me otherwise. You can buy kids respect - easy. They are being brainwashed that money is the only thing that counts in this world. Ask them as a parent to swap their Nike shoes for something for Primark trainers - and you'll see how much respect they'll have for you. That's not respect - it's bribery to hide the lack of respect. Even you struggle to come up with an argument without reffering to such vague terms as 'wrong', 'abhorent', etc. Define logically good parenting. Define parental love and care. List down all the skills I need to learn (?) to be a good parent. Can I be a good parent if one of those skill is missing? Can I be a good parent if two of those skills are missing? List down all the situations in which a good parent should raise their voice. Give me logical reasons for not losing my temper as a parent. Etc.Etc. No need. Give me a logical reason why anyone is automatically owed respect. Because if that's not the case, it has to be earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Peter Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Such as the army on the streets? Curfews on rough estates? Extended detention without arrest? Benefits removed? Corporal punishment? More people locked up? If you think starting an arms race will solve the problem, I think you will be sorely mistaken. We will just end up with a fascist police state, along with equally escalating violence. Sadly, I think your view is that of the majority though and democracy will fail us once again. Indeed. Isn't this what we're objecting to in Libya and Syria? Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesnor Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 No - I understand all the above. I think everyone does. However I simply take issue with so many people telling me so much shit that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs out there for these people. It is wrong. 100%. End of story. There is no debate. Are there oppurtunities and jobs for all of them? 50%, 20%, 10%? Please explain what happens to the rest? Yep. They have it easy and just do not appreciate it. I too have it easy but I appreciate it every second of my life. That is how I differ from these wasters. And I am quite proud to do so. A prisoner, kept warm, dry and fed well by his captors has it easy. Don't expect him to appreciate it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Nonsense. I went to a primary school with a number of rough children at it. Numerous are now doing very well for themselves. I assume you don't have the same contact with the 'underclass' that I do and are just talking theoretically... No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. So every posh area weeds out the child abuse and broken families and that is it... No, child abuse victims don't function very well and over time can't maintain the cash needed to be in posh areas. pretty simple. Really ? Well these kids seemed to have enough brain functioning to run rings around thousands of trained police including helicopters, cars and motorbikes. Didn't they.. They also seem to have worked out quite well exactly when they could head into places and loot them, and exactly when public opinion had changed enough to make this become too dangerous - and so they suddenly stop. They also seem to know exactly what reasons to give for this trouble when asked by a news cameraman. Their brains seem to be functioning pretty well to me. You've done well watching an hour long video in such a short space of time. What's needed for all the "get a job, work hard yadda yadda" strategies to work is the ability to delay gratification - and it's that ability to delay gratification which is the first things abuse destroys. They can plan in the moment, react to circcumstances, but imagining themselves in 10 years time and then build towards it isn't on the menu. No - I understand all the above. I think everyone does. However I simply take issue with so many people telling me so much shit that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs out there for these people. It is wrong. 100%. End of story. There is no debate. Wrong. We live in a chartalists, centrally controlled command economy - anyone with money displaces someone else who then can't have it. It's he same with savings - everyone with savings has someone else in their debt. Stop extrapolating personal circumstance and look at actual facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_w_ Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) It's an interesting read, but I can't help but feel that many points have been missed. I agree, but it stays away from the insta-analysis of bad-people/scum or poor-people-need-more-help. The digging brings up interesting things but I think it will be a while before all the factors that led to this have been identified. Additionally, due to the isolated perspective, the author looks at just to the politicians and their left/right ideologies, thus blaming Thatcher. IMO, this is short sighted - both parties have done many things wrong. Labour are far from blameless too, refusing to confront the problem and instead papering over it with credit and benefits. Blair and Labour are clearly identified but Thatcher's 'there's no such thing as society' really comes out as the seminal ideological statement. This declaration of war on civic values will always be linked to her. IMO, people need to look past the left/right dogma, attempt to consider the global economic imbalances, then take a look at what has gone wrong over the previous decades. If we then reflect on what bad decisions our democracy has lead to, we may then be able to reach some appropriate conclusions about what can be done to prevent it happening again. I agree, and a lot of the factors that are seen to be responsible such as globalisation, inequalities, destruction of family values, political correctness etc. come from the UN and are adopted by all political parties (whatever they may say in public). Even the public-private partnerships are UN initiatives! Edited August 12, 2011 by _w_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Are there oppurtunities and jobs for all of them? 50%, 20%, 10%? Please explain what happens to the rest? Spot on question. Lets say every member of society had the brains of einstein and the work ethic of hercules. Completely equal abilities accross the board. There'd still be an underclass because that's how this ******ing financial and economic system is designed to be. Theres one CEO of a company. 1 PM. 1 headmaster in a school. Etc etc And currently, they get shovelled all the rewards while also saying at the same time "anyone can do what I did." Anyone, yes. Everyone? No. So it isn't a solution to the problem faced by everyone to point at an individual who has benefical circumstances any more than it's a solution to the social problems of the poor to say "win the lottery." A prisoner, kept warm, dry and fed well by his captors has it easy. Don't expect him to appreciate it though. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Sutton Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. You just summed up 99% of his posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_w_ Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 To be really honest I couldn't give a toss about these people Very representative of the majority's mindset. But then you shouldn't complain if they don't give a toss about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. Pray tell, where are these 'actual statistics' that show that only 0.01% of people make it through? (Or are you, as usual, cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance'?). Edited August 12, 2011 by SHERWICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_w_ Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Values and principals should be more important than anything. They are, but look at the posts on here that are harsh towards those kids. They don't want values, they want protection. You'll find it hard to find values in any section of UK's society today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Pray tell, where are these 'actual statistics' that show that only 0.01% of people make it through? (Or are you, as usual, cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance'?). Meh, the 0.01% was hyperbole, watch th video for the actual stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Meh, the 0.01% was hyperbole, watch th video for the actual stats. But your reply on 'actual statistics' was to his reponse to your 0.01% "statistic" Injin, on 12 August 2011 - 11:03 AM, said: They don't. What you hear about are the 0.01% of peopel who make it through. ccc, on 12 August 2011 - 11:21 AM said: Nonsense. I went to a primary school with a number of rough children at it. Numerous are now doing very well for themselves. I assume you don't have the same contact with the 'underclass' that I do and are just talking theoretically... Injin, on 12 August 2011 - 11:38 AM said: No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 But your reply on 'actual statistics' was to his reponse to your 0.01% "statistic" Injin, on 12 August 2011 - 11:03 AM, said: They don't. What you hear about are the 0.01% of peopel who make it through. ccc, on 12 August 2011 - 11:21 AM said: Nonsense. I went to a primary school with a number of rough children at it. Numerous are now doing very well for themselves. I assume you don't have the same contact with the 'underclass' that I do and are just talking theoretically... Injin, on 12 August 2011 - 11:38 AM said: No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Are there oppurtunities and jobs for all of them? 50%, 20%, 10%? Please explain what happens to the rest? Same thing that has always happened. There are successes in society, always have been and always will be. This lot willl necome hte failures in society. Do you not see that by simply stating that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs these people are instantly accepting their place in the failures of the World ? However the ones int he very same situations who have some balls and drive will do something about it and take their place as the successes in society. Seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. A prisoner, kept warm, dry and fed well by his captors has it easy. Don't expect him to appreciate it though. . A prisoner cannot choose to leave when they wish. These people can. There is nothing stopping hoody #1 getting on a megabus up to Edinburgh and trying to get a job up here if he fancies. Or Manchester. Or Newcastle. Or Cardiff. Or Paris. Or Bonn, You see the slight difference in the two situations.... No I am looking at the actual statistics and not just cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance. Ah so you don't actually have any experience with the very people we are talking about here then. As I expected. Well I will leave it to your greater knowledge of people in these situations. I am sure the youtube vids are very interesting but maybe you want to know some of these people to have a good idea of what goes on in their lives ? Just a thought. No, child abuse victims don't function very well and over time can't maintain the cash needed to be in posh areas. pretty simple. Dubious. Where is your evidence. You've done well watching an hour long video in such a short space of time.. Cant access it from here. Hence why I replied to your actual point and not the video. What's needed for all the "get a job, work hard yadda yadda" strategies to work is the ability to delay gratification - and it's that ability to delay gratification which is the first things abuse destroys. They can plan in the moment, react to circcumstances, but imagining themselves in 10 years time and then build towards it isn't on the menu. Up to them. We all have choices in life. Wrong. We live in a chartalists, centrally controlled command economy - anyone with money displaces someone else who then can't have it. It's he same with savings - everyone with savings has someone else in their debt. Stop extrapolating personal circumstance and look at actual facts. Is the statement (Made numerous times by people all over the media) that there are NO jobs and NO opportunities out there corect or not. SImple question. Simple answer please. Pray tell, where are these 'actual statistics' that show that only 0.01% of people make it through? (Or are you, as usual, cretinously extrapolating from personal circumstance'?). I dont even know why I waste my time. Keeps my brain ticking over I suppose. Which is always a good thing. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) In da ghettos of Berkshire, right, de yoot ain't got nowhere to put der energy, 'cos like apart from yoot clubs, cinemas, theatres, sport centres, amusement arcades, football, school clubs, go-karting, dry-slope skiing, ice-skating, fishing, skate-boarding, Legoland, sea cadets, scouts, roller-discos, music workshops, oh yeah and swimming,… there ain't nothin' for kids to do. Not disagreeing with what he says because it's fair point if you have the entry fee but just to point out that these places aren't open at night or mostly even in the late evening when most of the looting and rioting happened. Of course not so long ago in the old days apart from relatively small numbers of shift workers most everybody would be asleep in bed resting for the next days school, work or whatever. Of course he was also making a joke about it and I don't blame him as it's his living. Edited August 12, 2011 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Of course not so long ago in the old days apart from relatively small numbers of shift workers most everybody would be asleep in bed resting for the next days school, work or whatever. Don't tell me you're even slightly suggesting that the old days were better??? Are you, really??? But what about all the progress that we all fought for over the last 40 years??? What about the wonderful modern world??? Surely, we made a big leap forward, didn't we? It's progress, it's evolution, things get better, aren't they? Please, please don't push us back to those horrible&dark days of the 1950s when everyone had to be polite, dress smartly and obey rules. It was sooooo dull and boring... as they also didn't have soaps, xfactor, lady gaga and tracksuits were only worn during sport competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesnor Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) Same thing that has always happened. There are successes in society, always have been and always will be. This lot willl necome hte failures in society. Do you not see that by simply stating that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs these people are instantly accepting their place in the failures of the World ? However the ones int he very same situations who have some balls and drive will do something about it and take their place as the successes in society. Seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's a question of degree, hence I offered a descending scale of opportunity and jobs, hoping you would agree that for some people both are diminishing. I only asked the question, what do we do with the failures? The solution this far has been that the state pays via welfare via taxation. Once the state pays, why should jobless fathers hang around, they're spare parts. The cycle continues, can you try to think of a way out that doesn't label the victims as scum, wasters, feral ad nauseam... . A prisoner cannot choose to leave when they wish. These people can. There is nothing stopping hoody #1 getting on a megabus up to Edinburgh and trying to get a job up here if he fancies. Or Manchester. Or Newcastle. Or Cardiff. Or Paris. Or Bonn, You see the slight difference in the two situations.... I used the prison analogy because the welfare chains on some people are just as tight as real chains. If you are totally dependent on welfare, merrily hopping on a Eurobus for a jolly to earn your fortune will mostly result in penury or much worse. Edited August 12, 2011 by Chesnor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Do you not see that by simply stating that there are NO opportunities and NO jobs these people are instantly accepting their place in the failures of the World ? However the ones int he very same situations who have some balls and drive will do something about it and take their place as the successes in society. Seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. depends on their skills aptitude and location, moving to another city you require a deposit, first few months rent and reference to get a place to live, and if your gamble doesn't pay off then that is a financial loss, significant to someone without a job it's about risk, balls and drive can get knocked out of you very quickly when said risk crystallises and you lose everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I used the prison analogy because the welfare chains on some people are just as tight as real chains. If you are totally dependent on welfare, merrily hopping on a Eurobus for a jolly to earn your fortune will mostly result in penury or much worse. Not really. I knew loads of uneducated, unemployed Polish people who were doing silly things out of boredom back at home. Then they got on a bus and are now working hard and leading normal lives in Germany, UK or France. However, although they had done silly things in the past out of boredom - they well knew it was wrong and were always ashamed of it. In most cases hard physical work is the best cure for all silliness. However, there always will be lazy bums in this world. I don't think we should care too much about them - it's their choice. If you tell them otherwise - you'll print them a license to be lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 depends on their skills aptitude and location, moving to another city you require a deposit, first few months rent and reference to get a place to live, and if your gamble doesn't pay off then that is a financial loss, significant to someone without a job it's about risk, balls and drive can get knocked out of you very quickly when said risk crystallises and you lose everything London rioters... What city would you suggest they move to, to look for work? OK so housing is hugely expensive there - but most of them live with their parents still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) Don't tell me you're even slightly suggesting that the old days were better??? Are you, really??? But what about all the progress that we all fought for over the last 40 years??? What about the wonderful modern world??? Surely, we made a big leap forward, didn't we? It's progress, it's evolution, things get better, aren't they? Please, please don't push us back to those horrible&dark days of the 1950s when everyone had to be polite, dress smartly and obey rules. It was sooooo dull and boring... as they also didn't have soaps, xfactor, lady gaga and tracksuits were only worn during sport competitions. Indeed I've given thought to that over time and in many ways the old days were much better but the modern world still has areas of great improvement. I think if poiticians had kept their promises over the years even just the ones in their signed election manifestos we might even have got the best of both worlds (or thereabouts) but they've totally failed the general population and UK business leadership in general has been pretty abysmal - both have been fuelled by greed and self interest. Edited August 12, 2011 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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