FUKUSHIMA earthquake and tsunami thread and aftermath

[Damik]

2?

wiki is already updated ......

http://en.wikipedia....ear_Power_Plant

At 21:00 JST (12:00 GMT) TEPCO announced that they planned to cool the leaking reactor with sea water (which started at 20:20 JST), then using boric acid to act as a neutron absorber to prevent a criticality accident.^[52][53] The sea water would take five to ten hours to fill the reactor core, after which it would require seawater cooling for around ten days.^[44] At 23:00 JST (14:00 GMT) TEPCO announced that due to the quake at 22:15^[54] the filling of the reactor with sea water and boric acid had been temporarily stopped but has been resumed after a short while.^[55][56]

At 01:17 JST on Sunday 13th March (16:17 GMT), the Japan Atomic Energy Agency announced that it was rating the Fukushima accident at 4 (accident with local consequences) on the 0–7 International Nuclear Event Scale (INES), below the Three Mile Island accident in seriousness.^[57]

IAEA was informed that sea water mixed with boron was injected in reactor and iodine delivered to residents.^{[58] [59]}

The primary containment has not failed. The Secondary containment building was damaged, but the containment building, which is an engineered pressure vessel that keeps radioactivity inside, is still intact. ^[60]

it seems that the reactor #1 can not meltdown anymore .....

Edited March 12, 2011 by Damik

[Charlie The Tramp Returns]

It`s great to read all the knowledgeable Historians on this thread.

[Number79]

I don't see how you can say that with any certainly at all.

Any peace feelers the Japanese were sending out at the time were mixed, half measures and were not from a unified Japanese authority.

Only those with access to ULTRA knew the full picture, which even Nimitz and MacArthur didn't have full access to. The diplomatic feelers in many cases were clearly attempts to buy time, such as trying to use the Soviet Union as an intermediate.

I'm afraid to say it wasn't until both the intervention of the Soviet Union and the dropping of the bombs that finally forced the intervention of of the Emperor himself to force the final decision to unconditional surrender.

Those are the facts, anything else is mere conjecture.

The Japanese navy was destroyed, their aircraft gone. The Japanese were dead in the water and had already sued for peace. Bombing civilians was entirely unnecessary, it was known at the time and I can say that with absolute certainty.

Cant be bothered digging for things now but just to add what wiki has, Trueman knew it and so did his staff...

Militarily unnecessary

The 1946 United States Strategic Bombing Survey, written by Paul Nitze, concluded that the atomic bombs had been unnecessary to the winning of the war. After reviewing numerous documents, and interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, Nitze reported:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.[68][69]

This conclusion assumed that a conventional fire-bombing attack would have continued, with ever-increasing numbers of B-29s, and a greater level of destruction to Japan's cities and population.[70] One of Nitze's most influential sources was Prince Fumimaro Konoe, who responded to a question asking whether Japan would have surrendered if the atomic bombs had not been dropped by saying that resistance would have continued through November or December, 1945.[71]

Historians, such as Bernstein, Hasegawa, and Newman, have criticized Nitze for drawing a conclusion that, they say, went far beyond what the available evidence warranted, in order to promote the reputation of the Air Force at the expense of the Army and Navy.[72][73][74]

Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.[75][76]

Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include General of the Army Douglas MacArthur,[77][78] Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President), Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials),[76] and Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.[79]

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.[69]

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.[80]

Historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not even the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories in Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender on 15 August 1945,[81] though the War Council did not know the extent of the losses to the Soviets in China at that time.

[Charlie The Tramp Returns]

I was not aware that many Morning Star readers frequent this Forum.

[Number79]

I was not aware that many Morning Star readers frequent this Forum.

what's that then?

[Charlie The Tramp Returns]

what's that then?

Observation that`s all.

[Number79]

Observation that`s all.

I meant what is the morning star? Is it this http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php?

[okaycuckoo]

I'm still happy the US won. And I still have confidence they'll do the right thing, but it's been severely tested the past ten years.

[EUBanana]

I think the Americans forget what they were doing to provoke and virtually force Japan to war before Pearl Harbour.

What? The Rape of Nanking?

I mean, it was that that made the US begin to lean on Japan - to stop them butchering the Chinese. And by attacking the US the Japanese Empire was trying to continue butchering the Chinese.

This anti Americanism is swinging into outright lunacy when people are defending the murderous regime that was the Japanese Empire.

Edited March 13, 2011 by EUBanana

[sundance_kid]

The question isn't whether they were defeated or not. There isn't even an argument to suggest 'some' wanted peace but to suggest unconditional surrender was imminent is ridiculous.

There is nothing to corroborate that past opinion. Who knows how long the military would have allowed the situation to drag on for?

Come on, there was an attempted coup the night before the Emperor was to address the people and even an attempt to bomb the Missouri.

I'm not going to pass judgement for a president who used every tool available to him to bring the war to a swift end on their terms.

At that point they had no patience to continue pandering to a pack of delusional generals with no cards left to play.

Edited March 13, 2011 by sundance_kid

[Number79]

The question isn't whether they were defeated or not. There isn't even an argument to suggest 'some' wanted peace but to suggest unconditional surrender was imminent is ridiculous.

At that point they had no patience to continue pandering to a pack of delusional generals with no cards left to play.

[Leroast]

to suggest unconditional surrender was imminent is ridiculous.

Of course it is ridiculous. The Japanese people would never have accepted unconditional surrender which risked the sanctity of the Emperor.

Which is why, even after the atomic bombings, they only accepted conditional terms.

[Number79]

Of course it is ridiculous. The Japanese people would never have accepted unconditional surrender which risked the sanctity of the Emperor.

Which is why, even after the atomic bombings, they only accepted conditional terms.

The japanese had been preparing to surrender for some time.

The surrender of Japan brought hostilities in World War II to a close. By the end of July 1945, the Imperial Japanese Navy was incapable of conducting operations and an Allied invasion of Japan was imminent. While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, Japan's leaders at the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (the "Big Six") were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union, to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese. The Soviets, meanwhile, were preparing to attack the Japanese, in fulfillment of their promises to the Americans and the British made at the Tehran and Yalta Conferences.

The Japanese were not expected to risk the Emporers sanctity, that was something that the British defended against the Americans at potsdam.

Edited March 13, 2011 by richyc

[Stars]

The japanese had been preparing to surrender for some time.

Depending on your definition of 'surrender', the Japanese had been preparing to surrender from the planning of Pearl harbour

They wanted to take territory and then come to a favourable peace with the US which gave them territory. The US wasn't prepared to come to terms

Edited March 13, 2011 by Stars

[billybong]

Got to admire all those working there to try and contain it.

The full extent of damage to people from the Chernobyl contaminated rains hardly ever seems to be discussed. I know people from Northern Greece for instance where they have levels of thyroid cancer and inactive thyroid that can only be explained by exposure to radiation from Chernobyl.

Chernobyl contaminated all over europe (at least) with a radius of about 1500 miles (at least) centred on Chernobyl extending in all directions including all over the UK and into the Atlantic, apparently into Canada and going into North Africa as well as over Asia. They withdrew a lot of UK livestock from the food chain and I think they're still testing UK animals because of it. Apparently in 2003 they were still testing about 1/4 million British sheep and about 400 British farms were subject to restriction because of radioactive fallout. There were reports of it being worldwide through the atmosphere and rainfall but the claim being that radiation levels became insignificant the further away you were.

UK cancer numbers being reported in the media seemed to shoot up since then but there never seems to be a link reported to that incident.

As well as Japan's entire population I imagine all of Japan's surrounding neighbours are listening intently to the news as well as the West coast of America.

[RedMercury]

As well as Japan's entire population I imagine all of Japan's surrounding neighbours are listening intently to the news as well as the West coast of America.

I live just north of San Francisco. I needed to stock up on emergency supplies anyway so I went and raided Safeway today, got two months worth of canned goods, etc. Apparently there were a few people in there today doing the same thing. By and large the populace seems oblivious though.

Other things I bought today:

35 Gallon water drum + purifying tablets

Two weeks worth of MREs

A lot of plastic sheeting + duct tape

I also put in an order for potassium iodide, which is selling out though. Also going up in price quite rapidly. Probably won't need any of it (and hopefully won't). Better safe than sorry - need the supplies in case of the "big one" anyway.

['Bart']

Has a meltdown ever been stopped once started?

There was one in 2008 that a Mr. G. Brown claimed to have stopped. However, given that many of his other claims turned out to be bogus, it's likely that the meltdown was only delayed.

[Frank8]

There was one in 2008 that a Mr. G. Brown claimed to have stopped. However, given that many of his other claims turned out to be bogus, it's likely that the meltdown was only delayed.

I had to google "G.Brown" meltdown before I realised you were talking about Gordon.

[Once in a lifetime]

I live just north of San Francisco. I needed to stock up on emergency supplies anyway so I went and raided Safeway today, got two months worth of canned goods, etc. Apparently there were a few people in there today doing the same thing. By and large the populace seems oblivious though.

Other things I bought today:

35 Gallon water drum + purifying tablets

Two weeks worth of MREs

A lot of plastic sheeting + duct tape

I also put in an order for potassium iodide, which is selling out though. Also going up in price quite rapidly. Probably won't need any of it (and hopefully won't). Better safe than sorry - need the supplies in case of the "big one" anyway.

stop being silly.

[mattT]

Chernobyl contaminated all over europe (at least) with a radius of about 1500 miles (at least) centred on Chernobyl extending in all directions including all over the UK and into the Atlantic, apparently into Canada and going into North Africa as well as over Asia. They withdrew a lot of UK livestock from the food chain and I think they're still testing UK animals because of it. Apparently in 2003 they were still testing about 1/4 million British sheep and about 400 British farms were subject to restriction because of radioactive fallout. There were reports of it being worldwide through the atmosphere and rainfall but the claim being that radiation levels became insignificant the further away you were.

UK cancer numbers being reported in the media seemed to shoot up since then but there never seems to be a link reported to that incident.

As well as Japan's entire population I imagine all of Japan's surrounding neighbours are listening intently to the news as well as the West coast of America.

I was at school in the North West of England at the time.

The previous week we'd measured background radiation with a geiger counter.

The week afterwards we measured it again. I seem to remember the reading being several times higher.

If land 2000 miles away can still be contaminated 30 years after an event, you have to wonder where the move to nuclear will take us. Not all stations will be well designed or run, never mind the possibility of natural disasters.

[RedMercury]

stop being silly.

To be fair, that image is pretty useless. That's normal background radiation and has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.

I live in the path of the jetstream from Japan, and I'd rather be safe than sorry if that plant (or the others nearby) goes critical. I'm not being silly, I'm just being careful.

Needed the food anyway for regular local earthquake survival.

[Tankus]

Again, define damage. A couple of broken fuel rods is easy enough to fix and if that's all it is then it should be technically feasible to return the plant to normal operation. Whether it's economically or politically feasible is another matter.

Once they use sea water.... the reactor is a write off

Caesium on the outside means that they have had a partial meltdown , which also means the whole primary circuit is contaminated with fuel particles.... its a write off

(PS... iodine is useless in reducing the effects of caesium ingestion , but its a good placebo for isotopes other than iodine 131 which gets concentrated by and attacks the thyroid ) best way to deal with Caesium is not to be there !

http://www.unsustain...g60041#msg60041

So there we go. Just for giggles, I'm going to post this on HPC as well and see what reaction it gets.

and if you are still "giggling"

this appears to be what was happening at Fukushima I, the reactor in question, and at the other reactors on the site which were said to be venting radioactive material. The important thing to remember is that the radioactivity is low level and very short lived.

that's not true , so how did the caesium get out eh ? ..before the explosion , its presence indicates partial meltdown .the venting after that is a major contaminate issue

Edited March 13, 2011 by Tankus

[Once in a lifetime]

To be fair, that image is pretty useless. That's normal background radiation and has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.

I live in the path of the jetstream from Japan, and I'd rather be safe than sorry if that plant (or the others nearby) goes critical. I'm not being silly, I'm just being careful.

Needed the food anyway for regular local earthquake survival.

You know there's alot of radiation in food too.

[StainlessSteelCat]

I was at school in the North West of England at the time.

The previous week we'd measured background radiation with a geiger counter.

The week afterwards we measured it again. I seem to remember the reading being several times higher.

If land 2000 miles away can still be contaminated 30 years after an event, you have to wonder where the move to nuclear will take us. Not all stations will be well designed or run, never mind the possibility of natural disasters.

One of the biggest problems I see with nuclear is that if we cannot manage without it, then nor can anyone else. Practically every nation will have to become a nuclear power to meet their future energy needs. As you say, not all of them will be as well run Or secure as....ahem...our own.

[Tankus]

I think with a bit of luck ......thats the end of future build ...Its a monumentally stupid way to boil water