Protest Turning Nasty In Trafalgar Sq

[Redcellar]

It clearly does pay society but it also costs as well. I've been to uni and I know about all the skipping of lectures, crap courses, and waster students on the booze every other night.

If university education is such a benefit to the individual then they'll be willing to bear the cost. If it's worth it for society, society will pay them what they're worth.

It's not hard to find examples of where society is paying for things that clearly aren't worth it.

Well then, we end up with only providing the basics, such as a welfare benefit system and council facilities.

Tax breaks for entrepeneurs, cash to them too, free advice and training, incentives to employ others. By your argument all those should go too. As not all businesses are succesful. In fact a huge number fail.

Any business breaks at all should go for that matter.

Sports subsidies ... gone

Rehab projects ... gone

Breaks for environmental developments ... gone

You get the point. We have to invest in and encourage the future.

[Toto deVeer]

Their own damn fault for not moving abroad if they want more from life.

Not much of an option under the current student debt peonage system. For most attractive overseas destinations, the student loan repayment schedules are accelerated, specifically, no doubt, to discourage well educated serfs from leaving the fiefdom.

[Executive Sadman]

I would protest myself [about the banking bailouts] too on a random Wednesday afternoon as I'm sure many others would, but I actually have the small matter of a job to go to; for 8 hours! There was thousands there, don't they have anything else to do? If only I could take arbitary days off like that.

A ' 'full time' degree is often six hours of lectures a week. And about another six hours of private study (or 30 mins of plagiarism)

[LJAR]

Has anyone noticed that loads of people go to uni in the US (almost 30%), more than here in the UK(just under 20%), despite them having nothing like the level of subsidy we do?

Looks like people will study if it is worth it hmm?

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

t's not hard to find examples of where society is paying for things that clearly aren't worth it.

Bank bailouts is the obvious one.

[Executive Sadman]

Impressionable children wound up by cynical left wing politicians.

Its just an excuse to set fire to stuff.

They advertised similar things when i was at 6th form for the 'may day' protests - the posters even said 'bring your own bricks and bats'

I was always too lazy to catch the bus down to London though.

[Redcellar]

Has anyone noticed that loads of people go to uni in the US (almost 30%), more than here in the UK(just under 20%), despite them having nothing like the level of subsidy we do?

Looks like people will study if it is worth it hmm?

That's not true.

There is a subsidy. In MI you pay a sum, something like 4K and then they cover the fees when your kid is grown up. Since their taxes are way less than ours, you could easily argue it is comparable.

[Executive Sadman]

Has anyone noticed that loads of people go to uni in the US (almost 30%), more than here in the UK(just under 20%), despite them having nothing like the level of subsidy we do?

Looks like people will study if it is worth it hmm?

IIRC both the US and us are 50-60%, Germany near 20% and europe somewhere in between.

[200p]

I wonder if they'll get the tanks out, at this rate, it will turn nasty.

[Toto deVeer]

Has anyone noticed that loads of people go to uni in the US (almost 30%), more than here in the UK(just under 20%), despite them having nothing like the level of subsidy we do?

Looks like people will study if it is worth it hmm?

The US has become a nation of subservient cattle, I'm afraid. This is clearly evident by what they are permitting their government to do to them at the airports, soon to be seen at the entrance to every edifice in the nation. They will do, pay and bend over and receive whatever their uniformed overlords tell them to, largely without complaint.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Toto deVeer

[cica]

Tax breaks for entrepeneurs, cash to them too, free advice and training, incentives to employ others. By your argument all those should go too. As not all businesses are succesful. In fact a huge number fail.

Any business breaks at all should go for that matter.

Sports subsidies ... gone

Rehab projects ... gone

Breaks for environmental developments ... gone

You get the point. We have to invest in and encourage the future.

I've just put £10k of my own money into my own business. I don't want to even waste my time going after grants because not everyone gets them etc. I'd rather we have lower taxes and my business succeed on how well I read the market and provide my customers with a better service than my competitors rather than my ability to manipulate the systems of my local counselors or politicians.

Obviously there's a lot of grey areas but paying only 1/10th of the real cost of university fees (correct me but it is current somewhere around there) is not right.

Sports subsidies would not be gone. Tax payers don't mind paying for certain things. I'm happy when I see my money going to school sports. I'm not when I see drunk students not turning up at lectures which costs a fortune. Also, one of the biggest successes recently has been british cycling - that came from the voluntary tax on the stupid AKA Lotto.

[LJAR]

That's not true.

There is a subsidy. In MI you pay a sum, something like 4K and then they cover the fees when your kid is grown up. Since their taxes are way less than ours, you could easily argue it is comparable.

there is some subsidy to be sure, but the scale of it is tiny compared to here.

And the subsidies only apply if you go to uni in your home state to a state uni, not if you go to Harvard etc.

The point is that cost will only put people off if they shouldn't bother going in the first place.

edit my stats came from Wikipedia and the UK census data we have nothing like 50% of people with a degree.

Edited November 24, 2010 by LJAR

[cakehead]

You ever wondered why graduates are flipping burgers, doing bar work and other minimum wage monkey work, and plumbers, carpenters etc are making near six figure sums and coming in from half way across the world?

Could it be, could it be...because TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO UNIVERSITY AND GETTING USELESS DEGREES!!!!

Nothing like a misdirected rant to settle a Blimpish ulcer, eh? The point of education is more than a transferable certificate. I passed my 11+, the junior pub quiz that determined lives, got my A levels, drank my way through a degree but met a network of invaluable contacts and had my mind broadened. Who am I to deprive the experience of today's youth? When I briefly worked in the guru racket (aka higher education) I recall one chap was earning £30K A DAY within a few weeks of finishing. More importantly, he thoroughly enjoyed his university education.

Don't be so mealy mouthed and tight arsed, cough up.

[Redcellar]

there is some subsidy to be sure, but the scale of it is tiny compared to here.

And the subsidies only apply if you go to uni in your home state to a state uni, not if you go to Harvard etc.

The point is that cost will only put people off if they shouldn't bother going in the first place.

edit my stats came from Wikipedia and the UK census data we have nothing like 50% of people with a degree.

That's not a fair statement. I know first hand that the scale is not tiny. All my friends at work went to in state uni's for their degrees for the financial reasons. The cost is a huge factor as they have kids and have already paid into the scheme for them too.

"The point is that cost will only put people off if they shouldn't bother going in the first place." Not true for the first hand observations above.

[Executive Sadman]

Nothing like a misdirected rant to settle a Blimpish ulcer, eh? The point of education is more than a transferable certificate. I passed my 11+, the junior pub quiz that determined lives, got my A levels, drank my way through a degree but met a network of invaluable contacts and had my mind broadened. Who am I to deprive the experience of today's youth? When I briefly worked in the guru racket (aka higher education) I recall one chap was earning £30K A DAY within a few weeks of finishing. More importantly, he thoroughly enjoyed his university education.

Don't be so mealy mouthed and tight arsed, cough up.

???

You dont need to go to university to get any of that. Some of the most interesting, intelligent people ive met have never set foot in one.

Personally, i hated most of university, but felt pressurized into going by various councillors, relatives and so on, purely because i got good a levels. Wasted three years of my life. Maybe i should get those three years back if irresponsibility is key and have my debt refunded?

[cakehead]

Personally, i hated most of university

Well that settles it. Someone on a web forum didn't enjoy it so we'd better shut them down.

[_w_]

You offer nothing to a reasonable question as to an alternative but then start indirectly insulting me!

I'm sorry, I find this police approach dangerous and outrageous and I guess I'm taking it out on you, very stupid of me.

The alternative for the police is to treat people with respect at all times, and be rough on criminals that are proven to be guilty. I don't see the difficulty. The moment the police treat a whole group as animals because of a broken window we reach police state status IMO, and the closest such state I know of is the Nazi state.

This tells me more about your level of ability to handle probing questions than you'd rather give away.

I guess I deserve that.

Now, back to my question, what is the alternative to kettling? Come on, think, try and give an answer without resorting to insults.

Give it a go, even readers of the Socilaist worker should be able to offer an alternative.

Just handle protests the way every protest has been handle since WWII, until kettling. The police should begin by treating people with respect, and then handle criminals as they need to. At the moment this technique treats everyone worse than they would a criminal (I don't believe prisoners are treated this way are they?).

Edited November 24, 2010 by _w_

[_w_]

I wonder if they'll get the tanks out, at this rate, it will turn nasty.

This guy is on par with the greatest. Such a fantastic picture.

[ParticleMan]

Why don't any of these dipshits stop to ask themselves why higher prices are not triggering additional supply?

Education is just a commodity like any other, after all.

Personally I think that the Conservatives got this one right - remove indirect subsidies (ie, remove price support) and let prices float freely.

I think they need to go a step further though, and identify then crush rent-seeking behaviour on the supply side of this industry...

[shindigger]

That's because you haven't thought about it very hard...

If I own the means of production (land, water, other raw resources etc) and then, using these resources, I de-facto become the only means by which everyone else can earn a living in order to sustain themsleves by working for me and by me paying them in tokens that they must exchange with me for products that they have produced from the raw resoruces I control.

All of the above being the case, my costs include such things as machinery, labour etc. Otherwise known as operating costs. If, big business lobbys government and says that they need half the damn country to have degrees in order for those businesses to be competitive, then degrees are obviously part of those operating costs. That being the case, big business should pay for those operating costs no more or less than they might be expected to pay for any other operating cost. If they can't afford to pay them then they have no business being privately owned.

It's akin to a private business only offering you a job if you pay them a 30k charge towards the cost of their machinery. As I mentioned above, this would be fine in a truly free-market where you had an option to refuse the offer. However, as also previously pointed out, if all of the means of production are already sewn up, it is not a free-market as you have no choice in terms of refusal. We used to have an arrangement like this in medeival times before the industrial revolution.

It's called serfdom.

Why should young people pay for the operating costs of big business? Either degrees are unnecessary or, if they are necessary, the companies who need them should pay for them.

I agree with all that.

Its just a crying shame that only a small percentage of those on the demos today will have joined the dots in this way.

Some have mentioned Vodaphones tax issues on the news today. But its not really been the focus of their ire.

Tony Blair has hoisted them by their own vanity, told them they were worth it.

Would be "students" walking around talking about "Uni" when they can hardly spell their own name.

But they still want their money, still tell them they can achieve, even though they were born to shovel and toil and sweat.

Sorry thats how it is, nobody in politics would be allowed, or even want to say that, but its the truth.

Lots of rich builders about who cant spell eh?

Almost as big a ponzi scam as housing itself.

PS. I'm a born shit shoveller too, but worked it out quick enough to maximise my opportunities.

Vanity does not pay your bills kids.

Edited November 24, 2010 by shindigger

[Tiger Woods?]

Newbie, not sure you've been around long enough to cast aspersions at people's posts.

This is the sort of student that needs seeing to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11833609

You'll notice the film is cut as the Police advance. Let's hope they taught them some manners as they obviously didn't get taught any growing up.

Whilst I feel sorry for the horses, they shouldn't be being used for crowd control in a democracy. It is all about riding down the peasants...nasty and not something that people exercising their democratic rights to protest should be subject to...unless of course they are also allowed to ride horse into the police lines?

Edited November 24, 2010 by Tiger Woods?

[LuckyOne]

Why don't any of these dipshits stop to ask themselves why higher prices are not triggering additional supply?

Education is just a commodity like any other, after all.

Personally I think that the Conservatives got this one right - remove indirect subsidies (ie, remove price support) and let prices float freely.

I think they need to go a step further though, and identify then crush rent-seeking behaviour on the supply side of this industry...

Too true.

At the moment, the education system is a bit like the tabacco industry in the 1970s. It is promising great things but is ignoring the back end costs.

The Dunhill ads at the cinema in the 1970s would have made just about everyone start smoking. The costs were only more obvious 30 years later.

The education system now "promises" a brigher future for all graduates based on historical income distributions. The reality that the graduate market is now massively oversupplied and the fact that graduates are now burdened with massive debts that they are unlikely to be able to repay due to massive oversupply will only really impact graduates in 10 to 15 years' time.

[dubsie]

Who really cares, honestly.

I care but it's people like you that make this country such a push over. It's about time someone stood up against all the lies. Downsizing didn't work for Ireland and it won't work here.

[tallguy]

Societies exist on authority, rules and regulations, think, do they not teach this in OU social sciences?

Hang on, unless you too are a Socialist worker reader who hankers for the day when you can take without having to stake a claim in this world.

I know, come the revolution you'll all be driving Rolls Royces.

What makes you think I am a socialist?

Oh wait, I know, it's your ideologically pre-concieved, knee-jerk thought processes isn't it.

I understand thinking for yourself is hard, but you should really make the effort. You don't know where it might lead...

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[bearwithasorehead]

Good post. The right answer to reducing the cost of universities is to limit it to the brightest students.

Errr, what happens when all 6th formers get 3 As?