Protest Turning Nasty In Trafalgar Sq

[tallguy]

Errr, what happens when all 6th formers get 3 As?

You raise the bar for achieving a grade A at A-levels. This is merely an issue of grade distribution. It already happens. Indeed, it's always happened. How do you suppose that many more kids get A grades now compared to in the past.?

It's not because they suddenly got brigher.

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[bearwithasorehead]

A ' 'full time' degree is often six hours of lectures a week. And about another six hours of private study (or 30 mins of plagiarism)

only if they're reasonably intelligent. More like 18 hours of private study for most if they're average (as most are now) and they want a 2:1.

Oh, and shhhhhhh, don't tell the dears that their parents' generation got a lot more tutition (1-to-1s, tutors actually reading their work and talking to them) for their money.... wait..... they got it for...... free!

[thecrashingisles]

Good post. The right answer to reducing the cost of universities is to limit it to the brightest students.

Errr, what happens when all 6th formers get 3 As?

Will they all understand superlatives?

[bearwithasorehead]

Whilst I feel sorry for the horses, they shouldn't be being used for crowd control in a democracy. It is all about riding down the peasants...nasty and not something that people exercising their democratic rights to protest should be subject too...unless of course they are also allowed to ride horse into the police lines?

Judging by the comments on this thread, some would like to see the riders armed with sabres, a la Doctor Zhivago

[bearwithasorehead]

You raise the bar for achieving a grade A at A-levels. This is merely an issue of grade distribution. It already happens. Indeed, it's always happened. How do you suppose that many more kids get A grades now compared to in the past.?

It's not because they suddenly got brigher.

Ok, great - who's going to do this? In the meantime, how do the universities distinguish between the 300 students applying for 50 places who all have 3As?

[bearwithasorehead]

Will they all understand superlatives?

Funnily enough, I haven't yet met ANY student that understood the term 'superlative'.

[tallguy]

Ok, great - who's going to do this? In the meantime, how do the universities distinguish between the 300 students applying for 50 places who all have 3As?

It is done every single year by the examining boards. If an examining board expects to obtain say, 20% As, 20% Bs, 20% Cs etc and they find in one particular year that the stats do not match that expectation, they simply re-adjust the difficulty level of the questions in the following year's paper until the stats do match the expectations.

There are no such things as "objective" grades. All grade distributions are manufactured. You are confusing the objective ranking of pupils' performance on tests and the grade labels that are allocated to those ranked distributions.

As for how universities distinguish between the current 300 hundred students applying for fifty places. The answer is with great difficulty when they all have A grades.

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[stormymonday_2011]

I care but it's people like you that make this country such a push over. It's about time someone stood up against all the lies. Downsizing didn't work for Ireland and it won't work here.

You are coming rather close to the crucial point about these protests.

The fact that their response may be naive or economically illiterate or not in accordance with the education 'market' is rather missing the historical significance of these events

For the first time since the late 1960s the young are not buying the crap being sold to them by their elders in a serious way. (ie the outrage is real not manufactured).

They are beginning to become politicised in away that most of us tired old conformists who grew up in the intervening decades dont have clue about.

At the moment their protests are narrow, self centred and rather incoherent but they may not stay that way

Interesting times

Edited November 24, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[tallguy]

You are coming rather close to the crucial point about these protests.

The fact that their response may be naive or economically illiterate or not in accordance with the education 'market' is rather missing the historical significance of these events

For the first time since the late 1960s the young are not buying the crap being sold to them by their elders in a serious way. (ie the outrage is not mnaufactured).

They are beginning to become politicised in away that most of us tired old conformists who grew up in the intervening decades dont have clue about.

At the moment their protests are narrow, self centred and rather incoherent but they may not stay that way

Interesting times

Exactly.

Or at least, I bloody well hope so. My formative years were in the North East in the seventies and eighties and so I did not experience the de-politicising influence of relatively easy affluence that occured in other parts of the country.

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[bearwithasorehead]

It is done every single year by the examining boards. If an examining board expects to obtain say, 20% As, 20% Bs, 20% Cs etc and they find in one particular year that the stats do not match that expectation, they simply re-adjust the difficulty level of the questions in the following year's paper until the stats do match the expectations.

There are no such things as "objective" grades. All grade distributions are manufactured. You are confusing the objective ranking of pupils' performance on tests and the grade labels that are allocated to those ranked distributions.

As for how universities distinguish between the current 300 hundred students applying for fifty places. The answer is with great difficulty.

I think I understand your point, but it may be that I am being thick. Are you saying that there has NOT been grade inflation (i.e. distributions are static)? I was told by an A level examiner that the pass mark for a particular exam had been progressively whittled down to something like 20%.

It is very late here in Central Asia and I've been at the fermented horse piss.

[Tiger Woods?]

I think I understand your point, but it may be that I am being thick. Are you saying that there has NOT been grade inflation (i.e. distributions are static)? I was told by an A level examiner that the pass mark for a particular exam had been progressively whittled down to something like 20%.

It is very late here in Central Asia and I've been at the fermented horse piss.

No, just that grade inflation is being controlled so that it can be sold as believable improvement to the perpetually deluded.

[pyracantha]

When I briefly worked in the guru racket (aka higher education) I recall one chap was earning £30K A DAY within a few weeks of finishing.

Doing what? What legal job earns that sort of money for a new graduate (or anyone for that matter). Was he Phil Spencer?

[stormymonday_2011]

Exactly.

Or at least, I bloody well hope so. My formative years were in the North East in the seventies and eighties and so I did not experience the de-politicising influence of relatively easy affluence that occured in other parts of the country.

At the moment it is just student fees that is agitating them but they will soon realise that these are just one cog in the machine designed to get them on that lifetime treadmill of debt dependency. They are not revolutionaries. It is simply that the price of conformity is now being set too high. When they begin to question the entire system the ride may start to get a bit bumpy for the rest of us.

Edited November 24, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[hpc-craig]

The generation protesting today has been well and truly f*cked up the rear for the following reasons:

1. The country has been bankrupted by their grandparents

2. There is no real industry and few genuine prospects left in this country

3. You get brain washed into going to University (any course, any cost) by peers, parents and teachers (my Head of sixth form as good as told me to go f*ck myself when I told him I wouldn't be going to uni as I wanted to set up my own business. Not even a good luck) - "Better Jobs", "the experience", "rite of passage" etc.

4. Their protest was taken over, as it was a couple of weeks ago, by a few yobs intent on making trouble, who I doubt can even read and write properly.

[pyracantha]

only if they're reasonably intelligent. More like 18 hours of private study for most if they're average (as most are now) and they want a 2:1.

I did a science 1st degree. Adding up labs, tutorials, library time, lectures and personal study I did at least 40 hrs/week. Any degree needs that sort of weekly effort. Less "contact" time = more personal study.

I was a warden in halls of residence during my PhD and saw so many spoilt brats literally pi$$ing away their opportunity. The really hard working students were (I am ashamed to say) mostly from overseas.

[tallguy]

I think I understand your point, but it may be that I am being thick. Are you saying that there has NOT been grade inflation (i.e. distributions are static)? I was told by an A level examiner that the pass mark for a particular exam had been progressively whittled down to something like 20%.

It is very late here in Central Asia and I've been at the fermented horse piss.

No

I am saying specifically that grades have been inflated.

There are two ways to achieve this

The first way (the way that most people will tend to intuitively think it happens) is for grades to be given for lower scores. For example, last year an A grade was only given if someone got 70% whereas this year they get an A for 60%. This method is actually rarely used. Mainly because it is so transparent.

The second method (the one that is usually used) involves manipulating something called the "floor" and "ceiling" effect. This refers to how easy the easiest questions are and how hard the hardest questions are. If there are not enough easy questions, the test is said to have a high floor. The consequence of this in terms of pupils’ scores on the test is that a significant minority of them will tend to be bunched at the bottom of the test in terms of their results. This is ordinarily considered to be evidence of a badly constructed test. The reason being that it becomes difficult to distinguish between pupils’ performance. If loads of the kids get 0% this doesn’t necessarily mean they are all equally poor at the subject being tested. It there had been even easier questions in the test, then you would find these kids’ scores would be spread more evenly between, say, 0% and 10%.

The same problem applies to the top of the test. If the ceiling is too low (meaning there are not enough hard questions) there will be a bunching of scores pushing at the 100% mark. Again, this makes for poor distinguishing of kids’ performance. If you get a large number of kids getting100% you can’t tell who is the brightest of this sub group within the distribution.

However

If you want to get lots more kids achieving grade A, then you do want a low ceiling.....

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[bearwithasorehead]

No

I am saying specifically that grades have been inflated.

There are two ways to achieve this

The first way (the way that most people will tend to intuitively think it happens) is for grades to be given for lower scores. For example, last year an A grade was only given if someone got 70% whereas this year they get an A for 60%. This method is actually rarely used. Mainly because it is so transparent.

The second method (the one that is usually used) involves manipulating something the "floor" and "ceiling" effect. This refers to how easy the easiest questions are and how hard the hardest questions are. If there are not enough easy questions, the test is said to have a high floor. The consequence of this in terms of pupils’ scores on the test is that a significant minority of them will tend to be bunched at the bottom of the test in terms of their results. This is ordinarily considered to be evidence of a badly constructed test. The reason being that it becomes difficult to distinguish between pupils’ performance. If loads of the kids get 0% this doesn’t necessarily mean they are all equally poor at the subject being tested. It there had been even easier questions in the test, then you would find these kids’ scores would be spread more evenly between, say, 0% and 10%.

The same problem applies to the top of the test. If the ceiling is too low (meaning there are not enough hard questions) there will be a bunching of scores pushing at the 100% mark. Again, this makes for poor distinguishing of kids’ performance. If you get a large number of kids getting100% you can’t tell who is the brightest of this sub group within the distribution.

However

If you want to get lots more kids achieving grade A, then you do want a low ceiling.....

Ummm, thanks. [looks around nervously] is this what standard deviation is supposed to be an indicator for?

My own experience shows low ceilings at A level and then high ones at degree level........ A-grade kid goes straight to 3rd class

[bearwithasorehead]

I did a science 1st degree. Adding up labs, tutorials, library time, lectures and personal study I did at least 40 hrs/week. Any degree needs that sort of weekly effort. Less "contact" time = more personal study.

I was a warden in halls of residence during my PhD and saw so many spoilt brats literally pi$$ing away their opportunity. The really hard working students were (I am ashamed to say) mostly from overseas.

40 sounds about right. I was talking about a modern languages degree: 8-10 hours classes and 20-30 hours self-study.

Re the warden experience - yeah it is soul destroying to see so many young people with no interest in stretching themselves. The most depressing thing though is that many of them have daddy or mummy's friends to get them a city job even with a 2:2 at the end

[tallguy]

Ummm, thanks. [looks around nervously] is this what standard deviation is supposed to be an indicator for?

My own experience shows low ceilings at A level and then high ones at degree level........ A-grade kid goes straight to 3rd class

Standard deviation is indeed a good way to see through the grade shennanigans. Standard deviation is a kind of short-hand ranking statistic.

As for high ceilings at degree level. I would say this is far more variable due to a looser standardisation of curriculum than for A levels and so depends on the institution in question much more.

Edited November 24, 2010 by tallguy

[Protect Rural England]

This behaviour does their cause no good at all. It weakens it.

[billybong]

Alternatives to allowing kettling.

Years back they didn't kettle (that's just by observation), at least not as a first response. They agreed moving protest marches along agreed routes (in London down Oxford Street and other main streets for example) with lots of message chanting about the complaints, the aims and objectives with placards and such like. Lots of megaphones and so on so that the message could be heard. They lasted all day, sometimes longer.

Often on a Saturday so no disruption to lectures.

Usually London marches ended up at open spaces like Hyde Park and culminated in speeches by student leaders and sympathetic politicians. Probably better than attacking a van left as bait. Beware that eventually student leaders sometimes make it to government and become indistinguishable from those that they protest against. NuLabour serves as a prime example of that but who could have predicted.

What seems fairly clear is that there was an absence of student leadership during the kettling. Some brave souls standing on a soap box to express the reasons for grievance might have got some of the message across before dispersion. Apparently there were NO sympathetic politicians present. Perhaps they were too busy making pledges. A sad reflection on UK democracy these days and the lobbying, brown envelope and expenses brigades - but not entirely unexpected.

Some student leadership might emerge in due course to likely improve on and adapt.

Amazing to hear on BBC2 Newsnight Paxman asking a small group of students "what are you protesting about" and really the answers weren't that well expressed or formulated but that's understandable. Nobody wants the robotic, zombified, dissembling (lying and deceiving) and misleading answers and communication like so many businessmen and politicians these days but a reasonably clearly presented expression of what it's all about should be aimed for by student representatives when asked.

Edited November 25, 2010 by billybong

[Protect Rural England]

Alternatives to allowing kettling.

Years back they didn't kettle (that's just by observation), at least not as a first response. They agreed moving protest marches along agreed routes (in London down Oxford Street and other main streets for example) with lots of message chanting about the complaints, the aims and objectives with placards and such like. Lots of megaphones and so on so that the message could be heard.

Usually London marches ended up at open spaces like Hyde Park and culminated in speeches by student leaders and sympathetic politicians. Probably better than attacking a van left as bait. Beware that eventually student leaders sometimes make it to government and become indistinguishable from those that they protest against. NuLabour serves as a prime example of that but who could have predicted.

What seems fairly clear is that there was an absence of student leadership during the kettling. Some brave souls standing on a soap box to express the reasons for grievance might have got some of the message across before dispersion. Apparently there were NO sympathetic politicians present. Perhaps they were too busy making pledges. A sad reflection on UK democracy these days and the lobbying, brown envelope and expenses brigades - but not entirely unexpected.

Some student leadership might emerge in due course to likely improve on and adapt.

Amazing to hear on BBC2 Newsnight Paxman asking a small group of students "what are you protesting about" and really the answers weren't that well expressed or formulated but that's understandable. Nobody wants the robotic, zombified and misleading answers and communication like so many businessmen and politicians these days but a reasonably clearly presented expression of what it's all about should be aimed for by student representatives when asked.

Students found guilty of a criminal offence should be expelled from their university then all benefits they receive withdrawn. I object to my taxes being used to fund criminals

[stormymonday_2011]

Interesting to note that the famous student uprising in Paris in 1968 began over the issue of University reform and the presssure on resources in the Sorbonne. It only turned into a wider political protest after the authorities used excessive police force to try and suppress the original demonstrations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_in_France

A lesson that perhaps Messr Cameron and Clegg might like to ponder

[billybong]

Students found guilty of a criminal offence should be expelled from their university then all benefits they receive withdrawn. I object to my taxes being used to fund criminals

I explained that years back the marches were agreed and the routes were agreed and they peacefully culminated in speeches and afterwards dispersed. So no kettling.

Where is the criminal offence in that type of march - there is/was none. That is clear to anyone reading the post.

Why you chose to respond in that way is a bit of a puzzle.

Here it is again.

Alternatives to allowing kettling.

Years back they didn't kettle (that's just by observation), at least not as a first response. They agreed moving protest marches along agreed routes (in London down Oxford Street and other main streets for example) with lots of message chanting about the complaints, the aims and objectives with placards and such like. Lots of megaphones and so on so that the message could be heard. They lasted all day, sometimes longer.

Often on a Saturday so no disruption to lectures.

Usually London marches ended up at open spaces like Hyde Park and culminated in speeches by student leaders and sympathetic politicians. Probably better than attacking a van left as bait. Beware that eventually student leaders sometimes make it to government and become indistinguishable from those that they protest against. NuLabour serves as a prime example of that but who could have predicted.

What seems fairly clear is that there was an absence of student leadership during the kettling. Some brave souls standing on a soap box to express the reasons for grievance might have got some of the message across before dispersion. Apparently there were NO sympathetic politicians present. Perhaps they were too busy making pledges. A sad reflection on UK democracy these days and the lobbying, brown envelope and expenses brigades - but not entirely unexpected.

Some student leadership might emerge in due course to likely improve on and adapt.

Amazing to hear on BBC2 Newsnight Paxman asking a small group of students "what are you protesting about" and really the answers weren't that well expressed or formulated but that's understandable. Nobody wants the robotic, zombified, dissembling (lying and deceiving) and misleading answers and communication like so many businessmen and politicians these days but a reasonably clearly presented expression of what it's all about should be aimed for by student representatives when asked.

Edited November 25, 2010 by billybong

[Protect Rural England]

Interesting to note that the famous student uprising in Paris in 1968 began over the issue of University reform and the presssure on resources in the Sorbonne. It only turned into a wider political protest after the authorities used excessive police force to try and suppress the original demonstrations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_in_France

A lesson that perhaps Messr Cameron and Clegg might like to ponder

I don't think they'll last

Loyal LibDem supporters are seriously hacked off

Loyal Tories are seriously hacked off

Loyal Labour luvvies are lost for words, ideas, policies

Where are we headed?