U K Urged To Come Clean On 4.8 Trillion Debt -Zombie Level

[needsleep]

...the build up to the collapse was Gordo ...it started in '97 from the man building the 'miracle' economy with 'no more boom and bust' ....no it was not all 'from America'.... and yes we did have 'liar' loans etc etc ....

As chancellor Brown took us into surplus at one point from a deficit he inherited from the Tories in 1997. In 2007/8, just before the crisis really kicked in, the deficit was the same as it was in 1997. The interesting thing is how we managed to go from a really strong position into deficit before the crisis. A lot of the reasons are well understood and centre around piss poor forecasting (which incidentally is continuing under the new government with the puppet OBR and Mervyn King tucked firmly into the coalition's pocket) by government and the BoE with tax receipts falling significantly below expected levels. The bottom line is that in 2007 there was a recognised deficit problem and there were plans to deal with it. The government was kind of caught out really and completely overtaken by events.

[Tired of Waiting]

As chancellor Brown took us into surplus at one point from a deficit he inherited from the Tories in 1997. In 2007/8, just before the crisis really kicked in, the deficit was the same as it was in 1997. The interesting thing is how we managed to go from a really strong position into deficit before the crisis. A lot of the reasons are well understood and centre around piss poor forecasting (which incidentally is continuing under the new government with the puppet OBR and Mervyn King tucked firmly into the coalition's pocket) by government and the BoE with tax receipts falling significantly below expected levels. The bottom line is that in 2007 there was a recognised deficit problem and there were plans to deal with it. The government was kind of caught out really and completely overtaken by events.

Jeeezus.

[Darkman]

biological reality is the brits are passive !

cuts are on, no resistance.

As for the pensioners & their payments, these are old people, they won't fight either.

What other default in liabilities would cause full sacle brick throwing ?

Well there's a lot of truth to this, regardless of the science.

Countries like France have pro-active and mobilised workers who can stand up for themselves. And they do regularly.

Brits basically turn over and take it.

Any sign of resistance is rare and wholly demonised by the public and media. Just look at BA....

[Once in a lifetime]

[mods could we merge this with "Merv's Vigilance (Inaction) May Push I R To 8%" thread]

Cor..! just think of it ? base rates at 8% and you think we're struggling now !

Imagine there's no deficit

It's easy if you try

No debts to own us

Above us only mew skies

Imagine all the people

Living it up for today...

You may say I'm a debtor

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll bail us

And the world will be as one ~ J lennon

[Sourman]

Another fine example of the collective hysterics that have predominated this forum for a while now.

[Laughing Gnome]

Todays deficit is yesterdays unfunded pension liability.

To project forward decades worth of pension payouts and then equate that to present national debt is specious.

When company pension schemes "black holes" are bandied about something similar is going on.

Pensions are (mostly) paid to UK resident pensioners and spent back into the domestic economy.

Funding this from taxation is not the same thing as owing shedloads to the rest of the world.

Undoubtedly we havebig problems, but I don't think it is helpful to mix chalk with cheese.

[sharpe]

Is anyone really in any doubt that they are going to print it up and hand it out?

Come on....

No doubt there - mainly because they already started printing.

Are public sector pensions now linked to cpi rather than rpi? That has likely reduced that liability significantly. They are printing and also cutting. The pound is holding up well which shows someone has confidence in what is currently being done.

[concerned_money]

Youi are seriously suggesting that there is a huge genetic difference between the english and the greeks?

not hugh, but that whole belt of southern countries are "hot heads"- fact.

environment dictates how organisms evolve - fact.

If I lived in greece I'd develop skin cancer very qucikly - fact.

anyone who states the above fact is quickly branded with very unpleasant words, or forced to retire/resign - fact.

And I already said that if you think it's going to collpase through indifference I can see your point. You still haven't shown how it can continue.

I see varying degrees of collapse across the social strata, geographically & demographically hitting the young&old first & hardest.

For many life is going to be anything but normal for the next decade, for others probably little changes here & there.

I don't know how it will continue, but I know they are going to make cuts & try.

What can't happen won't. The liabilities are impossible to pay off. So they won't be. The state can't continue as it is. So it won't do. The pensions can't be paid. So they won't be. People don't work unless they get to keep what they make. So they won't do.

Where are the resources going to come from to continue the status quo?

The cuts are reducing the size of the state, it must change -agreed

The liabilities will be renegotiated, better to get something back ?

People that work & have families & homes will work to just break even.

The pensions will get fudged, the old folk aren't important in the governments eyes (no work potential).

Is anyone really in any doubt that they are going to print it up and hand it out?

Come on....

my core disagreement is that rather than debase the currency further, cuts & fudging (rule changes) will be used to greater effect than hitherto.

[Injin]

my core disagreement is that rather than debase the currency further, cuts & fudging (rule changes) will be used to greater effect than hitherto.

So you agree that the system is finished.

Okay.

Why all the huffing and puffing then?

[concerned_money]

So you agree that the system is finished.

Okay.

Why all the huffing and puffing then?

As my username implies concerned about my savings, your initial post implied printing to destruction, that means I'm toast !

Why all the huffing & puffing, beacuse you may be correct, I hope your not.

The events of the next 6months-3years will determine the rest of my life, getting it wrong could be really *gulp* painful.

I'm guessing your position is in metals to avoid paper ?

Lets face it the money lenders & land owners have a nice little shake-down racket here in blighty, they want to maintain the status quo. That means preserving confidence in the money system & HPI. To achieve this means CUTS.

[Injin]

As my username implies concerned about my savings, your initial post implied printing to destruction, that means I'm toast !

Why all the huffing & puffing, beacuse you may be correct, I hope your not.

So do I. My hope and my favoured outcoe don't matter.

The events of the next 6months-3years will determine the rest of my life, getting it wrong could be really *gulp* painful.

I'm guessing your position is in metals to avoid paper ?

Nope.

Lets face it the money lenders & land owners have a nice little shake-down racket here in blighty, they want to maintain the status quo. That means preserving confidence in the money system & HPI. To achieve this means CUTS.

They have bills to pay.

They have two tricks

Stealing

Printing

Printing gets the highest profits and longest time out of the system.

[concerned_money]

They have two tricks

Stealing

Printing

Printing gets the highest profits and longest time out of the system.

what about trick3 ?

selling off the odd building plot here & there nod-nod-wink-wink

we live in a land owning aristocracy that masquerades as a meritocracy right ?

The Aristocracy

However, in spite of the extent of public and establishment ownership, 32 percent of

Britain is owned (or held in trust) by titled families. Although over the years taxation

and other economic pressures have led to the break-up and sale of some aristocratic

estates, a large number of them still survive today. It has been estimated that these 18

million acres, consisting of estates 5,000 acres and larger, are owned by just 200 titled

families. The bulk of the land is rural, and the largest estates are in Scotland, where

there has been less land sold off than in England. But who are today’s aristocratic

landowners and how do they survive?

The table below lists some of the larger aristocratic (page3)

[Injin]

what about trick3 ?

selling off the odd building plot here & there nod-nod-wink-wink

we live in a land owning aristocracy that masquerades as a meritocracy right ?

The Aristocracy

However, in spite of the extent of public and establishment ownership, 32 percent of

Britain is owned (or held in trust) by titled families. Although over the years taxation

and other economic pressures have led to the break-up and sale of some aristocratic

estates, a large number of them still survive today. It has been estimated that these 18

million acres, consisting of estates 5,000 acres and larger, are owned by just 200 titled

families. The bulk of the land is rural, and the largest estates are in Scotland, where

there has been less land sold off than in England. But who are today’s aristocratic

landowners and how do they survive?

The table below lists some of the larger aristocratic (page3)

Who to?

This is the end of a game of monopoly.

[concerned_money]

Who to?

This is the end of a game of monopoly.

people with money, people we owe money, people who want to trade stuff.

quality of life for wealthy indians & chinese is crap !

only 1% of the UK has stuff built on it, thats a load of REAL land assetts backing the monopoly

[needsleep]

Jeeezus.

He can't help you. Nobody can

[Sourman]

Todays deficit is yesterdays unfunded pension liability.

To project forward decades worth of pension payouts and then equate that to present national debt is specious.

When company pension schemes "black holes" are bandied about something similar is going on.

Pensions are (mostly) paid to UK resident pensioners and spent back into the domestic economy.

Funding this from taxation is not the same thing as owing shedloads to the rest of the world.

Undoubtedly we havebig problems, but I don't think it is helpful to mix chalk with cheese.

Don't spoil it for them for christs' sake. What would they all do if they actually had to think a while.

I suppose we should all start saying that on the day you're born you are actually in debt for all the money you will spend in your life which is the same thing as this load of b*llocks.

[South Lorne]

As chancellor Brown took us into surplus at one point from a deficit he inherited from the Tories in 1997. In 2007/8, just before the crisis really kicked in, the deficit was the same as it was in 1997. The interesting thing is how we managed to go from a really strong position into deficit before the crisis. A lot of the reasons are well understood and centre around piss poor forecasting (which incidentally is continuing under the new government with the puppet OBR and Mervyn King tucked firmly into the coalition's pocket) by government and the BoE with tax receipts falling significantly below expected levels. The bottom line is that in 2007 there was a recognised deficit problem and there were plans to deal with it. The government was kind of caught out really and completely overtaken by events.

...that is what I like about Labour... they re write history:

In 1997 Labour inherited a budget that was actually in balance. After a painful and turbulent decade under the Tories, the public finances had finally been brought under control. But after four years in office Gordon Brown took out the country's credit card and let rip. By the end of 2009-10 our annual deficit had ballooned to £170.8 billion.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

...Gordo inherited the strongest economy in Western Europe and proceeded to destroy it.....

[scottbeard]

333% of GDP is worse than grim--its even beyond catastrophic.

Gordon really dropped us into something we may NEVER recover from.

Yes...insofar as our living standards will be permanently lower from 2008 onwards than they were from 2005-2007. However, in many ways I think he has just speeded up the inevitable transfer of wealth from West to East.

We clearly cannot afford a £4.8 trillion debt including the pension liabilities, so, quite simply, it won't be honoured.

Some compromise will be made on the way, with serious consequences on those who are planning their future (and mortgage payments) based on these 'pension',

Indeed. It may be the end of the world for some individuals, but collectively England will continue to exist much as now. (I say England because I don't know whether the UK union will survive much longer).

It's time to pay the piper. There is no magician who will magic away the debt. Someone is going to have to pay it.

Or just default on him. Sure you won't get any more tunes out of him, but you still won't have to pay.

[needsleep]

...that is what I like about Labour... they re write history:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

...Gordo inherited the strongest economy in Western Europe and proceeded to destroy it.....

That site destroys all its own credibility on the first page. The deficit for 96-97 was 4% of GDP. Check the Treasury archives.

[Velgud]

I can't see a way for this predicament to work itself out in a way that doesn't include significant civil unrest and/or social breakdown.

It's like I can see the monster coming, and I don't have the foggiest idea what to do about it.

there's a simple solution,

1) get free of debt including mortgage (sell up if needs be)

2) start your own online business which doesn't require a physical location

3) go wherever you want, whenever you want and watch the sh1t hit the UK fan while sipping a cocktail with your feet in the pool

I'm looking forward to it

[South Lorne]

That site destroys all its own credibility on the first page. The deficit for 96-97 was 4% of GDP. Check the Treasury archives.

...that site does not claim break even 96/97....the downward trend had been of a reducing deficit from a high in '93 to a surplus in 97/98...the annual measurement would have been compiled after:

The responsibility for gilt issuance and sterling debt management was transferred from the Bank of England to the UK Debt Management Office, an executive agency of HM Treasury, on 1 April 1998. The transfer of cash management is not expected before the end of the year at the earliest.

...as well as taking Bank Supervision away from the BofE to the FSA ... the New Labour Government with Chancellor Brown in the Treasury took over the UK Debt Management with lots of new rules.....no wonder it was about to self destruct....

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/quarterlybulletin/public.htm

[needsleep]

...that site does not claim break even 96/97....

The site is basically full of inaccuracies and heavily loaded to project a certain view. It's a porn site for people who want to believe that Labour profligacy is the sole cause of the debt crisis we face now.

[Realistbear]

The site is basically full of inaccuracies and heavily loaded to project a certain view. It's a porn site for people who want to believe that Labour profligacy is the sole cause of the debt crisis we face now.

The debt crisis was caused by a catastrophic failure of leadership. The sheeple needed shepherding not letting loose to borrow as much as they felt they wanted to to keep up with their neighbour's new Range Rover and £20k kitchen cupboards. If no one is in charge of the economy the cut purses and blaggards will have their field day which is what happened. It began in America was Gordon's only explanation. The fault lies first with TB for allowing Gordon to run the economy when he knew or should have known that debt is NOT a positive thing for an economy and housing bubbles are not either. The "lite touch" coupled with a non-independent BoE was a disaster for our nation and it is the reason why we are 5 TR in debt (including "off balance sheet:" debt).

Labour need to own up to what they did. As it is written: the buck stops with whoever is in charge. TB and GB.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Realistbear

[needsleep]

The debt crisis was caused by a catastrophic failure of leadership. The sheeple needed shepherding not letting loose to borrow as much as they felt they wanted to to keep up with their neighbour's new Range Rover and £20k kitchen cupboards. If no one is in charge of the economy the cut purses and blaggards will have their field day which is what happened. It began in America was Gordon's only explanation. The fault lies first with TB for allowing Gordon to run the economy when he knew or should have known that debt is NOT a positive thing for an economy and housing bubbles are not either. The "lite touch" coupled with a non-independent BoE was a disaster for our nation and it is the reason why we are 5 TR in debt (including "off balance sheet:" debt).

Labour need to own up to what they did. As it is written: the buck stops with whoever is in charge. TB and GB.

Personal debt is certainly one major reason why we are in so much trouble. I wouldn't disagree with that. But the problem is that AAA-rated MBS our banks were exposed to was largely not leveraging debt here in the UK but elsewhere. Almost every major bank in every western economy was heavily exposed to them and also to AAA-rated sovereign debt that went or is going toxic too. The failure lays with the markets not GB. Sure the UK is a major global financial centre but to suggest that lax regulation here, on the part of Labour, is the sole cause of the global crisis is palpably laughable.

The simple question to ask is if the mortgage market in the US had been correctly regulated and the mechanisms to create crazily leveraged products secured against that mortgage debt had not been in place would we be in the trouble we are today. I think the answer is no.

Also, the IEA off-balance sheet unfunded liabilities argument is incredibly weak. People spout that crap as if public pensions were a new invention by Labour in 1997.

[Tired of Waiting]

...that is what I like about Labour... they re write history:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

...Gordo inherited the strongest economy in Western Europe and proceeded to destroy it.....

Exactly!

That post was one of the most unsettling, disturbing post I have ever read around here.

I'm not completely sure why, but probably because that poster seems reasonably literate, and consequently, he is able to link dots. Therefore, the only way he can get to his intended end, ideologically satisfactory for him, is, as you wrote, to "change history" !

The very disturbing thing is that people can be so strongly attached to their ideologies that even reasonably intelligent people can blind themselves from data to achieve that! That is very scary indeed.